Bird vs Lebron

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Texas A&M
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1:18p, 3/3/22
This graphic has popped up on my twitter feed a few times over the last couple of days. It does make you wonder, if you could have either player for their five best years, who would you take?



If the question was you could have either for their whole career the obvious answer is Lebron. If it is just five years I'd go with Bird. It kind of reminds me of the Dream vs Duncan discussion. For their peak 5-7 years, Dream is the easy & obvious answer, but for the whole career it goes to Duncan.
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Ulrich
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In reply to Texas A&M • 3:31p, 3/3/22
For players that great, I don't think there's an easy and obvious answer about the peak.

On a pure statistical basis, one thing I've always wanted to do is a normalized PER type statistic to account for the fact that certain players played in eras where, for example, blocks were more common because the game was played inside out. Hakeem got a lot more blocks than Duncan, but tons of guys were racking up huge block statistics in the 80s and 90s. By the 2000s the league was shifting to a more perimeter based ball movement style with fewer block opportunities.

EDIT: Hakeem/Duncan isn't my point, hopefully we don't derail. Put Larry Bird into a 2015-2022 offense and he would put up insane shooting stats.
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Head Ninja In Charge
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9:29a, 3/4/22
AG
I love Larry Bird. Dude was an absolute monster. But LeBron is the second-best basketball player of all-time with a case for being number one. He's a better passer, defender, and athlete than Bird.

LeBron is the best SF in NBA history and it's not really close. This is all coming from someone who is not a LeBron fan.
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MGS
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9:48a, 3/4/22
As a GM, Bird was light years better than LeBron.
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500,000ags
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2:39p, 3/4/22
AG
Yeah, LeBron > Bird. Not quite sure the point of this though.
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zooguy96
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6:33p, 3/4/22
Bird. Just as good a player numbers wise and you don't have to deal with Queen James' pettiness - I.e. he'll leave if you don't kiss his ass.
I know a lot about a little, and a little about a lot.
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Texas A&M
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11:14a, 3/6/22
I think a couple of y'all are missing the parameters of this discussion. Again, I'm not talking over their whole career, because that's obviously Lebron. But for their best five years I'd go with Bird. And whoever said Lebron was a better passer, that's the one area IMO where Bird was definitely better.

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Iowaggie
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5:33p, 3/6/22
AG
Would take peak Bird over LeBron....probably.

For a career, it's LeBron, of course.

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zooguy96
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5:43p, 3/6/22
I dunno why you'd want Queen James. She'll leave you in 3-4 years.
I know a lot about a little, and a little about a lot.
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JW
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9:14p, 3/6/22
AG
I think Bird is an easy pick given the parameters. Just as Lebron being the easy pick over a career, which is how most will judge.
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Head Ninja In Charge
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In reply to Texas A&M • 7:35a, 3/7/22
AG
Your original graphic which states the parameters, peak player vs. peak player, literally highlights the fact that LeBron was a better passer.

I'm sorry, but peak LeBron whether we're using a 5-year peak, 3-year peak, single season peak, or them on their best night would destroy Larry Bird.
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NoahAg
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In reply to Head Ninja In Charge • 10:55a, 3/7/22
Head Ninja In Charge said:
Your original graphic which states the parameters, peak player vs. peak player, literally highlights the fact that LeBron was a better passer.

I'm sorry, but peak LeBron whether we're using a 5-year peak, 3-year peak, single season peak, or them on their best night would destroy Larry Bird.
6.9 vs 6.8 assists per game? Not exactly overwhelming. Also to consider:

-What was the average NBA game score during Bird's stretch compared to the LeBron stretch? I'm guessing teams were scoring 10+ fewer points/game in the Bird era; meaning Larry was responsible for a higher % of his teams' points.

-Do we even need to talk about how much tougher teams were allowed to defend in the 80s compared to today? LeBron is obviously a physical freak, but he would have had to work harder to battle against the Oakleys and Lambeers of the 80s.

-Offense. Bird's 27 ppg would translate to 30+ today, considering the emphasis on 3-pt shooting.
Let's go, Brandon!
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500,000ags
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In reply to NoahAg • 11:27a, 3/7/22
AG
Points were flowing in the 80s. Before I was born, but I remember being shocked when I looked it up.
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zooguy96
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In reply to NoahAg • 12:03p, 3/7/22
NoahAg said:
Head Ninja In Charge said:
Your original graphic which states the parameters, peak player vs. peak player, literally highlights the fact that LeBron was a better passer.

I'm sorry, but peak LeBron whether we're using a 5-year peak, 3-year peak, single season peak, or them on their best night would destroy Larry Bird.
6.9 vs 6.8 assists per game? Not exactly overwhelming. Also to consider:

-What was the average NBA game score during Bird's stretch compared to the LeBron stretch? I'm guessing teams were scoring 10+ fewer points/game in the Bird era; meaning Larry was responsible for a higher % of his teams' points.

-Do we even need to talk about how much tougher teams were allowed to defend in the 80s compared to today? LeBron is obviously a physical freak, but he would have had to work harder to battle against the Oakleys and Lambeers of the 80s.

-Offense. Bird's 27 ppg would translate to 30+ today, considering the emphasis on 3-pt shooting.


Yeah, the way the NBA is played now is weak - just like Queen James' mental fortitude. The dude flops. Bird never flopped. Neither did MJ. He's mentally weak and a diva who only wins when he's with his super friends. The Queen would suffer the way the NBA used to be played.

Doesn't mean he's not one of the most physically gifted players ever.

He just doesn't have the other intangibles.
I know a lot about a little, and a little about a lot.
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Head Ninja In Charge
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In reply to NoahAg • 1:34p, 3/7/22
AG
This guy just dropped a 50-burger last night at 37 years old with minimum help. LeBron is literally the same size as Oakley and twice as quick/fast as Bird. I honestly don't see how it's comparable.
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Head Ninja In Charge
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In reply to zooguy96 • 1:36p, 3/7/22
AG
What other intangibles? He won a championship for the CAVALIERS. The CLEVELAND CAVALIERS. Against a 73-9 team.
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M.C. Swag
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1:56p, 3/7/22
AG
Bird would probably be a more efficient scorer in today's nba, but he would struggle defensively against today's athletes. Lebron is a complete player in every facet of the game. Love him or hate him, his peak is higher than any player in nba history outside of MJ.
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M.C. Swag
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In reply to zooguy96 • 2:32p, 3/7/22
AG
zooguy96 said:
NoahAg said:
Head Ninja In Charge said:
Your original graphic which states the parameters, peak player vs. peak player, literally highlights the fact that LeBron was a better passer.

I'm sorry, but peak LeBron whether we're using a 5-year peak, 3-year peak, single season peak, or them on their best night would destroy Larry Bird.
6.9 vs 6.8 assists per game? Not exactly overwhelming. Also to consider:

-What was the average NBA game score during Bird's stretch compared to the LeBron stretch? I'm guessing teams were scoring 10+ fewer points/game in the Bird era; meaning Larry was responsible for a higher % of his teams' points.

-Do we even need to talk about how much tougher teams were allowed to defend in the 80s compared to today? LeBron is obviously a physical freak, but he would have had to work harder to battle against the Oakleys and Lambeers of the 80s.

-Offense. Bird's 27 ppg would translate to 30+ today, considering the emphasis on 3-pt shooting.


Yeah, the way the NBA is played now is weak - just like Queen James' mental fortitude. The dude flops. Bird never flopped. Neither did MJ. He's mentally weak and a diva who only wins when he's with his super friends. The Queen would suffer the way the NBA used to be played.

Doesn't mean he's not one of the most physically gifted players ever.

He just doesn't have the other intangibles.
You love posting this **** despite how insanely inaccurate it is.
  • The NBA is littered with more talent across the league than than at any point in MJ's career. MJ would undoubtedly still be great in today's league, but he'd be horrified trying to guard a guy like Kevin Durant.
  • You casually forget that 80/90s defenses weren't allowed to play zone...or literally double team any other player that didn't have the ball (ie - denying a player like jordan off ball from getting possession, which is what any modern nba team would do the second a player like rodman got it).
  • Lebron's focus and determination are what brought him out of poverty in a single parent household to become 1 of the most successful people on the planet. The sheer force of will it must have taken for him to avoid any 1 of thousands of land mines that could derail his career is insane to me. He was anointed "the chosen 1" at 16 years old and somehow surpassed those expectations.
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Head Ninja In Charge
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2:50p, 3/7/22
AG
I cannot imagine the mental fortitude required to not only meet, but exceed expectations foisted upon you by the entire sporting world ever since you were a sophomore in high school. I've literally called off work before because I didn't feel like taking a conference call.
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ATM9000
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In reply to NoahAg • 11:57p, 3/7/22
AG
NoahAg said:
Head Ninja In Charge said:
Your original graphic which states the parameters, peak player vs. peak player, literally highlights the fact that LeBron was a better passer.

I'm sorry, but peak LeBron whether we're using a 5-year peak, 3-year peak, single season peak, or them on their best night would destroy Larry Bird.

-Do we even need to talk about how much tougher teams were allowed to defend in the 80s compared to today? LeBron is obviously a physical freak, but he would have had to work harder to battle against the Oakleys and Lambeers of the 80s.

Nothing better than when internet guys try to argue about how not tough Lebrun is by naming guys who would guard him tougher… that highly likely wouldn't even make a roster in the modern NBA.
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Iowaggie
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In reply to Head Ninja In Charge • 1:07p, 3/10/22
AG
Head Ninja In Charge said:
This guy just dropped a 50-burger last night at 37 years old with minimum help. LeBron is literally the same size as Oakley and twice as quick/fast as Bird. I honestly don't see how it's comparable.

Side tangent: 156 players have scored 50 or more points, and I believe that was LBJ's 13th 50+ point game, putting him 7th all time in most 50 point games, just 1 behind Rick Barry at 6 and 105 behind Wilt Chamberlain who leads with 118 times that he did it. Jordan and Kobe are at 31 and 25 times respectively.

Some of Wilt's records are amazing
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ATM9000
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In reply to Iowaggie • 2:33p, 3/11/22
AG
Iowaggie said:
Head Ninja In Charge said:
This guy just dropped a 50-burger last night at 37 years old with minimum help. LeBron is literally the same size as Oakley and twice as quick/fast as Bird. I honestly don't see how it's comparable.

Side tangent: 156 players have scored 50 or more points, and I believe that was LBJ's 13th 50+ point game, putting him 7th all time in most 50 point games, just 1 behind Rick Barry at 6 and 105 behind Wilt Chamberlain who leads with 118 times that he did it. Jordan and Kobe are at 31 and 25 times respectively.

Some of Wilt's records are amazing

The OG stat padder.
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The Porkchop Express
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In reply to Iowaggie • 2:56p, 3/11/22
Iowaggie said:
Head Ninja In Charge said:
This guy just dropped a 50-burger last night at 37 years old with minimum help. LeBron is literally the same size as Oakley and twice as quick/fast as Bird. I honestly don't see how it's comparable.

Side tangent: 156 players have scored 50 or more points, and I believe that was LBJ's 13th 50+ point game, putting him 7th all time in most 50 point games, just 1 behind Rick Barry at 6 and 105 behind Wilt Chamberlain who leads with 118 times that he did it. Jordan and Kobe are at 31 and 25 times respectively.

Some of Wilt's records are amazing
Wilt averaged 50 a game in 1961-1962. He had 31 games with between 50-59 points that year.

Additionally he had games of:

60 vs the Lakers
78 vs. the Lakers
61 vs. the defunct Chicago Packers
60 vs. the Lakers again
73 vs. the Packers
62 vs. the Celtics
62 vs. the St Louis Hawks (this and the prior 2 were in 3 straight games)
62 vs. the Syracuse Nationals
65 vs. the Cincinnati Royals
67 vs. the St. Louis Hawks
61 vs. the Hawks
67 vs. the Knicks
65 vs. the Hawks
61 vs. the Packers
100 vs. the Knicks

Between February 25 and March 4, he score 67, 65, 61, 100, and 58 points, an average of 70.2 points per game.
He shot 61.3% from the FT line that year, a career best.

WARNING: I have a deep-seated desire for others to love the Star Wars franchise as much as I do, in exactly the way I do, and get snippy and sensitive and passive-aggressive when they don't.
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CactusThomas
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12:15a, 3/12/22
AG


Pretty good so long as the relative humidity is under 50%
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MapGuy
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In reply to Texas A&M • 7:42a, 3/12/22
I honestly think you take any of those greats from back then and put them into today's league they'd dominate even more. The league today is soft and the players are far too protected from rough play. I've always wondered how good Lebron would be and how his longevity would have been impacted playing back in the day with likes of the Pistons. I think he'd still be good, just not in the conversation for GOAT
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Head Ninja In Charge
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9:11a, 3/12/22
AG
Dropped another 50-piece last night. Not sure what else he needs to do.
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The Porkchop Express
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In reply to Head Ninja In Charge • 10:51a, 3/13/22
Head Ninja In Charge said:
Dropped another 50-piece last night. Not sure what else he needs to do.
Stop being a whiny ***** for starters.
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Señor Chang
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9:35a, 3/16/22
AG
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500,000ags
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In reply to Señor Chang • 9:45a, 3/16/22
AG
I don't think anyone is saying LeBron's play mentality is better than Bird's play mentality.
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Iowaggie
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In reply to Head Ninja In Charge • 2:37p, 3/16/22
AG
Head Ninja In Charge said:
Dropped another 50-piece last night. Not sure what else he needs to do.


I don't think this is the last 50+point game gets this year as I expect several more. The Lakers are who their are as a team so At this point the scoring title is a realistic goal.

They are a solid bet to battle the Pelicans in the first play-in game, he might as well go after the scoring title.
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Ulrich
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In reply to Iowaggie • 11:25a, 3/17/22
I know you're talking about the 2021-2022 season scoring title, but he will pass Jordan for second in total points scored in the next week and probably take down Kareem towards the end of next season.
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M.C. Swag
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In reply to Ulrich • 4:29p, 3/17/22
AG
Ulrich said:
I know you're talking about the 2021-2022 season scoring title, but he will pass Jordan for second in total points scored in the next week and probably take down Kareem towards the end of next season.
You mean Karl Malone. Lebron passed MJ years ago in both reg season and playoffs.
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Ulrich
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In reply to M.C. Swag • 3:33p, 3/18/22
M.C. Swag said:
Ulrich said:
I know you're talking about the 2021-2022 season scoring title, but he will pass Jordan for second in total points scored in the next week and probably take down Kareem towards the end of next season.
You mean Karl Malone. Lebron passed MJ years ago in both reg season and playoffs.

Oops. I guess my brain insisted it knew better than my eyes.
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racerfink
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8:45p, 3/19/22
Nobody quits on his teammates better than LeBron.
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digital_ag
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4:36p, 3/20/22
AG
It's Bird for the same reason MJ is the GOAT. Bird was a bad dude. LeBalding is easily the most physically gifted player ever but he's a mental midget.
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