Dream Was 20 Times Better Than Tim Duncan

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GatorAg03
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In reply to 03_Aggie • 11:38a, 6/7/17
AG
That's certainly not what he said. Probably is the key word and he was clearly talking in the context of that Shaq vs Hakeem discussion. As he said in a different quote: Duncan is in a class of his own.

Again, all the lists and discussions and even star players have Duncan ahead of Hakeem. Nobody of repute says Hakeem is better other than a delusional Robert Horry that got his facts wrong and embellished greatly. Obviously, there will always be homers like Horry cheering for their player, in his case to hype up his legacy. However, history has and will show that Duncan was the superior player and it's really not that close.
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Farmer1906
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In reply to GatorAg03 • 12:23p, 6/7/17
AG
GatorAg03 said:
That's certainly not what he said. Probably is the key word and he was clearly talking in the context of that Shaq vs Hakeem discussion. As he said in a different quote: Duncan is in a class of his own.

Again, all the lists and discussions and even star players have Duncan ahead of Hakeem. Nobody of repute says Hakeem is better other than a delusional Robert Horry that got his facts wrong and embellished greatly. Obviously, there will always be homers like Horry cheering for their player, in his case to hype up his legacy. However, history has and will show that Duncan was the superior player and it's really not that close.
Robinson & Shaq = Big Man Studs pick Dream over Duncan

Elie & Horry = Played with both pick Dream over Duncan

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Petrino1
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12:53p, 6/7/17
What "star players" have said theyd take Duncan over Olajuwon?
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Guitarsoup
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1:09p, 6/7/17
AG

Quote:
Robinson & Shaq = Big Man Studs pick Dream over Duncan
Robinson picked Hakeem over Shaq, not Hakeem over Duncan. It was a Hakeem vs Shaq conversation, Duncan wasn't brought up.
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Farmer1906
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 1:11p, 6/7/17
AG
Guitarsoup said:

Quote:
Robinson & Shaq = Big Man Studs pick Dream over Duncan
Robinson picked Hakeem over Shaq, not Hakeem over Duncan. It was a Hakeem vs Shaq conversation, Duncan wasn't brought up.
But we all know Shaq > Duncan so Dream > Duncan.
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Farmer1906
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1:17p, 6/7/17
AG
Dream, the best ever in the playoffs.

https://hickamsdictum.com/the-g-o-a-t-who-is-the-best-basketball-player-of-all-time-e43c7e53a9a7

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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Farmer1906 • 1:21p, 6/7/17
AG
aggie1906 said:
Guitarsoup said:

Quote:
Robinson & Shaq = Big Man Studs pick Dream over Duncan
Robinson picked Hakeem over Shaq, not Hakeem over Duncan. It was a Hakeem vs Shaq conversation, Duncan wasn't brought up.
But we all know Shaq > Duncan so Dream > Duncan.
Simmons had Duncan > Shaq before Duncan had even won his 5th title.


Relevant:

Best #1 overall Draft Picks:
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank-best1-19367877/lebron-james-kareem-duncan

Duncan has the 2nd Greatest Player ever:
http://www.poundingtherock.com/2015/4/29/8518299/is-duncan-the-second-best-player-ever

Duncan 2nd GOAT:
http://sports.cbslocal.com/2015/04/30/tim-duncan-michael-jordan-second-best-nba-player/


Duncan 7th on 50 greatest list:
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/cbs-sports-50-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time-where-do-lebron-curry-rank/

TL;DR
1. Jordan
2. LBJ
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. KAJ
6. Russell
7. Duncan
8. Bird
9. Shaq
10. Kobe

Simmons' revised basketball Pyramid from 2011:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/simmons_pyramid.html

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. KAJ
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8 .Kobe
9. West
10. Oscar


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GatorAg03
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1:36p, 6/7/17
AG
Duncan's longevity and ability to be great in any system doesn't get enough consideration. He won a title in 3 different decades with three different offenses and rosters around him. Everything from the twin towers back to the basket era to, to the big 3 iso era, to the small ball/beautiful game era. He was great in all of them.

He didn't have "lost years" at the beginning or the end of his career.

One can argue his peak might not have been as high as a few others(although it was pretty damn high), but when you factor in his valleys vs the all-time greats that's really where he really shines.

Again, too many focus on simply how good a player was at his peak and don't consider how bad he was at his worst.

He was great from the day he stepped on the court, to the day he stepped off of it. Very, very few can say that.
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03_Aggie
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 2:38p, 6/7/17
Guitarsoup said:

Quote:
Robinson & Shaq = Big Man Studs pick Dream over Duncan
Robinson picked Hakeem over Shaq, not Hakeem over Duncan. It was a Hakeem vs Shaq conversation, Duncan wasn't brought up.


He was asked who was tougher to play against. Not who would you pick for your center if you were starting a team.
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Bruce Almighty
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4:11p, 6/7/17
AG
Hakeem was still incredibly raw when he joined the NBA and was relying on athleticism more than skill. Hakeem also wore down quicker. Duncan is the greater player but I think Hakeem at his best was better than Duncan at his best, I just don't think Hakeem's prime lasted very long. If I needed a player to build a team around, I'd take Duncan over Hakeem, if I needed a big man for just one season at their best, I'd take Hakeem over Duncan.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Bruce Almighty • 4:13p, 6/7/17
AG
Bruce Almighty said:
Hakeem was still incredibly raw when he joined the NBA and was relying on athleticism more than skill. Hakeem also wore down quicker. Duncan is the greater player but I think Hakeem at his best was better than Duncan at his best, I just don't think Hakeem's prime lasted very long. If I needed a player to build a team around, I'd take Duncan over Hakeem, if I needed a big man for just one season at their best, I'd take Hakeem over Duncan.
If you are picking a player at their best, it is hard not to pick Playoff 95 Hakeem. He was a force.
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Farmer1906
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In reply to Bruce Almighty • 6:14p, 6/7/17
AG
Hakeem's tier 2 seasons are as good as Timmy's prime. Hakeem played as good or better than Timmy for a longer period of time. Hakeem's lows were lower than timmys low.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Farmer1906 • 6:18p, 6/7/17
AG

Quote:
Hakeem's tier 2 seasons are as good as Timmy's prime.
Yet he couldn't even drag his team to 50 wins in over 10 seasons of his career. Are those his Tier 3 seasons?

Who else in the top 25 in Simmons' Pyramid has 10+ seasons below 50 wins?
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Enzo The Baker
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In reply to 03_Aggie • 6:23p, 6/7/17
AG
Quote:
Interesting that that is what you took away from the post. Completely glossed over the fact that the HOF spurs player said Hakeem is who he'd build a team around and not Duncan?

I didn't gloss over anything. In fact I actually read the entire article you posted. Maybe you should do the same. David was comparing Magic Vs. Bird, Malone Vs. Barkley and then O'Neal Vs. Hakeem. Duncan or anyone else for that matter wasn't part of any equation. If they were, do you really think he'd pick to start a team with Hakeem over Magic or Jordan?

Also, here's an interview with David from Mike and Mike from a year ago (more recent than your article) asking who was the best and toughest to guard out of Hakeem, Tim, and Shaq. He picks Hakeem and Tim over Shaq, but says he's partial to Duncan because he saw him play every day (shocker).



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Enzo The Baker
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In reply to Farmer1906 • 6:34p, 6/7/17
AG
Quote:
Elie & Horry = Played with both pick Dream over Duncan

And neither of those players played with Duncan during his MVP seasons.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Enzo The Baker • 7:26p, 6/7/17
AG
Enzo The Baker said:
Quote:
Elie & Horry = Played with both pick Dream over Duncan

And neither of those players played with Duncan during his MVP seasons.
There is also personal biases at play, just like with Robinson. Despite playing for lots of teams, both Elie and Horry are loyal to the Rockets. Makes sense because they popped their title cherry with the Rockets and their success there was vital to their career.

Horry with the unsolicited jabs at Manu show he might be just as bitter the Spurs wouldn't keep him around for more seasons as he was when the Lakers told him to GTFO.


Also from Robert Horry:


Quote:
Rudy Tomjanovich was the best coach I ever had, not Phil Jackson or Gregg Popovich.


...

T was the greatest NBA coach.


https://www.theplayerstribune.com/robert-horry-kobe-phil-jackson-lakers/


Yeah, his opinions are valuable. Hang your hats on that on, Rockets fans.
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CactusThomas
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8:42p, 6/7/17
AG
If you think Akeem was better than Shaq or Duncan, you're smoking some 5th ward cheese.

If you want to compare him to a center, it's Robinson, not Shaq.
If you want to compare him to a forward, it's Malone, not Duncan.

I'm a big fan of Big Shot Rob and it pains me to hear that he's smoking rock. Also, I wore an Akeem jersey as a youth but I don't do drugs.
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Farmer1906
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 8:46p, 6/7/17
AG
Guitarsoup said:

Quote:
Hakeem's tier 2 seasons are as good as Timmy's prime.
Yet he couldn't even drag his team to 50 wins in over 10 seasons of his career. Are those his Tier 3 seasons?

Who else in the top 25 in Simmons' Pyramid has 10+ seasons below 50 wins?
He was surrounded by less talent than the 2017 Nets for a lot of his career. 1 man can only do so much.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Farmer1906 • 9:15p, 6/7/17
AG
aggie1906 said:
Guitarsoup said:

Quote:
Hakeem's tier 2 seasons are as good as Timmy's prime.
Yet he couldn't even drag his team to 50 wins in over 10 seasons of his career. Are those his Tier 3 seasons?

Who else in the top 25 in Simmons' Pyramid has 10+ seasons below 50 wins?
He was surrounded by less talent than the 2017 Nets for a lot of his career. 1 man can only do so much.
Bull*****

1992 had Otis Thorpe (17/11), Kenny Smith (14/7), Mad Max (17/4/3), Sleepy Floyd (9/3 in just 20mpg) along with Avery Johnson, Carl Herrera, Larry Smith, Matt Bullard and Buck Johnson and they couldn't even make the playoffs. That's pretty similar to the 94 team that won the title.

That team didn't make the playoffs in Hakeem's prime.

But yeah, less talent than the 17 Nets.

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Rusty GCS
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10:14p, 6/7/17
AG
Duncan has the hardware. Team achievements for the ultimate team first player.

Olajuwon has the edge on stats and likely would have slightly more hardware if it wasn't for the Jazz.

My personal eyeball test says Hakeem was the slightly better player.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Rusty GCS • 10:32p, 6/7/17
AG
Rusty GCS said:
Duncan has the hardware. Team achievements for the ultimate team first player.

Olajuwon has the edge on stats and likely would have slightly more hardware if it wasn't for the Bulls.
The Bulls never stopped Hakeem. It was Karl Malone and John Stockton (3-4 times.) Dale Ellis and Xavier McDaniel (twice!) Shawn Kemp and Gary Payton (twice.) Roy Tarpley and Mark Aguirre. No one stops Roy Tarpley and Mark Aguirre. No one.
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Rusty GCS
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 10:56p, 6/7/17
AG
I'll edit to Jazz for accuracy.
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David_Puddy
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In reply to Petrino1 • 11:19p, 6/7/17
AG
ea1060 said:
Heres Shaq on his toughest opponent ever. Shaq has came out multiple times how Hakeem did things he could only dream of. When they played on The Dream Team together Shaq had Dream try and teach him certain moves. Lebron, Kobe, among others had Dream come back from Africa in the summer to help train and teach them moves. I can guarantee you will never hear this same story about Robinson or Duncan training Lebron because a mid-range bank shot off the glass is all Duncan could do

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/22/sports/la-sp-sn-shaquille-oneal-hakeem-olajuwon-20130122

If I wanted to learn dribbling skills or how to perfect a crossover dribble I'd probably consult Allen Iverson too, but that doesn't mean I'd pick him over Jordan or Kobe as a player. That's quite a silly point to bring up in this argument.

Guitersoup is owning y'all with facts as per usual.
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Frok
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In reply to BBQ4Me • 7:23a, 6/8/17
AG
UMichAg said:
This argument has been played out on TexAgs for years.

Dream had a better peak. Duncan had a better career


This should have ended this thread.
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03_Aggie
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In reply to Frok • 7:32a, 6/8/17
No way. Spurs fans must defend their savior.

I'm pretty sure Spurs fans would be less upset if they had to ask horry for their turn with their own wife than they are at, what they view as, a disparaging comment towards lord Timmy.
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Enzo The Baker
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7:47a, 6/8/17
AG
Quote:
No way. Spurs fans must defend their savior.

I'm pretty sure Spurs fans would be less upset if they had to ask horry for their turn with their own wife than they are at, what they view as, a disparaging comment towards lord Timmy.
And it's a post like this when you know someone has lost the argument.
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03_Aggie
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In reply to Enzo The Baker • 8:16a, 6/8/17
What argument exactly?
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NickNaylor
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In reply to 03_Aggie • 8:51a, 6/8/17
03_Aggie said:
No way. Spurs fans must defend their savior.

I'm pretty sure Spurs fans would be less upset if they had to ask horry for their turn with their own wife than they are at, what they view as, a disparaging comment towards lord Timmy.
He says while defending Lord Hakeem.
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Guitarsoup
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11:05a, 6/8/17
AG
Hakeem was a combined 17-58 against Kareem, Robinson and Duncan.
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Rusty GCS
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 11:05a, 6/8/17
AG
They played a 1v1 tournament?
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Rusty GCS • 11:10a, 6/8/17
AG
I always forget that only the 95 WCF counts.
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Rusty GCS
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11:13a, 6/8/17
AG
Hakeem swept Shaq in the finals. Shaq is a better player than Hakeem still.

I think Lebron is better than Steph Curry but he's about to get swept too. Head to head matchups don't really determine who is a better player.

It's easily conceded that Kareem and Duncan had more team success than Olajuwon.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Rusty GCS • 11:20a, 6/8/17
AG
So at what point is that team success a problem with the player? There were obviously lots of issues with Hakeem as a teammate if the Rockets were suspending him for faking an injury and trying to trade him. And as pointed out in a previous post, Hakeem wasn't without talent around him, even when he missed the playoffs.

Rockets use Hakeem's Head to Head against Jordan from 91-93 as all sorts of justification.
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GatorAg03
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11:25a, 6/8/17
AG
I just want to know when we are having the discussion that Manu Ginobili is better than Kobe Bryant since only the absolute peak play is the judge!
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Btron
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11:47a, 6/8/17
AG
3 pages all from a guy with Tacos on his jacket.
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