ESPN has been pimpin' the infamous debate a lot this week with it being MJ's birth week... Who do you take?


'Im not MJ, Im LJ' - King James

[This message has been edited by Broncos (edited 2/13/2013 6:42a).]

They do not compare.

Michael was the best I've seen, but LeBron is easily the 2nd best I've seen and closing in quickly.
Wow - he's good.

Tough to compare now because LBJ is 28, and the two played different positions in different eras.

However, whenever I hear this debate, I think, I wish I could have really seen Oscar, Wilt, Mikan, and Russell play. And then see their highlights over and over on SportsCenter, in commercials, and through the Internet. And also have a shoe company build an outstanding marketing campaign on them.


Also, I am one that believes career longevity and availability needs to be factored into the equation. For example, I would rather have Kareem for 20 seasons, than Russell's for only 11 + 2, but I'd still choose Russell over Parrish (21 seasons).

LJ has not yet matched the greatness of MJ's career, and probably will not. But he does still have a chance. Without looking at the numbers, I think he would have to keep producing like this for 4 or 5 more years and win at least two, probably three more rings.

That being said, I think Lebron, despite some of his bad habits, plays (usually, with a few glaring exceptions) a better brand of basketball than MJ did.

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That being said, I think Lebron, despite some of his bad habits, plays (usually, with a few glaring exceptions) a better brand of basketball than MJ did.

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Explain yourself. IMMEDIATELY.

he doesnt have to explain himself. he can believe whatever he wants

that being said, until lebron has a 30/8/8 season, give me a call

I never actually saw Jordan play pre-Wizards, so I don't really have much of an opinion on the comparison. However, Jordan's second best rebounding season would be Lebron's 8th best, and Jordan's second best assist season would be Lebron's 7th best. Jordan had one unwordly season for triple-doubles, but Lebron has maintained a pattern of being an elite rebounder and assist man for nearly a decade.

Here's an interesting stat though. Lebron is at 56.5%/42% shooting this season. Both percents are better than Jordan's best season. Lebron's FG% has increased every season except 06-07, when it dropped .4%.

The pro-Jordan statistics are points, career FG%, steals, and rings. The pro-Lebron stats are rebounds, assists, and career 3PT%. A statistical comparison is tough to make though, because they play different positions (if Lebron can even be said to have a position) in different eras on different teams, and Lebron is apparently still improving and has a long time yet to play. The separator right now is Jordan's "clutchness", but an honest look at last 5 minutes, game winning/tying attempts, and "transcendant games" shows that Lebron's resume is much stronger there than most people assume.

How old are you, Ulrich?

25, which means I was 11ish when Jordan retired the second time. I didn't get into basketball until 2000.

MJ all day based on mental toughness alone. I still take a prime Kobe Bryant over Lebron as well. No doubt Lebron is the greatest SF of all time, but he needs some more rings before you start comparing him to MJ, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, etc.

Bill Russell and his 40% career FG% ain't on that list either. If you're not a go to guy in the half court when your team needs a bucket, you're not the greatest ever.

The only guy I'd put up against MJ as the greatest basketball player of all time is Kareem and that's if and only if you count their college careers as well. Even then...

Lebron has clearly surpassed Bryant in the pantheon of stars. That's not even a question anymore.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 2/13/2013 1:04p).]

To throw another name in the discussion, I'd take Magic over Lebron if I'm starting a team. Nine appearances in the finals is pretty awesome, and he could play any position on the court.

LeBron has more Magic in him than Jordan.

Lebron just added a post game this season/playoffs last year (+/-). He could change the perception pretty quick.

Up to this point, MJ with no real consideration for James.

Up to this point, I would have taken Magic or Bird over Lebron.... but that is because James was a pansy in the paint. That has changed.

Bird and James are the most similar. Both were one of the best passers in the league, played excellent defense (James is better and more versatile), rebounded and could score at will from anywhere (Bird was a better "shooter"). Magic did not play as good on Defense and did not rebound as well IMO.

I did not watch much before the mid 80's.

When comparing, also remember that the NBA has undergone several rule changes to allow perimeter scorers, especially slashers like James/Durant/Wade to score easier. Jordan played a much more physical era where the defender could physically push against you with a hand check and a forearm check to prevent you from driving.

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When comparing, also remember that the NBA has undergone several rule changes to allow perimeter scorers, especially slashers like James/Durant/Wade to score easier. Jordan played a much more physical era where the defender could physically push against you with a hand check and a forearm check to prevent you from driving.

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Could the offensive player get away with initiating more contact in those days? Jordan's most iconic play was a blatant pushoff, although they still let stars get away with that as time runs out.

Flopping is a big part of the game nowadays, so in the old days could Lebron have gotten away with more power moves through rather than around the defender? He would also have even more of an advantage defensively; no one is getting through a Lebron hand-check. Does a less physical game really benefit a 6'8 260 pound perimeter player?

I think a less physical game definitely benefits Bron. He is obviously strong enough to fight through physical play, but he doesn't have to. Jordan wasn't nearly as strong as Bron, but he found through it and was a better finisher.

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Explain yourself. IMMEDIATELY.

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I just think MJ was more selfish. (Reminder: I think MJ, without question, had the better career and, while it is still possible for LJ to catch him, it is not very likely).



(Then again, it wasn't that long ago that people on this board were saying things like, "Dirk is a better player than Lebron" and "Lebron is overrated."

[This message has been edited by Bose Ikard (edited 2/13/2013 3:13p).]

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Lebron has clearly surpassed Bryant in the pantheon of stars. That's not even a question anymore.

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ah ok.

wait what?

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When comparing, also remember that the NBA has undergone several rule changes to allow perimeter scorers, especially slashers like James/Durant/Wade to score easier. Jordan played a much more physical era where the defender could physically push against you with a hand check and a forearm check to prevent you from driving.

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As true as this is (game evolving to benefit perimeter players), the game has also evolved (whether better defensive coaching or change from illegal defense to 3-sec def call or pace of the game) so that league wide scoring averages are down quite a bit from the Jordan era.

The last five years the PPG averages have ranged from 96 to 100 points. When Jordan entered the league until his first retirement, the PPG average was about 105 to 110 points.

Side note: Anytime I look at historical scoring, player or league, I always end up amazed at how dominant Wilt was.

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I never actually saw Jordan play pre-Wizards

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Sorry kid, then you really can't understand.

I love lebron, I liked him through the whole decision when everyone dogged him and liked him when he folded in the Dallas finals. He's is probably the most physically gifted player ever in NBA, and as was said he has a chance to get to Mike's level. But he's not there yet, and he's not yet really close. I'm excited to see lenron's career unfold, I'm a big fan as I was of Jordan. But he ain't Jordan.


[This message has been edited by Barryprofit (edited 2/13/2013 8:00p).]

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Jordan's most iconic play was a blatant push off

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What play are you talking about? Don't say the Russell/Jazz last second shot. That was money but far from his most iconic play.

Are you seriously quoting the sentence where I literally said I'm not going to offer an opinion to imply that I'm speaking out of turn? There's a reason I have only asked questions and listed stats without ever making a choice or stating an opinion. You should try reading the whole post and keep the condescending attitude to yourself. Actually, if you could read you would see that if anything I implied my opinion that MJ is still better. Maybe I didn't spend enough time kowtowing at the alter of his airness to make it clear to you.

The Russell shot is the iconic play though, and I can say that because I've still seen that play a million times even though I wasn't a basketball fan at the time. I can list off Jordan performances and moments just like any fan of the game, but for one iconic moment that is used to sum up his career in 5 seconds or less, that's the play that is chosen every time.



[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 2/13/2013 8:31p).]

Dp

[This message has been edited by Barryprofit (edited 2/13/2013 9:08p).]

Nah, it was just the last one. I'd rank the Ehlo buzzer beater and probably even the hand switch finger roll in the finals against the lakers ahead of those, but there's no real definitive play there were too many. That was my point.

The Russell play was hardly a push off anyways. He was already slipping because Jordan juked the s*** Out of him. That very minor push off wouldn't have been called against anyone at any time throughout history.

Saying Jordan's most icnonic play was a blatant push off is one of the most ridicuoius things I've heard.

And please stop listing stats. If you didn't wath Jordan play, you can't throw out stats to determine who's better. you just simply can't understand and should have stayed out of the conversation from the beginning.

Speaking of iconic Michael Jordan plays, this commercial is basically proof that you can't narrow them down to one. My favorite Air Jordan commercial ever. Even the shot of him chewing gum is iconic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9yQaGj46Nw

MJ > > > > LJ in clutch factor

Which is what's most important IMO

[This message has been edited by beebeegee (edited 2/13/2013 10:15p).]

Damn, Ninja. That's a killer commercial.

Seriously. Now watch the side by side. G.O.A.T.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZjbTq4DcAQ

I love MJ, but it's pretty ridiculous to act like he didn't push off Russell.

I love this video of Jordan and Kobe.

http://youtu.be/v27Hk5OIe-k

Eh. Kobe and Jordan play the same position and have 23000 shots combined. It is unsurprising that they have some similar shots.

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Eh. Kobe and Jordan play the same position and have 23000 shots combined. It is unsurprising that they have some similar shots.

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They have a very similar style, though Kobe is the better shooter. Jordan was clearly the greater player, but Kobe may be as close as anyone ever comes. Top 5 player all time.