*****OFFICIAL 2018-2019 Houston Rockets*****

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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Hickory High • 5:55p, 6/26/19
AG
Hickory High said:
M.C. Swag said:
This feels like a panic-y move.
Something has to change pretty dramatically with this team before next season starts if we want to win a title. There are a limited number of players that we can actually get AND will put us in title contention. Morey believes Butler is one of them.
Does something need to drastically change?

The best team in the West lost two of their three best players. The Rockets were 4 games out of 1st place in the West and 1 game out of 2nd place.

Like I posted a couple weeks ago, when I talked to PJ Tucker, he said they wanted to run it back last year and couldn't. Maybe some consistency from season to season would help, especially in a radically changed west.
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lil99chris
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6:03p, 6/26/19
AG
How many years did Houston try to get Carmelo in a Rockets uniform? Feel like the Rockets are going down the same path with Jimmy Butler.
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Hickory High
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 6:12p, 6/26/19
AG
Guitarsoup said:
Hickory High said:
M.C. Swag said:
This feels like a panic-y move.
Something has to change pretty dramatically with this team before next season starts if we want to win a title. There are a limited number of players that we can actually get AND will put us in title contention. Morey believes Butler is one of them.
Does something need to drastically change?

The best team in the West lost two of their three best players. The Rockets were 4 games out of 1st place in the West and 1 game out of 2nd place.

Like I posted a couple weeks ago, when I talked to PJ Tucker, he said they wanted to run it back last year and couldn't. Maybe some consistency from season to season would help, especially in a radically changed west.
Yes, something needs to drastically change. Chris Paul will be one year older and has shown he's not capable of being the statistical leader he used to be. Harden's usage rate is not sustainable, especially in the playoffs.

Those regular season facts are just fluff. Who gives a damn about regular season placement? Yeah, we were 1 game out of 2nd place...still went home in the 2nd round. It isn't working. I get what you're saying about roster continuity, but we've mostly been the same team for the last two years. To do the same exact thing the third year in a row and just hope for a better result would be a bad idea.
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Iowaggie
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 6:17p, 6/26/19
AG
Guitarsoup said:
Hickory High said:
M.C. Swag said:
This feels like a panic-y move.
Something has to change pretty dramatically with this team before next season starts if we want to win a title. There are a limited number of players that we can actually get AND will put us in title contention. Morey believes Butler is one of them.
Does something need to drastically change?

The best team in the West lost two of their three best players. The Rockets were 4 games out of 1st place in the West and 1 game out of 2nd place.

Like I posted a couple weeks ago, when I talked to PJ Tucker, he said they wanted to run it back last year and couldn't. Maybe some consistency from season to season would help, especially in a radically changed west.

This is what I was going to post, but I'll add that there is a real emotional cost to not getting this deal done.

I just don't think guys play as well when their own team is openly trying to get rid of them for a hotter girlfriend*.
They are supposed to be professional, but I think there is a change.


*Hotter girlfriend who also has a tad bit of BSC in her and wants the ball.
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flashplayer
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6:25p, 6/26/19
AG
Most title teams have had their core together for quite some time before winning a ship. It usually takes time for teams to gel.

I know Toronto is an exception (so is 08 Boston) but in the last 20+ years all these teams had their core together almost 2 full years or much more when they won:

Spurs (5 titles)
Lakers (5 titles)
Miami (3 titles)
Golden State (3 titles)
Detroit (1)
Dallas(1)
Cleveland (1)


And this point is even more driven home when you look at the teams who lost in the finals each year. The vast majority of them had been together for years when they made it to the big show.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Hickory High • 6:38p, 6/26/19
AG
Hickory High said:
Guitarsoup said:
Hickory High said:
M.C. Swag said:
This feels like a panic-y move.
Something has to change pretty dramatically with this team before next season starts if we want to win a title. There are a limited number of players that we can actually get AND will put us in title contention. Morey believes Butler is one of them.
Does something need to drastically change?

The best team in the West lost two of their three best players. The Rockets were 4 games out of 1st place in the West and 1 game out of 2nd place.

Like I posted a couple weeks ago, when I talked to PJ Tucker, he said they wanted to run it back last year and couldn't. Maybe some consistency from season to season would help, especially in a radically changed west.
Yes, something needs to drastically change. Chris Paul will be one year older and has shown he's not capable of being the statistical leader he used to be. Harden's usage rate is not sustainable, especially in the playoffs.

Those regular season facts are just fluff. Who gives a damn about regular season placement? Yeah, we were 1 game out of 2nd place...still went home in the 2nd round. It isn't working. I get what you're saying about roster continuity, but we've mostly been the same team for the last two years. To do the same exact thing the third year in a row and just hope for a better result would be a bad idea.


If you get rid of Nene, Gordon, and Capela for Butler, you won't have a single teammate of Hardens left from the 2017 team.

I don't know of many teams that have won a title by turning over 95% of their roster over two years.

The regular season placing absolutely matters. It showed that the team the Rockets have built is close to Championship level and the team that has been the best team by far over the last half decade just fell apart.

That's a terrible time to turn your roster over again.
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AG@RICE
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7:02p, 6/26/19
AG
Not happy that we are publicly shopping our players. There is such a narrow range of possibilities that will result in a better situation than where we ended this past year. I feel like the most likely outcome is that everyone stays put and they are pissed.

Also, getting rid of Tucker would be stupid.
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Hickory High
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 7:46p, 6/26/19
AG
None of that really matters. Do you believe that a team that relies on Chris Paul as the 2nd best player can win an NBA championship next season?
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Farmer1906
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In reply to Hickory High • 7:49p, 6/26/19
AG
Get Butler and then that isn't true.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Hickory High • 8:37p, 6/26/19
AG
Hickory High said:
None of that really matters. Do you believe that a team that relies on Chris Paul as the 2nd best player can win an NBA championship next season?
Depends who rounds out the team.

A team with Jason Terry as the #2 player won 8 years ago. The 2014 Spurs didn't have a single player as good over the entire season as Chris Paul is now. Remember Kawhi only averaged 12ppg that year and only averaged 14ppg in the playoffs.

So yes, a team with Chris Paul as their #2 player could win it all next year. I think next year is going to be the most wide open season since 2011.
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Hickory High
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 8:51p, 6/26/19
AG
Guitarsoup said:
Hickory High said:
None of that really matters. Do you believe that a team that relies on Chris Paul as the 2nd best player can win an NBA championship next season?
Depends who rounds out the team.

A team with Jason Terry as the #2 player won 8 years ago. The 2014 Spurs didn't have a single player as good over the entire season as Chris Paul is now. Remember Kawhi only averaged 12ppg that year and only averaged 14ppg in the playoffs.

So yes, a team with Chris Paul as their #2 player could win it all next year. I think next year is going to be the most wide open season since 2011.
Those examples don't work at all. Jason Terry wasn't making $40 mil/year, so the Mavs could go out and get a solid core of guys who could all contribute. Same with the Spurs.

As I've been saying, it is impossible to view CP outside of the lense of how much money he's taking up. We have no cap space to go out and get more help. If no trade is made and we go into next season with the same team, a result similar to last year will be the best case scenario.
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mAgnoliAg
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In reply to WES2006AG • 9:37p, 6/26/19
AG
WES2006AG said:
CFTXAG10 said:
This makes no sense to me at all.

Get some picks that may or may not help us get jimmy butler? What could go wrong?
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WES2006AG
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In reply to mAgnoliAg • 9:41p, 6/26/19
AG
mAgnoliAg said:
WES2006AG said:
CFTXAG10 said:
This makes no sense to me at all.

Get some picks that may or may not help us get jimmy butler? What could go wrong?
I don't like this even if we do get Jimmy. If we traded those 3 and then didn't get Jimmy that would be an unmitigated disaster and probably lead to Morey being shown the door.

I have faith Morey will do the right thing but I just don't know what that is at this point.
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Proposition Joe
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 9:21a, 6/27/19
Guitarsoup said:
Hickory High said:
M.C. Swag said:
This feels like a panic-y move.
Something has to change pretty dramatically with this team before next season starts if we want to win a title. There are a limited number of players that we can actually get AND will put us in title contention. Morey believes Butler is one of them.
Does something need to drastically change?

The best team in the West lost two of their three best players. The Rockets were 4 games out of 1st place in the West and 1 game out of 2nd place.

Like I posted a couple weeks ago, when I talked to PJ Tucker, he said they wanted to run it back last year and couldn't. Maybe some consistency from season to season would help, especially in a radically changed west.

The Rockets wanted to run it back in 2019 and they ended up losing to the same team... one round sooner... in 6 games instead of 7... with Kevin Durant missing 2 games... and the two wins both coming down to one possession in the last 15 seconds of regulation.

And the team they lost to went on to lose in the Finals -- so a case could certainly be made that even had they taken down the Warriors they still might not have won it all.

The "run it back" team took a pretty big step back from the 2018-2019 team that was probably a good quarter away from going to (and winning) the NBA Finals.

Sure, Golden State is now fragmented -- but Paul is going to be a year older and Harden is going to have even more mileage on him.

The Rockets window certainly isn't closed, but is barely open with the current roster. Maybe adding Butler isn't what busts through, but at this point it's probably the best shot at winning before Harden's legs fall off.
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Head Ninja In Charge
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9:38a, 6/27/19
AG
^THIS.
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Hickory High
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In reply to Proposition Joe • 9:45a, 6/27/19
AG
Proposition Joe said:
Guitarsoup said:
Hickory High said:
M.C. Swag said:
This feels like a panic-y move.
Something has to change pretty dramatically with this team before next season starts if we want to win a title. There are a limited number of players that we can actually get AND will put us in title contention. Morey believes Butler is one of them.
Does something need to drastically change?

The best team in the West lost two of their three best players. The Rockets were 4 games out of 1st place in the West and 1 game out of 2nd place.

Like I posted a couple weeks ago, when I talked to PJ Tucker, he said they wanted to run it back last year and couldn't. Maybe some consistency from season to season would help, especially in a radically changed west.

The Rockets wanted to run it back in 2019 and they ended up losing to the same team... one round sooner... in 6 games instead of 7... with Kevin Durant missing 2 games... and the two wins both coming down to one possession in the last 15 seconds of regulation.

And the team they lost to went on to lose in the Finals -- so a case could certainly be made that even had they taken down the Warriors they still might not have won it all.

The "run it back" team took a pretty big step back from the 2018-2019 team that was probably a good quarter away from going to (and winning) the NBA Finals.

Sure, Golden State is now fragmented -- but Paul is going to be a year older and Harden is going to have even more mileage on him.

The Rockets window certainly isn't closed, but is barely open with the current roster. Maybe adding Butler isn't what busts through, but at this point it's probably the best shot at winning before Harden's legs fall off.
Thank you. It's not hard to understand. I don't see why people can't get this.
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CFTXAG10
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9:57a, 6/27/19
AG
I think this is trending in the direction of Capela getting traded to someone else for assets that are valuable to Philly then you package that with Gordon and get Jimmy Buckets via S&T. Don't think Philly has much of a need for Capela with Embiid, unless they want an insurance policy. Still doesn't make much sense for them. Gordon on the other hand is on a team friendly deal and could fit in like a glove, especially if they lose Reddick.

If Morey can pull it off, I am all for it. Pairing CP3-Harden-Butler-Tucker would be huge IF they stay healthy.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Proposition Joe • 10:15a, 6/27/19
AG
Proposition Joe said:
Guitarsoup said:
Hickory High said:
M.C. Swag said:
This feels like a panic-y move.
Something has to change pretty dramatically with this team before next season starts if we want to win a title. There are a limited number of players that we can actually get AND will put us in title contention. Morey believes Butler is one of them.
Does something need to drastically change?

The best team in the West lost two of their three best players. The Rockets were 4 games out of 1st place in the West and 1 game out of 2nd place.

Like I posted a couple weeks ago, when I talked to PJ Tucker, he said they wanted to run it back last year and couldn't. Maybe some consistency from season to season would help, especially in a radically changed west.

The Rockets wanted to run it back in 2019 and they ended up losing to the same team... one round sooner... in 6 games instead of 7... with Kevin Durant missing 2 games... and the two wins both coming down to one possession in the last 15 seconds of regulation.

And the team they lost to went on to lose in the Finals -- so a case could certainly be made that even had they taken down the Warriors they still might not have won it all.

The "run it back" team took a pretty big step back from the 2018-2019 team that was probably a good quarter away from going to (and winning) the NBA Finals.

Sure, Golden State is now fragmented -- but Paul is going to be a year older and Harden is going to have even more mileage on him.

The Rockets window certainly isn't closed, but is barely open with the current roster. Maybe adding Butler isn't what busts through, but at this point it's probably the best shot at winning before Harden's legs fall off.


It's almost like Ariza was a valuable component of the 18 Rockets team and he left. Having a+ defender with length is pretty important when playing against Klay, Curry, and Green.

If you are moving your #3,4,&5 players to get Jimmy Butler, , the rest of the NBA will be thrilled. We'll see how it plays out, but I certainly don't see that putting the Rockets over the hump at all. Teams aren't winning it all without depth. Butler would be on his fourth team in three years; that is a lot of red flags
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CFTXAG10
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 10:26a, 6/27/19
AG

Quote:
If you are moving your #3,4,&5 players to get Jimmy Butler, , the rest of the NBA will be thrilled. We'll see how it plays out, but I certainly don't see that putting the Rockets over the hump at all. Teams aren't winning it all without depth. Butler would be on his fourth team in three years; that is a lot of red flags
This is a good point. Would be a tough task for Morey to fill out the roster with limited space. Would need some ring chasers on vet min deals.

I think its worth noting that if the Butler situation doesn't pan out, Morey still has a good opportunity to use the MLE and stay under the hard cap while bringing in some pieces to add even more depth. Which would be "running it back" in a sense, but with more depth. And although I would love to have Butler, I think this scenario would also have us as a legit contender for a title.
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Iowaggie
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10:27a, 6/27/19
AG
Guy breaks down how the S&T would work and the cap/tax consequences

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Proposition Joe
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 10:45a, 6/27/19
Guitarsoup said:
Proposition Joe said:
Guitarsoup said:
Hickory High said:
M.C. Swag said:
This feels like a panic-y move.
Something has to change pretty dramatically with this team before next season starts if we want to win a title. There are a limited number of players that we can actually get AND will put us in title contention. Morey believes Butler is one of them.
Does something need to drastically change?

The best team in the West lost two of their three best players. The Rockets were 4 games out of 1st place in the West and 1 game out of 2nd place.

Like I posted a couple weeks ago, when I talked to PJ Tucker, he said they wanted to run it back last year and couldn't. Maybe some consistency from season to season would help, especially in a radically changed west.

The Rockets wanted to run it back in 2019 and they ended up losing to the same team... one round sooner... in 6 games instead of 7... with Kevin Durant missing 2 games... and the two wins both coming down to one possession in the last 15 seconds of regulation.

And the team they lost to went on to lose in the Finals -- so a case could certainly be made that even had they taken down the Warriors they still might not have won it all.

The "run it back" team took a pretty big step back from the 2018-2019 team that was probably a good quarter away from going to (and winning) the NBA Finals.

Sure, Golden State is now fragmented -- but Paul is going to be a year older and Harden is going to have even more mileage on him.

The Rockets window certainly isn't closed, but is barely open with the current roster. Maybe adding Butler isn't what busts through, but at this point it's probably the best shot at winning before Harden's legs fall off.

If you are moving your #3,4,&5 players to get Jimmy Butler, , the rest of the NBA will be thrilled. We'll see how it plays out, but I certainly don't see that putting the Rockets over the hump at all. Teams aren't winning it all without depth. Butler would be on his fourth team in three years; that is a lot of red flags

Will it put the Rockets over the hump? Possibly (probably) not.

But the team as currently constructed, even with a minor tweak or two, is definitely not getting over the hump.

Trading assets for Butler is no different than the Chris Paul deal -- you are mortgaging the future in order to win next season. There's no guarantee that it works, but the alternative is to just see how next season goes and lose one more year of Harden's productivity (and have one more year of Paul's decline).

The Rockets window is the next 2 seasons.
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CFTXAG10
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In reply to Proposition Joe • 10:57a, 6/27/19
AG

Quote:
Will it put the Rockets over the hump? Possibly (probably) not.

But the team as currently constructed, even with a minor tweak or two, is definitely not getting over the hump.

Trading assets for Butler is no different than the Chris Paul deal -- you are mortgaging the future in order to win next season. There's no guarantee that it works, but the alternative is to just see how next season goes and lose one more year of Harden's productivity (and have one more year of Paul's decline).

The Rockets window is the next 2 seasons.
I don't agree with that. If this team stayed the exact same, and Morey made moves to add depth and fill out the roster we would still be in a very good position to make a run at a title.

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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Proposition Joe • 11:14a, 6/27/19
AG
The alternative is to use the MLE and other exceptions to try to add depth while giving your core another off-season together and with MDA.

Some solid contributors take the mle every year to join a team with stars and the Rockets have that. Raiding your size and depth to get a good but not great SG is generally a bad idea.

I would use the mle on a guy like Danny Green (gives a three point shooter and a great wing defender that's been a starter on two Championship teams.) Plus you remove him from the raptors.

In the West, you have to look at the Nuggets as a team to beat and the have Jokic to deal with. That's going to be a lot more difficult without Capela. Plus every team that slashes to the hoop will not have to deal with one of the better room protectors anymore.
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YNWA_AG
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11:18a, 6/27/19
AG
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Iowaggie
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11:20a, 6/27/19
AG
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k20dub
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In reply to AG@RICE • 11:24a, 6/27/19
AG
AG@RICE said:
I don't actually think the Rockets have a chance of landing Butler.
Apparently Vegas does.
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Guitarsoup
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11:46a, 6/27/19
AG
The way it could possibly work:

Rockets trade out Capela and Gordon, but are able to hold on to PJ Tucker for Butler.

Rockets are able to convince DeAndre Jordan to take a huge discount for whatever exception they have. Hope to keep House.

Maybe that's an upgrade and DJ and Paul have enough tread left on the tires.

That's a lot of ifs, though.
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CFTXAG10
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12:10p, 6/27/19
AG
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CreedBratton
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 12:15p, 6/27/19
Guitarsoup said:
The way it could possibly work:

Rockets trade out Capela and Gordon, but are able to hold on to PJ Tucker for Butler.

Rockets are able to convince DeAndre Jordan to take a huge discount for whatever exception they have. Hope to keep House.

Maybe that's an upgrade and DJ and Paul have enough tread left on the tires.

That's a lot of ifs, though.

Keeping PJ is my top priority. I would love this scenario if it plays out this way
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mAgnoliAg
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12:38p, 6/27/19
AG
Chris Paul
James harden
Jimmy Butler
PJ Tucker
Deandre Jordan

Easily best starting lineup in the league
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Aggie09Derek
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In reply to mAgnoliAg • 12:42p, 6/27/19
AG
Will we be able to keep Rivers?

As weird as it sounds I think getting him back will be pretty big. He was very good in our offense at times and is one player who can get to the rim.
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Hickory High
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In reply to Aggie09Derek • 12:46p, 6/27/19
AG
Aggie09Derek said:
Will we be able to keep Rivers?

As weird as it sounds I think getting him back will be pretty big. He was very good in our offense at times and is one player who can get to the rim.
Highly unlikely. He'll be outside of our budget.
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Hickory High
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In reply to CFTXAG10 • 12:47p, 6/27/19
AG
CFTXAG10 said:

Quote:
Will it put the Rockets over the hump? Possibly (probably) not.

But the team as currently constructed, even with a minor tweak or two, is definitely not getting over the hump.

Trading assets for Butler is no different than the Chris Paul deal -- you are mortgaging the future in order to win next season. There's no guarantee that it works, but the alternative is to just see how next season goes and lose one more year of Harden's productivity (and have one more year of Paul's decline).

The Rockets window is the next 2 seasons.
I don't agree with that. If this team stayed the exact same, and Morey made moves to add depth and fill out the roster we would still be in a very good position to make a run at a title.

MUCH easier said than done. We can't really do anything. We're almost completely out of available cash.
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Agmaniacmike12
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3:32p, 6/27/19
I think this going to happen. Celtics and Hawks are likely very interested in Capela, especially since both are likely a center away from being in great shape and they have an extra 2020 1st to work with. Gordon for Butler isn't bad for the 76ers if Jimmy doesn't plan on staying. I don't know their cap situation, but I imagine they could re-sign Reddick with that trade.
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YNWA_AG
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3:59p, 6/27/19
AG
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