Imagine if you combined KD, Gobert, Bird, and Jordan. That is Wembanyama. Rockets or Spurs should tank extremely hard (Mavs are not tanking after going to WCF couple of months ago but maybe they should. Luka and Wemby would break the league.) He is the type of transformative talent that you can build around for a career like Tim Duncan was. He is the type of talent that would instantly add billions of dollars of value to the Rockets or Spurs, and make their teams the number 1 story in all of basketball like the Cavs were for all those years under Lebron. That is why Fertita and SS&E want him so bad.
Victor Wembanyama could possibly become the GOAT
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Last: 1 yr ago by Guitarsoup
I know his highlights are impressive… but tap the brakes on your first line.
I also know 7 foot plus really skinny built prospects have a real real fantastic track record of physically holding up in the NBA.
I also know 7 foot plus really skinny built prospects have a real real fantastic track record of physically holding up in the NBA.
GOAT discussion already? Dayummmmmmm
This man could be the next Duncan, Hakeem, or Dirk for the Spurs, Rockets, or Mavs. Lottery odds are flatter now but everyone should tank for this transformative talent.
The all time NBA player he most resembles is Ralph Sampson. In every single way. Sampson was also called the best prospect ever.
You might want to slow your roll a bit
You might want to slow your roll a bit
Sampson's career would have been much longer with modern medicine. Also Sampson went to 1986 Finals and lost to what many consider to be the greatest team of all time: 1986 Celtics.
2012heisman said:
Sampson's career would have been much longer with modern medicine. Also Sampson went to 1986 Finals and lost to what many consider to be the greatest team of all time: 1986 Celtics.
Yes, I agree that Sampson MIGHT have been better today. But he might not have. Wembayana is 7 foot 5 and weighs 209 pounds. How is Chet doing with the same height, weight, outside shot, etc? That's right, he is hurt.
Wembayana will probably be really good. But the dude will be abused inside and probably be nothing but a spot shooter and shot blocker. Great at both?.... who knows. But GOAT? GIMME A BREAK.
knoxtom said:2012heisman said:
Sampson's career would have been much longer with modern medicine. Also Sampson went to 1986 Finals and lost to what many consider to be the greatest team of all time: 1986 Celtics.
Yes, I agree that Sampson MIGHT have been better today. But he might not have. Wembayana is 7 foot 5 and weighs 209 pounds. How is Chet doing with the same height, weight, outside shot, etc? That's right, he is hurt.
Wembayana will probably be really good. But the dude will be abused inside and probably be nothing but a spot shooter and shot blocker. Great at both?.... who knows. But GOAT? GIMME A BREAK.
Wembanaya is bigger than Chet, much more fluid athletically, and looks like he has a better frame to add weight. Definitely agree that the GOAT talk is absurd, but Wembanaya very likely is the best Prospect of all time. His athleticism, skill level, and incredible size/wingspan is just insane.
Lebron was the best prospect of All Time
would have been #1 overall at 15
would have been #1 overall at 15
Don't be surprised when Wemby ends up on the Lakers next year because 1) The Lakers are terrible and 2) the NBA works extra hard to keep the Lakers (edit: and Lebron) relevant.
The fix is in. That's why the Lakers refuse to get rid of Westbrook, and even start his useless ass. Silver and Lebron already have a handshake deal. Lebron will likely shut it down with a mystery injury in a month or so.
The fix is in. That's why the Lakers refuse to get rid of Westbrook, and even start his useless ass. Silver and Lebron already have a handshake deal. Lebron will likely shut it down with a mystery injury in a month or so.
AG@RICE said:
Don't be surprised when Wemby ends up on the Lakers next year because 1) The Lakers are terrible and 2) the NBA works extra hard to keep the Lakers (edit: and Lebron) relevant.
The fix is in. That's why the Lakers refuse to get rid of Westbrook, and even start his useless ass. Silver and Lebron already have a handshake deal. Lebron will likely shut it down with a mystery injury in a month or so.
The Lakers don't own their pick.
Well David Stern will give the Lakers their pick back
Oh ya, AD trade.Ryan34 said:AG@RICE said:
Don't be surprised when Wemby ends up on the Lakers next year because 1) The Lakers are terrible and 2) the NBA works extra hard to keep the Lakers (edit: and Lebron) relevant.
The fix is in. That's why the Lakers refuse to get rid of Westbrook, and even start his useless ass. Silver and Lebron already have a handshake deal. Lebron will likely shut it down with a mystery injury in a month or so.
The Lakers don't own their pick.
Thanks buddy. I feel like you just talked me out of a Pepe Silvia style episode.
I can go back to enjoying the Laker's misfortune now.
The Pelicans could end up with Zion and Wemby with a solid team already around them.
Even without winning they'll end up a with a solid piece to add to that talented roster.
Even without winning they'll end up a with a solid piece to add to that talented roster.
Ryan34 said:AG@RICE said:
Don't be surprised when Wemby ends up on the Lakers next year because 1) The Lakers are terrible and 2) the NBA works extra hard to keep the Lakers (edit: and Lebron) relevant.
The fix is in. That's why the Lakers refuse to get rid of Westbrook, and even start his useless ass. Silver and Lebron already have a handshake deal. Lebron will likely shut it down with a mystery injury in a month or so.
The Lakers don't own their pick.
Wow
He'll play his first contract with some random team, then move to the Lakers at the ripe age of 22.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
I'm gonna have the massively unpopular opinion that despite Wemby's undeniable talent, I'd rather have Scoot Henderson.
I think Wemby's body will never hold up in the NBA, just like literally every single star player over 7'2 that has ever been in the NBA.
Kristaps: averaging 38 games per season
Yao Ming: Had 4 full seasons. Averaged 54 games/season
Thabeet: Was he injured or just sucked? IDK, but wasted #2 pick over Harden and Curry
Sabonis: Had tons of major leg injuries before he was able to come to the NBA and only played over 27mpg once.
Ralph Sampson: Had 3 great seasons, before injuries took over. Last 6 seasons, averaged 35 games/season, 23mpg, 9 points, 6 boards, 1 block. Averaged 50games/season for his career, out of the league after 9 seasons.
Rik Smits: Had feet nerve damage and had multiple foot, ankle, knee, and back surgeries. Career high of 7.7rpg, never averaged over 30mpg. Most surgeries in off-season, so didn't miss tons of games. Just couldn't be the primary guy he was expected to be due to limited minutes due to injuries. 1x All-Star, 0x All-NBA.
Mark Eaton: Never expected or asked to be a primary guy, but was an elite shot blocker. Career high of 9ppg, but also had 456 blocks in one seas (5.6bpg) Possibly part gorilla.
Shawn Bradley: Surprisingly didn't miss a ton of games, but did blow out his knee early in his career. Only averaged over 30mpg once. Career highs of 13ppg and 8 rpg. Sadly paralyzed now after a car hit him.
Manute Bol: averaged 62games/season. Only topped 18mpg twice.
Gheorghe Muresean: Played 3 full seasons, but never averaged 30mpg. Forgot to wear his orthopedic shoes one day while filming My Giant with Billy Crystal and it ****ed him up so much it was essentially career ending. Played 43games/season.
Zydrunas Illgaksas: Played 5 or fewer games in three seasons. Averaged 56games/season. Made two all-star games and had a good overall career. Always had nice footwork and a soft touch, but those broken bones in his feet and ankles slowed him down a lot.
Z's prime years (03-06 next to Bron) he was a 16/8 player in 31mpg.
Ralph put up 21/11 his first three seasons and made it to the Finals.
Eaton did his job of clogging the lane. His peak from 85-89 had him with 8points/9.5r/4.4b in 33mpg.
Smits prime of 94-98 had him producing 17/7 in 29mpg.
Ming was healthy his first three seasons, then his 7th season. Statistically, his best seasons were the half seasons he played in his 4th, 5th, and 6th seasons where he averaged 23/10 next to TMac. He was a 16/9 player his first three seasons when he was healthy.
Sabonis was a 14/9 player his first four years in the NBA, but that was after a bunch of major injuries and he was already in his 30s.
This season is Kristaps' best so far. Oh wow, it's a contract year. Has he been talking to Trevor Ariza? He's missed at least 15 games every year since his rookie year when he only missed 10.
I'm gonna bet on history. Zion may be the best player taken in the 2019 draft, but he has only played 114 games in 4 seasons. I'd rather have Ja Morant, who has his team 2nd in the Western Conference and has played 231 games.
And it isn't like Wemby is injury free. He played just 33 of 76 games last year. He missed the playoffs last year and a lot of the season with lower back muscle injuries. He missed ~4 months with stress fractures in his lower legs. He missed two months with a bone contusion of his shoulder blade. He missed a month with a broken finger.
Broken finger doesn't really bother me. It happens in basketball. Two months with a shoulder blade bruise? That sounds bad. But lower back muscle problems and stress fractures in lower legs for guys that are over 7' tall have to be extremely concerning. Especially when those injuries make them mis dozens of games and multiple months of basketball. Big men with back and lower leg problems seems to always have back and lower leg problems.
I think Wemby's body will never hold up in the NBA, just like literally every single star player over 7'2 that has ever been in the NBA.
Kristaps: averaging 38 games per season
Yao Ming: Had 4 full seasons. Averaged 54 games/season
Thabeet: Was he injured or just sucked? IDK, but wasted #2 pick over Harden and Curry
Sabonis: Had tons of major leg injuries before he was able to come to the NBA and only played over 27mpg once.
Ralph Sampson: Had 3 great seasons, before injuries took over. Last 6 seasons, averaged 35 games/season, 23mpg, 9 points, 6 boards, 1 block. Averaged 50games/season for his career, out of the league after 9 seasons.
Rik Smits: Had feet nerve damage and had multiple foot, ankle, knee, and back surgeries. Career high of 7.7rpg, never averaged over 30mpg. Most surgeries in off-season, so didn't miss tons of games. Just couldn't be the primary guy he was expected to be due to limited minutes due to injuries. 1x All-Star, 0x All-NBA.
Mark Eaton: Never expected or asked to be a primary guy, but was an elite shot blocker. Career high of 9ppg, but also had 456 blocks in one seas (5.6bpg) Possibly part gorilla.
Shawn Bradley: Surprisingly didn't miss a ton of games, but did blow out his knee early in his career. Only averaged over 30mpg once. Career highs of 13ppg and 8 rpg. Sadly paralyzed now after a car hit him.
Manute Bol: averaged 62games/season. Only topped 18mpg twice.
Gheorghe Muresean: Played 3 full seasons, but never averaged 30mpg. Forgot to wear his orthopedic shoes one day while filming My Giant with Billy Crystal and it ****ed him up so much it was essentially career ending. Played 43games/season.
Zydrunas Illgaksas: Played 5 or fewer games in three seasons. Averaged 56games/season. Made two all-star games and had a good overall career. Always had nice footwork and a soft touch, but those broken bones in his feet and ankles slowed him down a lot.
Z's prime years (03-06 next to Bron) he was a 16/8 player in 31mpg.
Ralph put up 21/11 his first three seasons and made it to the Finals.
Eaton did his job of clogging the lane. His peak from 85-89 had him with 8points/9.5r/4.4b in 33mpg.
Smits prime of 94-98 had him producing 17/7 in 29mpg.
Ming was healthy his first three seasons, then his 7th season. Statistically, his best seasons were the half seasons he played in his 4th, 5th, and 6th seasons where he averaged 23/10 next to TMac. He was a 16/9 player his first three seasons when he was healthy.
Sabonis was a 14/9 player his first four years in the NBA, but that was after a bunch of major injuries and he was already in his 30s.
This season is Kristaps' best so far. Oh wow, it's a contract year. Has he been talking to Trevor Ariza? He's missed at least 15 games every year since his rookie year when he only missed 10.
I'm gonna bet on history. Zion may be the best player taken in the 2019 draft, but he has only played 114 games in 4 seasons. I'd rather have Ja Morant, who has his team 2nd in the Western Conference and has played 231 games.
And it isn't like Wemby is injury free. He played just 33 of 76 games last year. He missed the playoffs last year and a lot of the season with lower back muscle injuries. He missed ~4 months with stress fractures in his lower legs. He missed two months with a bone contusion of his shoulder blade. He missed a month with a broken finger.
Broken finger doesn't really bother me. It happens in basketball. Two months with a shoulder blade bruise? That sounds bad. But lower back muscle problems and stress fractures in lower legs for guys that are over 7' tall have to be extremely concerning. Especially when those injuries make them mis dozens of games and multiple months of basketball. Big men with back and lower leg problems seems to always have back and lower leg problems.
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If the Rockets land him, future GOAT.
If another team lands him, he's a rich man's Bol Bol.
If another team lands him, he's a rich man's Bol Bol.
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The only difference between Wemby and every other player on that list (minus rookie year Porzingis) is that they were all plodding big men. Wembanyama is closer to KD in terms of using his length/height in a guard-like way and even closer to Giannis in using both of those things to do freakishly 2K-like feats of athleticism. He doesn't suck the air out of the arena like Giannis does, but watching him hesi, split a defense, go underneath and either dunk or finger roll barely leaving the ground is...terrifying.
Injuries are definitely a concern for anyone in the height range, but he couldn't be anymore different than some like Yao. But then again who knows. He's Wemby is like a turbo version of Chet Holmgren and that kid already missed his entire rookie season.
Injuries are definitely a concern for anyone in the height range, but he couldn't be anymore different than some like Yao. But then again who knows. He's Wemby is like a turbo version of Chet Holmgren and that kid already missed his entire rookie season.
Yao had also broken his feet multiple times before he even got to the NBA, though. I think a lot of those guys were expected to be more mobile than they were limited to because of their injuries.Head Ninja In Charge said:
The only difference between Wemby and every other player on that list (minus rookie year Porzingis) is that they were all plodding big men. Wembanyama is closer to KD in terms of using his length/height in a guard-like way and even closer to Giannis in using both of those things to do freakishly 2K-like feats of athleticism. He doesn't suck the air out of the arena like Giannis does, but watching him hesi, split a defense, go underneath and either dunk or finger roll barely leaving the ground is...terrifying.
Injuries are definitely a concern for anyone in the height range, but he couldn't be anymore different than some like Yao. But then again who knows. He's Wemby is like a turbo version of Chet Holmgren and that kid already missed his entire rookie season.
As far as his game goes, I agree that a Durant that is >6" is probably the best comparison.
But I don't think that is better for his prospective health status. We are expecting a 7'4 and growing guy to run the break and play on the perimeter and not expect him to get injured?
I think expecting a guy like him to play like a taller Durant is even worse for his injury prospects. Durant blew out his foot and missed most of the season when he was ~25 then tore his achilles and missed a year and a half fice years later. He'll shoot over pretty much everyone that guards him like Dirk, but he will be shoved around like crazy because people will throw strong guys that DGAF like the Morris twins and Steven Adams.
To go to the title, he's gonna have to get through Jokic, Gobert, Adams, AntDavis, Ayton, Giannis, Embiid, Sabonis, Vicevucicic, Jonas/Zion, etc. With a ton of injuries already in Europe and a 7'4 210lb frame, I think he will have a tough time adjusting to the NBA's physicality until he can add weight, but adding weight also will make it harder on his feet, knees, ankles, and back.
This is a tough argument. I love Scoot's game and think I feel pretty confident he will get to an All-Star level eventually. He has a pretty clear floor as a really good lead guard, but I think his outside shooting ultimately keeps his upside just short of superstar level.
Versus Wemby who has clear superstar upside with a lot more risk. I think I definitely lean in the direction of Wemby who could be a top 5 player in the league IF he stays healthy. I can totally understand the argument in the other direction though.
Versus Wemby who has clear superstar upside with a lot more risk. I think I definitely lean in the direction of Wemby who could be a top 5 player in the league IF he stays healthy. I can totally understand the argument in the other direction though.
Morant is hitting 32% of his 3s this year. 27/8/6 for the #2 team in the Western Conference.coastalAg said:
This is a tough argument. I love Scoot's game and think I feel pretty confident he will get to an All-Star level eventually. He has a pretty clear floor as a really good lead guard, but I think his outside shooting ultimately keeps his upside just short of superstar level.
Versus Wemby who has clear superstar upside with a lot more risk. I think I definitely lean in the direction of Wemby who could be a top 5 player in the league IF he stays healthy. I can totally understand the argument in the other direction though.
Not that I want Scoot to end up like Westbrook, but Brodie never topped 34% became an MVP and stat-padded his way to averaging a triple-double in 4 different seasons.
Iverson was a 31% lifetime 3pt shooter. Rose was a 32% 3pt shooter as an MVP. Kobe was a career 33% shooter from deep.
There was never a 7 footer that could play like Durant until Durant did it. Maybe Wemby will be the first to do it at 7'4''. Even if it means Wemby misses a year every once in a while for injury, if he gives you 10 years of Durant production then he's the clear #1 pick.
The draft has a kid like Scoot Henderson every single year, and usually at least a couple like him. The spurs can find that player one way or another. Whoever gets Wemby will have the one and only version of that player. Whether that ends up as a good or bad thing, time will tell, but I tend to think you take Wemby and say the injury concerns are worth the upside of having a guy on your team that no one else has.
The draft has a kid like Scoot Henderson every single year, and usually at least a couple like him. The spurs can find that player one way or another. Whoever gets Wemby will have the one and only version of that player. Whether that ends up as a good or bad thing, time will tell, but I tend to think you take Wemby and say the injury concerns are worth the upside of having a guy on your team that no one else has.
Quote:
There was never a 7 footer that could play like Durant until Durant did it. Maybe Wemby will be the first to do it at 7'4''.
Durant is 6'9. Elite scorer for sure, but he isn't a unicorn. Larry Bird was tall (6'9) SF that was an elite scorer, but also a better defender, rebounder and passer. LeBron is another tall SF, but again, much better defender, rebounder, passer.
Quote:
Even if it means Wemby misses a year every once in a while for injury, if he gives you 10 years of Durant production then he's the clear #1 pick.
Yeah, sure, if he gave you 10 elite years, I'd agree. But I don't think he will do that. Yao gave 4 full seasons. Sampson gave three full seasons. Kristaps gave one full season.
If this was true, there would be dozens of elite PGs like him in the NBA. That just isn't true. If that was true, the Spurs and other teams wouldn't have difficulty finding a dynamic, elite PG. We've essentially had one in the entire history of the Spurs in the NBA and Tony Parker's peak (06-13) he was essentially a 19/6 guy. That's not exactly Ja Morant.Quote:
The draft has a kid like Scoot Henderson every single year, and usually at least a couple like him.
Really? Then why haven't they been able to do that ever?Quote:
The spurs can find that player one way or another.
Zion is essentially a guy no one else has. And in his 4th season, the Pelicans may possibly hit 40 wins, but they haven't in his first 3 seasons, because he just isn't on the court.Quote:
Whoever gets Wemby will have the one and only version of that player. Whether that ends up as a good or bad thing, time will tell, but I tend to think you take Wemby and say the injury concerns are worth the upside of having a guy on your team that no one else has.
NBA history and his own personal injury history is stacked against Wemby.
I don't think anyone will pass on him for the reasons you said. But I also don't think he will have the best career or the players in the draft.
Scoot may end up being the best of these type of players, but every team has a 6'4" guy that fills it up. The spurs currently have Keldon Johnson and Devin Vassel filling that role. Last year we had Dejounte Murray, and I'd say you're being a bit dramatic if you think there hasn't been a PG on this team since TP. Murray filled up the stat sheet like crazy and rightfully brought a huge return. The spurs traded Murray because they knew when the time was right they could find someone at least kind of like him.
Other 6'2'' - 6'5'' guys who fill it up
Don Mitchell
Ja Morant
Tyrese Maxey
Tyrese Haliburton
D'Aaron Fox
Devin Booker
Tyler Herro
Dame Lilliard
CJ McCollum
Anthony Edwards
Anfernee Simmons
Shea Gilgeous Alexander
etc
Maybe Scoot is better than all of those guys, but I'm betting that he's just another guy on that list that could average 25 if you put the ball in his hands enough.
Not worth arguing on the height of KD, but no one has ever been able to shoot over people at the shooting % he does. He's basically the most efficient perimeter scorer ever. If Victor is even close to that in peak form, it changes how your team can play basketball and opens up everything for the rest of the team.
Other 6'2'' - 6'5'' guys who fill it up
Don Mitchell
Ja Morant
Tyrese Maxey
Tyrese Haliburton
D'Aaron Fox
Devin Booker
Tyler Herro
Dame Lilliard
CJ McCollum
Anthony Edwards
Anfernee Simmons
Shea Gilgeous Alexander
etc
Maybe Scoot is better than all of those guys, but I'm betting that he's just another guy on that list that could average 25 if you put the ball in his hands enough.
Not worth arguing on the height of KD, but no one has ever been able to shoot over people at the shooting % he does. He's basically the most efficient perimeter scorer ever. If Victor is even close to that in peak form, it changes how your team can play basketball and opens up everything for the rest of the team.
This is a beyond absurd take. Just like your list below. Keldon and Vassell aren't dynamic point guards.Quote:
Scoot may end up being the best of these type of players, but every team has a 6'4" guy that fills it up.The spurs currently have Keldon Johnson and Devin Vassel filling that role.
Most expect Scoot to be Ja Morant 2.0.
Murray is a very good all-around player, but he isn't anything like what Scoot is expected to be.Quote:
Last year we had Dejounte Murray, and I'd say you're being a bit dramatic if you think there hasn't been a PG on this team since TP. Murray filled up the stat sheet like crazy and rightfully brought a huge return.
The spurs traded Murray because they knew when the time was right they could find someone at least kind of like him.
SCOOT SLAM 😳
— The Athletic (@TheAthletic) January 4, 2023
18-year-old Scoot Henderson with a poster dunk for the G League Ignite.
🎥 @nbagleague pic.twitter.com/n8NhPaD8ZV
Oh yeah, I remember DeJounte doing this night in and night out.
Quote:
Other 6'2'' - 6'5'' guys who fill it up
Don Mitchell
Ja Morant
Tyrese Maxey
Tyrese Haliburton
D'Aaron Fox
Devin Booker
Tyler Herro
Dame Lilliard
CJ McCollum
Anthony Edwards
Anfernee Simmons
Shea Gilgeous Alexander
etc
That this is the list you came up with shows you don't really understand what most people think he is expected to be. He isn't a volume scorer. He is more likely to be like Morant or Halliburton. McCollum, Herro, Booker, Simoons? GTFO, he is not expected to be like those guys.
Based on no knowledge? No one expects him to just be a volume scorer. Athletically, he is constantly compared to young Westbrook, Ja Morant, etc. He is considered that level of prospect.Quote:
Maybe Scoot is better than all of those guys, but I'm betting that he's just another guy on that list that could average 25 if you put the ball in his hands enough.
Here's SI's profile: https://www.si.com/nba/draft/prospect-profiles/nba-draft-scouting-report-g-league-ignites-scoot-henderson
DraftRoom's: https://nbadraftroom.com/scoot-henderson/
TheAthletic: https://theathletic.com/4072158/2023/01/12/scoot-henderson-nba-draft-profile/
Vecenie: https://theathletic.com/4066178/2023/01/12/nba-mock-draft-2023-wembanyama-henderson-whitmore-miller/ (Says that Scoot would have been #1 overall if eligible in the 22 or 20 drafts.
But you compare him to CJ McCollum and DeJounte Murray?
Quote:
Not worth arguing on the height of KD
Because he isn't 7 feet like you said, is that why?
The NBA Combine where Durant famously failed to lift 185lbs once:
6'9, 6'10 with shoes with massive wing span. You know, just like I said.
What? There has never been an efficient tall perimeter shooter?Quote:
but no one has ever been able to shoot over people at the shooting % he does. He's basically the most efficient perimeter scorer ever.
/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-dmn.s3.amazonaws.com/public/4Q7NYN23H472ETLFCZGFXG66SQ.jpg)
Peja was obviously never the slasher that Durant was, but he was listed as 6'10, actual probably 6'9 and absolutely shot it over everyone.
In his prime years, Peja shot 47/41/90 splits. Now, I am not saying he is remotely the player that Durant was, but his entire thing was shooting effectively over everyone else.
If he ever gets/stays healthy, Michael Porter was 6'9.5 barefoot at the combine. His career shooting is 51%/42%. But he's played 160 games in 5 seasons.
Sure, if Wemby develops a 3pt shot. In Europe, it is closer than the NBA (22'2" vs 23'9") and he is hitting just 29% on almost 6 threes a game. Now Russell Westbrook thinks that is elite, but it isn't exactly Durant's shot.Quote:
If Victor is even close to that in peak form, it changes how your team can play basketball and opens up everything for the rest of the team.
I kind of like the John Wall comp for Scoot. He certainly clears some of the guys listed above and may be a better prospect than anyone else in the last several classes. Hes a total stud.
Maybe he ends up with enough volume that his numbers get him into the MVP discussion. Im not sure if that is the best version of himself. That is my main question.
I am honestly pretty torn between the two and will probably change my mind several times. I just need the Rockets to get a top 2 pick. Picking three or below would be a big blow.
Maybe he ends up with enough volume that his numbers get him into the MVP discussion. Im not sure if that is the best version of himself. That is my main question.
I am honestly pretty torn between the two and will probably change my mind several times. I just need the Rockets to get a top 2 pick. Picking three or below would be a big blow.
Probably a solid comparison.coastalAg said:
I kind of like the John Wall comp for Scoot. He certainly clears some of the guys listed above and may be a better prospect than anyone else in the last several classes. Hes a total stud.
Maybe he ends up with enough volume that his numbers get him into the MVP discussion. Im not sure if that is the best version of himself. That is my main question.
I am honestly pretty torn between the two and will probably change my mind several times. I just need the Rockets to get a top 2 pick. Picking three or below would be a big blow.
Wall was a huge stud before injuries, but I think Scoot will be a better scorer. May or may not be as good a passer as Wall was. Wall's 5 straight all-star seasons, he put up 20/10 with 1.8 steals, but was not an efficient scorer. Also important to note that Wall's teammates weren't great and his coaching was pretty bad. The type of player he becomes will be influenced a lot by the coaching he has. By all accounts, he is a very hard worker.
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A 6'2" super athletic combo guard with great scoring feel? Why would we treat him any differently than Donovan Mitchell? I'm not seeing it.
Because he is a lead guard, not a combo. Mitchell is more of an undersized SG. Westbrook, Wall, Ja seem to be the common comparisons.Head Ninja In Charge said:
A 6'2" super athletic combo guard with great scoring feel? Why would we treat him any differently than Donovan Mitchell? I'm not seeing it.
That includes the Pelicans most years.Guitarsoup said:
Zion is essentially a guy no one else has.
I will say this, if the Rockets land Frenchy, I'm back on board watching every single game. if they pull a Texans and win too much to have a great shot at the #1 pick, it'll be back to hitting the snooze button the franchise.
The Porkchop Express said:That includes the Pelicans most years.Guitarsoup said:
Zion is essentially a guy no one else has.
I will say this, if the Rockets land Frenchy, I'm back on board watching every single game. if they pull a Texans and win too much to have a great shot at the #1 pick, it'll be back to hitting the snooze button the franchise.
Zion is exactly my point with Wemby. He's averaging like 30 games/year
Rockets won't win too many games, but top 3 teams have three same odds and 4 & 5 five are just slightly below
I don't totally discount some of your arguments and I'll give you the Dirk comparison to a degree, but he was still never able to run the break like KD can. Maybe the best way to put it is that KD makes plays in the open court that guys his size just don't usually make. He can run the break, initiate the offense, stretch the floor, and also score from the post. If not for the presence of Lebron, we'd be talking about KD as the guy to compare to MJ.
You're obviously all on board with Scoot, which is fine, if the Spurs draft him I hope he's a HOF talent.
In this new era of positionless basketball I think you're putting too much thought into this idea of "lead" guard as well. As long as you can get the ball up the court and into your offense you're good. Today that happens in many different ways, just look at Jokic for proof of that.
The real key for Scoot will be if he makes the guys around him better. Maybe he will and maybe he won't. And if John Wall is the comp, then that doesn't really get me excited. If you gave me a choice of KD or Wall, I take KD 100% of the time.
Finally, if you're so concerned with injuries, Ja is an interesting comp to bring in. The whole playoffs last year the commentators were talking about how Ja won't last in the league unless he learns to play more under control. I love highlight dunks as much as the next guy, but don't show a dunk from Scoot in the G league as proof of his stardom. Lots of guys can dunk and fly when they are young, but they are just as likely to get injured and lose that explosion as they get older. Blake Griffin can barely get down the court let alone dunk now, John Wall has also lost most of the explosion that made him great. A dunk no matter how great is only worth 2 points.
Feel free to bookmark this, but I'm on record that Scoot is more likely to be a guy who can fill it up and get his than a guy that leads you to championships.
You're obviously all on board with Scoot, which is fine, if the Spurs draft him I hope he's a HOF talent.
In this new era of positionless basketball I think you're putting too much thought into this idea of "lead" guard as well. As long as you can get the ball up the court and into your offense you're good. Today that happens in many different ways, just look at Jokic for proof of that.
The real key for Scoot will be if he makes the guys around him better. Maybe he will and maybe he won't. And if John Wall is the comp, then that doesn't really get me excited. If you gave me a choice of KD or Wall, I take KD 100% of the time.
Finally, if you're so concerned with injuries, Ja is an interesting comp to bring in. The whole playoffs last year the commentators were talking about how Ja won't last in the league unless he learns to play more under control. I love highlight dunks as much as the next guy, but don't show a dunk from Scoot in the G league as proof of his stardom. Lots of guys can dunk and fly when they are young, but they are just as likely to get injured and lose that explosion as they get older. Blake Griffin can barely get down the court let alone dunk now, John Wall has also lost most of the explosion that made him great. A dunk no matter how great is only worth 2 points.
Feel free to bookmark this, but I'm on record that Scoot is more likely to be a guy who can fill it up and get his than a guy that leads you to championships.
Quote:
I don't totally discount some of your arguments and I'll give you the Dirk comparison to a degree, but he was still never able to run the break like KD can. Maybe the best way to put it is that KD makes plays in the open court that guys his size just don't usually make. He can run the break, initiate the offense, stretch the floor, and also score from the post. If not for the presence of Lebron, we'd be talking about KD as the guy to compare to MJ.
I do agree that KD is an absolutely elite player that does stuff other guys can't do. His shooting is on par with Dirk, but is a much better offensive weapon in most other offensive facets of the game.
He certainly has the physical tools to be a player like Ja or a smarter Westbrook.Quote:
You're obviously all on board with Scoot, which is fine, if the Spurs draft him I hope he's a HOF talent.
You still need ball handlers. You can run the entire offense through Jokic, but Murray is still bringing the ball up the court.Quote:
In this new era of positionless basketball I think you're putting too much thought into this idea of "lead" guard as well. As long as you can get the ball up the court and into your offense you're good. Today that happens in many different ways, just look at Jokic for proof of that.
Top West teams:
- DEN: Jokic is their best playmaker, but Murray is a 20/6/4 player.
- MEM: Ja Morant is the most similar player to what I think Scoot will be.
- SAC: Sabonis is a poor man's Jokic, but they also have Swiper putting up 24/6/4.
- DAL: Luka and Kyrie. Kyrie is more of a traditional PG, and Luka is more like the modern bigger playmaker.
- PHX: Point God.
- LAC: I think a big part of the Clippers struggles have been their lack of a primary ball handler and their reliance of PG13 and QuittinKawhi to be their primary playmakers. That's probably why they just made the moves to get Bones Hyland.
Top East Teams:
- BOS: Tatum and Brown are their superstars, but they have surrounded them with Smart, White, and Brogdon to run the point.
- MIL: Giannis can do it all, but they still traded Bledsoe and a dozen firsts for Jrue Holiday to run the point. And the pushed them to a title.
- 76ers: Had Simmons as a non-traditional PG and moved to Harden as more of a traditional scoring PG.
- CLE: Darius Garland running the point with DM at SG.
- MIA: They are struggling and I think a part of it is Lowry being so much less effective than he was with the Raptors. When they went to the Finals last, Butler was better as lead playmaker and they had Dragic, too.
- NYK: Essentially their best season since early Melo years. They paid up for Brunson and it has worked out.
It's more positionless in that you can run the point from multiple places, but even teams with great playmaking bigs like Jokic and Giannis are paying a lot to get a great PG next to them.
Sure, KD and Wall are vastly different players. Talking about a MVP vs an All-Star. KD also spent most of his career with pretty great coaches. Donovan, Kerr, Nash.Also, Durant spent his entire career with elite teammates. Wall was the only person for Washington. Durant played with Russ, Harden, Ibaka, Enes Freedom, Adams, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond, Iggy, Kyrie Irving, DeAndre Jordan, TheMarcus, Blake Griffin - and now Chris Paul, Devin Booker, and Ayton. Wall had Gortet and pre-AS Beal with ****ty coaches.Quote:
The real key for Scoot will be if he makes the guys around him better. Maybe he will and maybe he won't. And if John Wall is the comp, then that doesn't really get me excited. If you gave me a choice of KD or Wall, I take KD 100% of the time.
Quote:
Finally, if you're so concerned with injuries, Ja is an interesting comp to bring in. The whole playoffs last year the commentators were talking about how Ja won't last in the league unless he learns to play more under control. I love highlight dunks as much as the next guy, but don't show a dunk from Scoot in the G league as proof of his stardom. Lots of guys can dunk and fly when they are young, but they are just as likely to get injured and lose that explosion as they get older. Blake Griffin can barely get down the court let alone dunk now, John Wall has also lost most of the explosion that made him great. A dunk no matter how great is only worth 2 points.
It's simply an example of his athleticism. It is something that many guys don't have.
Griffin is about to turn 34 and is a PF. He sprained his left knee then tore cartilage in his right knee as a fish at OU. He had arthroscopic surgery on his knee and OU rushed him back before he was ready. Then his rookie year, he blew out his knee before his first game. Before he turned 20, he had surgery on both knees.
Sure, Wall lost his athleticism after multiple injuries and some athletic guys like him or Rose have injuries. Just the nature of the beast in sports.
But there are also lots of extremely athletic guys in that 6'2-6'6 range that never have debilitating injuries. Westbrook still had his explosiveness in his 13th year, when he averaged a triple-double at 22/12/12.
Jordan still led the league in scoring in his last year in Chicago. Not counting the half-baseball season, it was 10-straight seasons where he led the league. He missed 7 games over those 10 years.
But there is not a single 7'3 or taller player in NBA history that has played at an All-NBA-level for a bunch of years. To expect a guy that is 7'4 and possibly growing to have a Durant-type career when he already has had major back problems and lower leg stress fractures is unrealistic.
Sure, a player of any size can be hurt. But there are lots of guys in the sub-6'6 range with very healthy careers. There isn't a single guy above 7'2 that you can say that about.
I just hope he doesn't end up in one of the black hole franchises where talent goes to die.Quote:
Feel free to bookmark this, but I'm on record that Scoot is more likely to be a guy who can fill it up and get his than a guy that leads you to championships.
Rockets need to bribe the commisioner to use that dry ice to pull out the winning lotto ball like when the Knicks got Ewing.
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