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Magic and LeBron are both better than Bird.

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Agree to disagree then.

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I'd you are fine being wrong. Not Even Bill Simmons is going to put Bird over Lebron at this point and he already had Magic top four ever.

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I think Duncan fits it to. Spurs made it to the WCF once in the 15 years before Duncan, then win five titles in six trips to the Finals and haven't had a win percentage below 60% in 18 years.

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Spurs went from good to very good. Caves went from ****ty to very good.

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I think Duncan fits it to. Spurs made it to the WCF once in the 15 years before Duncan, then win five titles in six trips to the Finals and haven't had a win percentage below 60% in 18 years.

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Spurs went from good to very good. Caves went from ****ty to very good.

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But LBJ wasnt the only improvement, just like Duncan wasn't. Cavs had a lot of improvements in a very short amount of time.

Cavs prior ot LJ
2000-01: 30-52
2001-02: 29-53
2002-03: 17-65
(total 76-170 31%)

With LJ (part 1):
2003-04: 35-47
2004-05: 42-40
2005-06: 50-32
2006-07: 50-32
2007-08: 45-37
2008-09: 66-16
2009-10: 61-21
(total 349-225 61%)

Without LJ:
2010-11: 19-63
2011-12: 21-45
2012-13: 24-58
2012-14: 33-49
(total 97-215 31%)

With LJ (part 2):
2014-15: 53-29
2015-16: 57-25
(total 110-54 67%)



Spurs prior to Duncan:
1994-95: 62-20
1995-96: 59-23
1996-97: 20-62
(total 141-104 57%)

With Duncan:
1997-98: 56-26
1998-99: 37-13
1999-00: 53-29
2000-01: 58-24
2001-02: 58-24
2002-03: 60-22
2003-04: 57-25
2004-05: 59-23
2005-06: 63-19
2006-07: 58-24
2007-08: 56-26
2008-09: 54-28
2009-10: 50-32
2010-11: 61-21
2011-12: 50-16
2012-13: 58-24
2013-14: 62-20
2014-15: 55-27
2015-16: 67-15
(total 1072-483 69%)




I don't see it.

Strong upward trend (19 to 33 wins with two very young players that would get a max contract after their rookie deal was up) then they add a new #1, #3, #4, and #5 scorer in the same year and make a huge leap. They added a lot more than LeBron.

Okay. Duncan can count too. Happy now?

I just wanted aTm to type out all those records.

So what happened to the GSW v Cavs series thread?

Pretty odd to see a whole thread disappear on this board.

yeah what happened to it? What'd I miss?

Don't remember anything bad there.

1. PLEASE don't make the mistake of thinking the most vocal fans speak for an entire fanbase, just like I don't think EVERY Spurs fan is an elitist who considers his NBA knowledge superior to all others, simply because his team has been so good for so long.

2. Even though Dirk didn't have the best teammates around him that year, he still had some solid players, and a lot of depth. Kidd, Terry, and Marion all could still play at a high level at that time, and Tyson won a freakin' DPOY the following year! Clearly not a group of "spare parts"...

3. Regardless of whether or not you claim Mavs fans thought Dirk's supporting cast was bad, what does that have to do with whether YOU think the team was actually good or not? They still got the 2 seed in a good Western Conference, despite Dirk missing some games that year, and the 2nd-learding scorer, Butler, being lost for the season at one point. Are you saying they lucked their way thru the regular and post season, or that the Heat suddenly forgot how to play winning ball after dispatching the Bulls in 5 games the previous round?

Seriously, it won't hurt to admit that the Mavs actually got it right for ONE season, especially Cuban blew it all up the next..

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I just wanted aTm to type out all those records.

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I should have suspected you were trolling the whole time. Now your post finally makes sense.

Not a troll. Duncan undeniably had one of the biggest immediate impacts. You have to look at each situation. Robinson was never the same after the broken foot and back injury. The only two other core players were Avery Johnson and Sean Elliott. neither was ever a great player and both were on the back side of their career. The Spurs had no other major acquisitions along with Duncan.

The Cavs got Bron to go along with two very promising young players (Kyrie and Tristan) and they also brought in All-NBA 2nd team Kevin Love along with a new 4th and 5th scorer. Cavs were already on an upward slope and then got better with leadership and more talent. Spurs were on a downward slope and Duncan reversed that.

Respectfully disagree with you.

Even with some ailments and aging, the Spurs were EASILY already a top 3 club in the West when they got Duncan. Whether you believe the ranking was intentional or just good fortune, their roster was far more stacked than any club who would normally get an elite draft pick like Tim.

This round with the Cavs Lebron certainly has more talent around him than the first go-round, but let's not fool ourselves about their talent level. Without Lebron they are in the fringe of even being a playoff team in the weak East.

Not a Spurs fan but they've averaged 56+ wins a season (excluding strike seasons) for the span of Duncan's career and never once went below 50 wins (excluding strike seasons).

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Spurs fan vs AtmAg. This will go on for days.

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Eh, when his only retort is "her der you are a Spurs Homer" there isn't much to discuss.

If he actually wanted to pick apart the facts I posted, maybe there would be some decent conversation.

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Spurs fan vs AtmAg. This will go on for days.

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Eh, when his only retort is "her der you are a Spurs Homer" there isn't much to discuss.

If he actually wanted to pick apart the facts I posted, maybe there would be some decent conversation.

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I posted the record. It says enough.


And you are clearly a homer. I'm a Rockets fan and have no allegiance to the Cavs or Lebron. I also think Popovich is one of the best, if not the best, coach in the NBA. So I'm not an anti-Spurs guy either. Not to mention I almost never post on this board. So I have no personal bias against any poster here. I'm impartial.

And you are smoking crack.

You are impartial because you are a fan of a team that thinks it is a rival of the team I am talking about? OK.

I'm smoking crack because I think the addition of Tom Duncan greatly improved the Spurs?

Yes, excellent, well thought out points to dismantle the notion that Duncan greatly improved the Spurs.

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You are impartial because you are a fan of a team that thinks it is a rival of the team I am talking about? OK.

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I'm not a big Rockets fan anymore. After the Olajuwon and Rudy years, I lost interest. I've been living in DFW for 20 years (and can't stand the Mavericks). I haven't watched the Rockets in over a decade despite their recent playoff runs. This thread is the first time I have ever posted on this board. I don't have this secret Spurs hatred that I have been suppressing until now. In fact, I like the Spurs. Except Rodman, all the players I can think of are classy guys. I think Popavich is a damn good coach (and hilarious). To tell you the truth, I'm now probably more of a Spurs fan than a rockets fan. I certainly have watched more of their games.

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I'm smoking crack because I think the addition of Tom Duncan greatly improved the Spurs?

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You are smoking crack because you think Duncan improved the Spurs as much as Lebron improved the Cavs. I agree that Duncan did improve the Spurs, just not as much.

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you think Duncan improved the Spurs as much as Lebron improved the Cavs.

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I never said that.

And again, it is hard to quantify because the Cavs added four of their top five players at the same time as LeBron to a team with two very players a year or two into the league that both got max salaries. How much of that was LBJ and not all their other additions including an All-NBA 2nd team player? There is no way to quantify it.

And how do you quantify the downgrade the abilities of David Robinson, Sean Elliott, and Avery Johnson for the Improvement the Spurs saw with Tim Duncan's arrival. Again there's just no way to do that. But if you look at the Spurs team from 96 until 99 comma the most important addition outside of Tim Duncan was probably Mario Elie until 99, the most important addition outside of Tim Duncan was probably Mario Ellie. He averaged just under 10 points per game and replaced Vinny Del Negro.

Again, you are only kidding yourself if you do not think that Tim Duncan didn't have an extreme impact on the Spurs. And there's no question that LeBron had an extreme impact on the cats. I'm not arguing that either was more than the other. Only that both deserve to be discussed.

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I'm smoking crack because I think the addition of Tom Duncan greatly improved the Spurs?

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You are smoking crack because you think Duncan improved the Spurs as much as Lebron improved the Cavs. I agree that Duncan did improve the Spurs, just not as much.

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I feel like this board official ran out of things to argue about.

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Even with some ailments and aging, the Spurs were EASILY already a top 3 club in the West when they got Duncan.

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Disagree. The Spurs in 98 without Duncan would not have been near top 3 in the Western Conference. Want proof? With Duncan in 1998, they were a 5th seed. You had Malone Stockton Jazz, Payton Sonics, Kobe/Shaq Lakers all with over 60 wins and the Suns with Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, McDyess, and Kevin Johnson all ahead of the Spurs.

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their roster was far more stacked than any club who would normally get an elite draft pick like Tim.

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No question. But still, the post back surgery Robinson was the only good player. Outside those two players, not a single player averaged more than Avery Johnson's 10.2ppg. Sean Elliott's body is still breaking down, Vinny Del Negro is still trash and the other players aren't even worth mentioning.

With Duncan the Spurs were a 5th seed. Without Duncan, they would have been scraping to make the playoffs against a young Jail Blazers, and old Hakee/Clyde/Barkley Rockets and a young and upcoming Garnett led TPups. Spurs would have been the 8th seed, and only because there were so many trash teams in the WC at the time.

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This round with the Cavs Lebron certainly has more talent around him than the first go-round, but let's not fool ourselves about their talent level. Without Lebron they are in the fringe of even being a playoff team in the weak East.

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They were the 10th best East team the year before Bron came. With Wiggins (intead of Love), they would have needed to improve a grand total of 5 games to be a playoff team in 2015. There is no doubt in my mind that the Cavs would have been a fringe playoff team in 2015 without Bron. Add in the fact that they didn't just add LeBron, they added a 3rd, 4th and 5th scoring option and got rid of Mike Brown and it is completely obvious that the improvement of the Cavs wasn't just LeBron and that they would have been a playoff team anyway.

5. Duncan
4. Magic
3. Kareem
2. Lebron
1. MJ

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it is completely obvious that the improvement of the Cavs wasn't just LeBron and that they would have been a playoff team anyway.

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Completely obvious? That's silly.

Forget about how the Cavs improved when he came back..look at when he left..they went from 61 wins to 19 wins with basically the same team minus LeBron (and ok yeah, Zydrunas Illgauskas)...

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it is completely obvious that the improvement of the Cavs wasn't just LeBron and that they would have been a playoff team anyway.

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Completely obvious? That's silly.

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It is completely obvious to anyone that pays any attention whatsoever to NBA basketball that replacing Anthony Bennett with Kevin Love had a positive impact on that team. And that JR Smith was a big upgrade over Dion Waiters (who was LeBron's whipping boy for not working hard). Not silly at all.

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it is completely obvious that the improvement of the Cavs wasn't just LeBron and that they would have been a playoff team anyway.

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Completely obvious? That's silly.

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It is completely obvious to anyone that pays any attention whatsoever to NBA basketball that replacing Anthony Bennett with Kevin Love had a positive impact on that team. And that JR Smith was a big upgrade over Dion Waiters (who was LeBron's whipping boy for not working hard). Not silly at all.

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What's silly is to say that it's "completely obvious" that the Cavs would have been a playoff team without James. Obviously, they would face still been better than the previous year. It is NOT obvious that they would still have been a playoff team. That's far from obvious.

I have no doubt that if all they did was add Wiggins and Thompson+Kyrie continued to improve, they would have again improved (5th straight year!). They only needed a +5 win improvement to make the playoffs. The ROY added to your all-star point guard gets that done easily in a very, very weak East.

A couple thoughts

1) I don't understand why Aggies debating meaningless sports opinions are using terms like silly, obviously wrong, etc. let's tone it back here fellas

2) I am really not trying to argue against Tim. I think Tim is awesome and I have no issues with someone being of the opinion that's he's accomplished more than Lebron has to date.

I don't necessarily agree, but it's an incredibly valid opinion

3) I don't even think we agree on what constitutes the "better player" or "most impact". I've seen several arguments here about season total wins, and I don't even agree that the best team wins the most regular season games.

If you are judging which player increases a teams in-season winning consistency I might go with Tim over Lebron. But I go by who wins the games you HAVE to win, which is much more about clutch play and taking over the final 10 minutes of a game. IMO Lebron is right there with MJ, and I might even go Kobe in that mix at 3rd.

Regardless of what measure you use, there can be no doubt that Lebron has moved himself legitimately into the argument for best player ever. If he continues to achieve at this level for 4-5 more years, he might just own the debate.

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But I go by who wins the games you HAVE to win, which is much more about clutch play and taking over the final 10 minutes of a game. IMO Lebron is right there with MJ, and I might even go Kobe in that mix at 3rd.

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Even though he has lost more Finals than he has won? Bron is 3-4 in the Finals and has played his entire career in the East where he has had an easier path to the Finals every year than the team he faced. Also gives you an easier season when you have multiple teams you can play 20 and rest against, unlike the West that seems to have 3+ championship caliber teams every year.

And for the record, I have no problem putting LeBron at 5th all time. I don't think he has quite passed Magic and Kareem just yet.

Magic even played center for a stretch. He had his own sky hook. He could play any position. Lebron is similiar to Magic, but just not as good!

Jordan
Magic
Kareem
Etc....
Look at the stats on highest ppg in playoff history. MJ could not be covered by one man!

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Magic even played center for a stretch. He had his own sky hook. He could play any position. Lebron is similiar to Magic, but just not as good!

Jordan
Magic
Kareem
Etc....
Look at the stats on highest ppg in playoff history. MJ could not be covered by one man!

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Except he's a better defender, rebounder, and rim protecter when he plays big.