The reason I have Shaq above Duncan boils down to this: For the 8-year period where the primes of their careers overlapped ('97-98 to '04-'05), if I was a GM starting a team and my first pick had to be Shaq or Duncan, I would have picked Shaq over Duncan each and every year. Not until Shaq's body started to decay after he had played 13 seasons and logged 39,800 minutes would I have taken Duncan over Shaq.

While Duncan in his prime was guarded well one-on-one over the years by such players and athletic equals like Rasheed Wallace, Jermaine O'Neal, Ben Wallace, and Tyson Chandler, there was no answer for Shaq in his prime. No one could guard him or even slow him down one-on-one or even hope to match him physically. No one. He destroyed everyone. You had to double him or hack him. Olajuwon at his peak couldn't handle a young, raw, slimmer Shaq (Shaq averaged 28.0/12.5/59.5% in '95 finals, look it up). Ewing couldn't handle him. Shaq made chopped liver out of elite hall-of-fame caliber centers like Mutombo and Robinson and competent ones like Longley, Divac, Sabonis, and Smits during his LA title run. He lit up Ben Wallace when no one lit up Ben Wallace in his Defensive-Player-of-the-Year prime for 27/11/63% in the '04 finals, including a monster 36/20 game 4.

It's close, and they both had great careers, but just watching both of them over the years, for the above reasons, I give the slight edge to Shaq for his unrivaled impact and dominance.

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Dirk has played every WC team except the Clippers. Scoreboard

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Oh yeah, forgot that Dallas played GSW in '07. The Spurs would have played GSW that year too if the Jazz hadn't managed to eliminate them in the 2nd round.

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A much harder team than the Spurs have ever faced in an NBA Finals matchup.

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Give me a friggin' break. Are you referring to the same Heat team that is currently struggling with the Indiana Pacers? You Dallas fans really struggle to find ways to make your 1 championship look like a lot more than what it really is.

Call me when your team has beaten a team on par with the Shaq/Kobe Lakers TWICE on their way to titles. Oh, and the 2005 Pistons were BETTER THAN the 2011 Heat. Without a doubt.

[This message has been edited by MassAggie97 (edited 5/18/2012 1:58p).]

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A much harder team than the Spurs have ever faced in an NBA Finals matchup. Hopefully the spurs actually face some stiff competition in the NBA Finals this year if they make it because they never really have.

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Pistons 05 was pretty tough. Reigning NBA Champs with 4 all-stars.

From 1985-2001, the Rockets broke 50 wins just 5 times.
They missed the playoffs three times in that stretch (two were his last two years when he was a shell of himself.)
They were knocked out of the playoffs in the first round 7 times.

So ten of Hakeem's 17 seasons in Houston, he either missed the playoffs or was knocked out in the first round.
Three seasons he made it to the Finals, winning twice. Made it to the WCF once and knocked out of the Semis 3 times.

Not so good on the resume of winning.

Duncan's winning resume is:
twice as many titles. 50+ wins every season for 15 years except the lockout-shorted 99 season when he was on pace for 60 wins and only had 2 losses in the playoff run including sweeping two super talented teams in Kobe/Shaq Lakers and the JailBlazers.

Duncan has never missed the playoffs. Duncan has 3 first round exits, one of which he didn't play because of a season-ending knee injury. One of those had no Ginobili and one had a hobbled Ginobili.
Duncan made the Finals or WCF 6 times so far, with a pretty promising look at a 7th this season.

Hakeem was solid every year from 85-97.

Hakeem wasn't knocked out of the playoffs. The Rockets were. Duncan didn't have a 50+ win season. The Spurs did.

Olajuwon also had five different GM's and three different coaches during those years. His best backcourt teammate was a 32-year-old Clyde Drexler.

You can't judge a player solely on their team's win/loss records and use that as a measuring stick for whether one player is better than another. It should be accounted for, but there is much more to it than those final numbers. But you already know that since you made it a point to bring up Ginobli's injury.

For further proof, just Google Kevin Love.

^ Thats a good argument, as long as you're ignoring the whole supporting cast factor, which you obviously are.

edit: to guitarsoup

[This message has been edited by nkc1981 (edited 5/18/2012 2:37p).]

I would also argue that Duncan in '03 was every bit as dominant as Shaq or Hakeem in their best year. He had his best stats that year including shooting 80% FT's. He absolutely destroyed Shaq with one of the most dominant performances I have ever seen to close out the Lakers on their home court and end their 3 year run. He closed out the NBA Title and his Finals MVP with a Triple double and 20/20 that was 2 blocks short of a Quad Double.

I also agree that Shaq was the more dominant offensive player in his prime, though Duncan was close. The key difference is Duncan was equally dominant defensively and Shaq was significantly less impressive on the other end. Also, Shaq was consistently passed over in the '90s in favor of Robinson/Hakeem/Ewing on the All NBA team for a reason.

Hakeem just isn't in the same conversation. He had far too many talented teams that didn't even make the playoffs. He didn't have the awards. He didn't have the overall career. A great, great player but just not in Duncan and Shaq's class.

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Hakeem wasn't knocked out of the playoffs. The Rockets were. Duncan didn't have a 50+ win season. The Spurs did.

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So Russell didn't win a bazillion titles, the Celtics did. Lets put him back down with any other no-score great defense center.

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It should be accounted for, but there is much more to it than those final numbers.

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His success and lack thereof should be taken account of. That's what gives Hakeem the nod over Robinson -Hakeem had the success in the Finals that Robinson didn't have. Other than that, their primes were pretty even statistically.

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Hakeem just isn't in the same conversation. He had far too many talented teams that didn't even make the playoffs. He didn't have the awards. He didn't have the overall career. A great, great player but just not in Duncan and Shaq's class.

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Hakeem had the same number of MVP awards that Shaq has and two more Defensive Player of the Year awards than both of them combined.

Shaq was physically dominant and scored more, but Duncan still totally dominated the offensive end of the court. Different kinds of "domination"; Shaq's was more obvious to the casual observer but Duncan's was just as profound.

Duncan was also dominated the defensive end... O'Neal blocked a lot of shots, but he didn't control the whole court like Duncan.

Shaquille O'Neal played a majority of his career at an 85% effort level. I honestly think if he would have played with a Kobe/Jordan level of motivation for the duration of his career, he would have been the greatest basketball player of all-time.

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I would also argue that Duncan in '03 was every bit as dominant as Shaq or Hakeem in their best year.

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That's just wrong.

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Hakeem just isn't in the same conversation. He had far too many talented teams that didn't even make the playoffs. He didn't have the awards. He didn't have the overall career. A great, great player but just not in Duncan and Shaq's class.

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Way overstated. I have Shaq and Timmy ahead of The Dream, career wise, but 1995 Hakeem is as good as any player that ever played, including MJ. I've never seen a more dominant playoff run, by anyone.

Here is what The Admiral, one of the best defensive big men to ever play the game, said about 1995 Hakeem:

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I don't know how I can say this with a straight face, but I actually thought I played him pretty good. He was just incredible. I've never seen anyone play like that

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(That's a paraphrase, but it is close. )

[This message has been edited by Whistling For Flies (edited 5/18/2012 2:58p).]

I know in 2001-2004 the Mavs were always focused on how to stop Shaq and how to make adjustments to account for Shaq on both ends. Duncan was always seen as more of a consistent part of the Spurs dominant system. You knew exactly what Duncan was doing and he would consistently do it - but it wasn't something that could throw off your whole approach. With Shaq there was the fear that he would go off for 50/20 in any game and they were always searching for gimmicks to slow him down.

Also instead of looking only at team playoff victories I would analyze playoffs stats. Did Hakeem raise his game in the playoffs and give his inferior teammates every chance to win or did he suffer from the Karl Maline Effect of playing worse in the playoffs?

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Hakeem just isn't in the same conversation. He had far too many talented teams that didn't even make the playoffs.

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You mean like:
91-92 where they had a coaching change mid-season
99-00 where Barkley was lost to a career-ending after 20 games and Hakeem only played 40 games due to injury
00-01 where Hakeem was basically done and should've retired (and they talent was Francis & Cuttino)

Hakeem was a great player who was not exactly surrounded by top talent

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I know in 2001-2004 the Mavs were always focused on how to stop Shaq and how to make adjustments to account for Shaq on both ends.

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That's why Cuban gave LaFrenz a $80mm contract?
You don't have a center combo of LaFrenz and Bradley to stop Shaq.

This statement makes no sense because Dallas did NOTHING to beef up their interior defense during that time. The only player remotely to guard Shaq was the 6'7 Danny Fortson who was just a throw in for the NVE-Jamison trade made AFTER the Spurs won the title in 03.

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With Shaq there was the fear that he would go off for 50/20 in any game and they were always searching for gimmicks to slow him down.

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Shaq topped 50 points once from 1998 to present.

What gimmicks did Dallas acquire to slow down Shaq?
03 Mavs Playoff roster:
C Bradley/LaFrenz/Eschmeyer
02 Mavs Playoff roster:
C LaFrenz/Bradley/Eschmeyer/Wang
01 Mavs Playoff Roster:
C Bradley/Calvin Booth/Wang

What great moves were the Mavs making to stop Shaq? The additions of Wang ZZ, Even Eschmeyer and Raef LaFrenz? Those are the Shaq Stoppers?

Ha. Forgot about Wang.

Bradley was never the same after Space Jam. Those aliens never gave him back his "talent"

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Those aliens never gave him back his "talent"

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How can you tell?

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Give me a friggin' break. Are you referring to the same Heat team that is currently struggling with the Indiana Pacers? You Dallas fans really struggle to find ways to make your 1 championship look like a lot more than what it really is.

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What do you mean, 'what it really is'?

The run was more impressive than any of the spurs runs. The mavs weren't favored by more than 50% in ANY otheir series. They SWEPT the same exact team (major emphasis on same exact) that won the championship the year before. The mavs made incredible comebacks against incredible odds and went on to take a **** on the dream team that everyone had predicted to sweep the Mavs.

Oh, the spurs beat shaq/kobe in 2003 but could barely beat a dirk-less Mavs in the WCF? (Needed steve kerr of all people to save them) Hardly impressive. The what-ifs should really be played with Webber getting injured anyways.

Dirk took a collection of crap (minus Chandler) to the finals twice and won it once. Of all people, Dirk should receive the most credit.

His vertical leap went from 6" to 5". Those darned aliens robbed Bradley from potentially being the GOAT

Shawn Bradley was an alien and a huge reason why the Mavs made the finals the season after he chose to retire.

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Dirk took a collection of crap

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It's funny how many Mavs fans understate their supporting cast to make Dirk look even better.

Oh yay. Another solid thread is deteriorating into mavs/spurs/rockets laugh cry pissing match.

You had to know where this thread was going before it started. The Dream/Duncan comparison is inevitable.

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What great moves were the Mavs making to stop Shaq? The additions of Wang ZZ, Even Eschmeyer and Raef LaFrenz? Those are the Shaq Stoppers?

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Like I said, Cuban/Nellie thought that it was impossible to stop Shaq with a traditional roster so that's why they had the gimmicky acquisitions and system. Cuban would go on DFW radio and explain how the only way to contain Shaq was to have your C and PF drawing him out to the perimeter to defend the 3. And he'd imply that you were a ****ing idiot if you didn't recognize that as the future of the nba. After 2004 Cuban changed philosophy and the Mavs finally started building with a winning formula.

[This message has been edited by Internetfan02 (edited 5/18/2012 4:08p).]

Yeah, that totally makes sense as to how you would plan to keep Shaq under 50 points and 20 boards.

And didn't Nellie invent Hack a Shaq?

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It's funny how many Mavs fans understate their supporting cast to make Dirk look even better.

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Am I really though? His best offensive 2nd options have been Josh Howard and Jason Terry.

Kobe/Shaq
Duncan/Parker/Ginobili/Robinson
Dwade/Shaq
Kobe/Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Artest

Not even comparable brah.

I'll never understand these certain Mavs fans that win one title and immediately think that accomplishment is better than what the Spurs have done.

The Spurs have done it 4 times. Remember how exhausted and crazy that title run was last year Mavs fans? Yes? The Spurs have done that 4 times. "Not impressive" says Masterplan. Ok.

[This message has been edited by TheDino (edited 5/18/2012 4:18p).]

I take shaq over TD for their prime. Shaq was a freak and could dominate on both sides if motivated.

But I agree that TD will have had the better career.

MJ is so easy because he dominated his entire career even when he was 40.

Bird and Magic both has short careers. Magic could have been rediculous if........ .

Wilt was similar to shaq. Bill Russel was phenomenal in a lot of similar ways to TD..... Winner.

Kobe has to be considered..... He still has years left.

I just know stats on Oscar.

Kareem was similar to TD.

If James ended his career today, he would not be top 10 IMO.

Look, every homer fan thinks more of their team. I understand that.

But calm down and enjoy your title without saying every other team's sucked and doesn't compare. That's just crazy.

[This message has been edited by TheDino (edited 5/18/2012 4:23p).]

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And didn't Nellie invent Hack a Shaq?

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It happened to him at LSU, so probably not.
People did it to Wilt way back in the day, since Wilt was even worse than Shaq. The NBA changed the rules of the game due to Hack-A-Wilt.

Nellie definitely brought it mainstream, though.

and Pop perfected the hack a shaq

[url\http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2LRDO4jiBo[/url]

we've all seen it but still awesom

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And didn't Nellie invent Hack a Shaq?

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This is a screaming bell and siren that lets us know you have absolutely no idea what has been going on in basketball the past 17 years, or the past 40 for that matter. All of your previous posts have now been debunked as absolute bull shat.