Duncan is not a center- never has been the same way Dirk is not a center

TD owned the mailman

Malone was a steroid freak and a pos

Dirk has always played next to a traditional center. Ridiculous statement.

Since Robinson got old Duncan has played most minutes next to either perimeter oriented bigs (Horry, Bonner), undersized bigs (Rose, Thomas, Blair) or as the only big in a small ball lineup. He plays the traditional post game and defensive game of a center. Hell the NBA tried to list him as a center a few years ago and he wouldn't allow it. The only reason he is considered a PF is because he happened to be drafted by a team that already had an all-star center.

Only butthurt Rockets and Mavs fans try to discount Timmy as the best PF of all time.

Just google it. 99% of polls you see regard him as the best PF off all time and that's the way the history books will be written long after we are all gone.

i forget that the same idiots just change there handles

dream>>>admiral..don't ever bring this discussion up again..unless you're too butthurt otherwise....lol

anyone who brings up terror ties and dream has one major case of the butthurt.

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What did you do tonight? I was paid to be a journalist at an NBA game. That's my job. I'm paid to be objective for a living

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And you're still a Spurs fan so what does that say? So because you're a journalist that gives your opinion more value? Just like all the talking heads of your ilk that voted Nevada better than us in football right? Nice bud...

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Duncan won more Championships than Malone.

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This is just awesome. Look, I watched the Mailman completely lose his **** and poop the bed when it mattered the most down the stretch WAY too much to even give him credence as being the best PF ever. Duncan destroys him hands down in the discussion of best ever. Statistically, Malone might have done more, but Duncan has brought home the championship 4 times for the Spurs.

I might give your argument a shrug of validity if Duncan only did it once, but he didn't. He brought home championships for the better part of a decade while Karl Malone put of Dominique Wilkins-like empty stats.

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Again, by this logic Robert Horry is better than Duncan (7 Championships to 4) so your "he's the best ever" is moot. Hell, Rodman is better than Duncan as well (5 championships to 4) by this arguement. I'm not sure ya'll thought this through yet again, but we'll use your logic and go by championships.

Duncan was the main player on 4 Championships. Malone was the main player on 0 Championships. The Horry argument is asinine and only goes to make you look like an imbecile.

Malone was not a great defender, but Duncan is by all accounts one of the best defenders at his position ever. Duncan was a much better rebounder and shot blocker.

Malone is simply not even close to as good as Duncan is. The only thing he has over Duncan is points.

Everything else - rebounds, defense, blocks, championships - is in Duncan's favor.

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Malone was not a great defender, but Duncan is by all accounts one of the best defenders at his position ever. Duncan was a much better rebounder and shot blocker.

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Not a great defended but he still has more steals per game than Duncan. Funny how that works.

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Malone is simply not even close to as good as Duncan is. The only thing he has over Duncan is points.

Everything else - rebounds, defense, blocks, championships - is in Duncan's favor.

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It's funny how in "everything else" you conveniently leave out Assists and steals. I'm pretty sure those stats matter. Not to mention you say "defense" but Malone had more steals per game than Duncan, but I guess steals don't count either huh?

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Duncan was the main player on 4 Championships. Malone was the main player on 0 Championships. The Horry argument is asinine and only goes to make you look like an imbecile.

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I'm the imbecile? You ignore stats that don't fit your argument...see my post above. You leave out Steals and assists and only bring up blocks and rbs because they fit your "Duncan is a God" argument. In fact, of the main stats that are measured (pts, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks, FG%, FT%) Malone has the edge in 5 of those 7...but I mean don't worry about those stats right?

You say Duncan has better "defense" but the 2 measurable stats for defense (blocks and steals) are split even between the 2 players. then you say "duncan has 4 championships", get called out about using championships, now it's "Oh well Duncan was the main player" BS. Give me a break. If you wanna use championships then use them, but don't get butt hurt when your argument gets smacked around by facts (Horry, Rodman, etc...). you're insane man crush on anything Spurs is showing and it's not a good look on you sir.

Again, I don't have a dog in this fight...i'm not a Rockets or Mavs fan as was mentioned above so I have no reason to "hate" the spurs as some might. I just actually look at facts, not mancrushs

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Not a great defended but he still has more steals per game than Duncan. Funny how that works.

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Steals being a very important part of a power forward's game?

In 1989, 17 out of 25 teams had over 700 steals. Last year, 2 teams had over 700 steals and one of those had 701 steals. The game is different and a steal then isn't nearly as valuable as a steal now with all the rule changes. Of course with the logic you are showing, I doubt you understand any of that.

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It's funny how in "everything else" you conveniently leave out Assists and steals. I'm pretty sure those stats matter.

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Do they matter when comparing power forwards? Is 3.6 assists per game vs 3.2 assists per game as important as a 15% advantage in rebounding?

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Not to mention you say "defense" but Malone had more steals per game than Duncan, but I guess steals don't count either huh?

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Bruce Bowen is one of the best perimeter defenders ever. Steve Nash is one of the worst perimeter defenders ever. Both Nash and Bowen averaged 0.8 steals per game for their career.

What does that prove? That you are an idiot that doesn't know what you are talking about.

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You leave out Steals and assists and only bring up blocks and rbs because they fit your "Duncan is a God" argument.

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I bring up stats that are relevant. Steals and Assists would be important if we were comparing SGs or PGs. But we are comparing post players.

What is more important for a power forward? Steals and assists or rebounds and blocks?

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You say Duncan has better "defense" but the 2 measurable stats for defense (blocks and steals) are split even between the 2 players.

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Duncan has been on 13 All-Defense teams, including 8 All-Defense First Teams.
No forward or center has been on more All-Defense First Teams.
NO OTHER NBA PLAYER EVER has been on more than 11 All-Defense teams.
Malone has been on 4 All-Defense teams.

Duncan is far and away the better defender.

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then you say "duncan has 4 championships", get called out about using championships, now it's "Oh well Duncan was the main player" BS. Give me a break.

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Talk about selecting what criteria you will use. Duncan has been the main player on 4 championships. He has 3 Finals MVPs. Malone has done what?

Being the main player on a championship team is pretty ****ing important. A hell of a lot more important than being the 7th option on a championship team (Kerr/Horry.)

Anyone with the reasoning ability higher than an Alzheimer's patient can understand that. You apparently cannot.

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I just actually look at facts

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No, you ignore the facts.

You cannot argue with these facts:
Duncan is a better defender than Malone.
Duncan has won more than Malone.
Duncan was a better rebounder than Malone.
Malone was a better scorer than Duncan.
Every panel of experts that has voted on the best power forward in the past 5 years has ranked Duncan higher than Malone.

Yet somehow you extrapolate that Malone is better than Duncan? Absolute imbecile. Keep ignoring the facts, they don't help you.

Did Simplebay change his username to prepyag03? Holy sh-t.

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dream>>>admiral

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For the billionth time, for the galactically dense....Dream was a better basketball player. Show me where anyone has said any different.

You guys argue like women. You don't really have a whole lot of pertinent information to add to the discussion, so you just change the discussion.

So I'm an idiot because I think that the 2nd all time leading scorer IN NBA HISTORY, who averages more points, assists, steals, FG and FT% than another player is better? I'm done with this conversation since you can't A)discuss this without refraining to name calling and B) put your obvious man crush on Tim Duncan aside. It's sad that you have to stoop to name calling though based on an irrelevant discussion between grown men.

As a previous poster said, everything Spurs is the best ever...Robinson, Duncan, Parker, Manu, they're all the best at their respective positions. There you go, now the world is right for you sir. You can now relax and take a breath, lmao

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Again, you have to try to shift the discussion/argument to things that weren't even said.

Duncan was the best ever, at his position. That's my position, as it is a majority of other basketball fans. Nobody ever said any more than that.

You are welcome debate all you want about who was the better power forward. Yeah, Karl Malone had a better PPG for his career. Big deal. Show me one moment in time when he dominated a conference championship or finals on BOTH ENDS OF THE FLOOR the way Tim Duncan did in '99, '03 or '05.

You don't become "best ever" by maximizing your regular season PPG.

Duncans shot per games is drastically lower than Malones- Hell Sloans offensive system turned Boozer into a star with similar stats

Duncan could have led the league in scoring multiple times if he was on a crap team

It's definitely simplebay.

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Again, I don't have a dog in this fight...i'm not a Rockets or Mavs fan as was mentioned above so I have no reason to "hate" the spurs as some might. I just actually look at facts, not mancrushs

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Just stop clown. Next thing we'll hear is that you're objectively saying that George Gervin was not very good at using the finger roll. Has nothing to do with him being a Spur, it's just that so-and-so....blah blah blah. STFU Donny.

complete overuse of laughing/crying emoticon ... hmmm

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Duncan could have led the league in scoring multiple times if he was on a crap team

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You proved my point entirely...ya'll want to use Championships as a barometer, but Duncan was on SIGNIFICANTLY better teams than Malone. Not to mention that his shots per game don't matter when his FG% is also better.

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Just stop clown. Next thing we'll hear is that you're objectively saying that George Gervin was not very good at using the finger roll. Has nothing to do with him being a Spur, it's just that so-and-so....blah blah blah. STFU Donny.

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Classic internet tough guy. Dont you have a session of P90X to do then stare at yourself in the mirror? I'm sorry I'm not a Spurs homer. I really am...i think you could sleep better at night if I was. LMAO

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complete overuse of laughing/crying emoticon ... hmmm

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um, ok. Take it easy Van Alden.

Like I said before:

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As a previous poster said, everything Spurs is the best ever...Robinson, Duncan, Parker, Manu, they're all the best at their respective positions. There you go, now the world is right for you sir. You can now relax and take a breath, lmao

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Duncan was on SIGNIFICANTLY better teams than Malone.

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Yeah, you're right. John Stockton, Jeff Hornacek, and Bryon Russell were real slouches. Only the best pure PG of all time, one of the greatest outside shooters in NBA history, and one of the better wing defenders of the time.

Thurl Bailey, Jeff Malone and Tom Chambers were also slouches.

Oh wow, so Tony Parker is better than John Stockton? I take back what I said earlier about you hating the Spurs. That's some serious love right there. Undeserved, but love nonetheless.

I love Timmy and David, but Hakeem was, in his prime, far and way the best player of the three.

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I love Timmy and David, but Hakeem was, in his prime, far and way the best player of the three.

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Shhhh, you'll be berated as a Rockets homer in 3, 2, 1...

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I love Timmy and David, but Hakeem was, in his prime, far and way the best player of the three.

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There's debate there re: Timmy vs. Hakeem. Dont' really know how you could say "far and away" though. He potentially had "far and away" the best playoff run in '95, but take that Spurs series away and you take away half his highlight reel.

As discussed many times before on this board:

Hakeem: Higher Peak
Duncan: Better Career

4 titles and a decade of dominance in the league......

Duncan is the Man.... Dave was as well

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Malone is simply not even close to as good as Duncan is.

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Duncan is the best PF of all time. But if he's a 10 (in a scale of 1-10), Malone is a 9 or 9.5. I never liked Malone, but to discount him completely like you're doing is silly.

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Are you serious? Dang that dude was sick!

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Look up Larry Brown's quote on Wilt.


David was a better athlete than Olajuwon (looking at measurables. He was 2"+ taller, ran faster, jumped higher, could lift more, etc).

Olajuwon was a better player if I needed a star. If I needed a role player, I might take David over Olajuwon.

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If I needed a role player, I might take David over Olajuwon.

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A role player?
MVP of the league, 2x NBA Champion, DPOY, ROY, etc.

Not sure you know what a role player is. Robert Horry, Bruce Bowen and Steve Kerr are role players.

I think I get BBDP's point... but it's just sort of a stupid one to bring up when you are talking about Robinson and Hakeem.

To defend BBDP's point, Robinson essentially was a role player between 1999-2003. And in my mind those years are what cemented his legacy as a champion. Name another superstar HOF player who took a backseat role to a younger player, accepted an entirely new role as a defensive specialist/utility player, never pouted or became belligerent, and won 2 championships in the process.

The only other player I can think of who did anything similar to that was Kareem.

In 2000, Robinson was 18/10/2 and was an all-star. He was Top 5 in blocks and PER, and top 10 in rebounds. The only centers that beat his 18ppg were Shaq and Zo.

That's not really role player production, though he was clearly second banana at that point.

No matter the topic, it seems that every single thread gets ruined by fans of the other two Texas teams. It's a huge reason why the board generally sucks now and has for a few years. Robinson was a GREAT player. Obviously Hakeem was too, but if we want to talk about that, we can make a different thread for him. Why can't we let Spurs fans celebrate their best/favorite player without the same old arguments popping up?

With that said, there are some ridiculous posts from both sides on this one. MassAggie seems to have a pretty good grasp on the situation, but some of the rest of you guys are acting like clowns.

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He couldn't put up 70 like Robinson did.

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He never had a reason to try. 70 points is quite an accomplishment, but let's not forget that it didn't exactly happen in the natural flow of the game. When your team has that as its only goal for the night, and they feed you the ball every time, it's certainly possible for any player of that caliber to put up that kind of number. I remember thinking at the time that it was kinda bush league, actually. But I'm a Rockets fan, and quite honestly, it doesn't matter what I think. Good for Robinson. Scoring titles don’t come easy.

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People forget though that the Rockets won that series 4-2 and that Robinson had nowhere near the same supporting cast.

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Boiling the competition down to only 6 games is ridiculous anyway, so I won't ever do that. But please don't bring up the supporting casts. Olajuwon wasn't exactly playing with the Dream Team at the time.

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The dream only won it because MJ got bored and played a little baseball.

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Yeah, it just doesn't compare to those four different seasons where Robinson and Duncan took down MJ and Pippen in the finals. Those Spur titles were clearly earned, but the Rockets titles were basically given to them for charity.

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Robinson gets a community service award named after him.

Hakeem allegedly supports terrorist organizations.

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That's still one of the most pathetic forms of smack that anyone could possibly run. Hakeem did his share in the community, and the terrorist stuff (which was absurd to begin with) should have ended once this info was announced:

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Olajuwon told the AP he had not known of any links to terrorism when the donations were made, prior to the government's crackdown on the groups, and would not have given the money if he had known.

"There is no way you can go back in time," Olajuwon said in a telephone interview from Jordan, where he is studying Arabic. "After the fact, now they have the list of organizations that are banned by the government."

A Treasury Department spokeswoman, Molly Millerwise, declined to discuss Olajuwon's contributions but said, "In many cases donors are being unwittingly misled by the charities."

Federal law enforcement officials said they were not investigating Olajuwon

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No other power foward is anywhere near Duncan on the list of best PFs of all time.

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Duncan is the best, but to say that Bob Pettit, Elvin Hayes, and Karl Malone aren’t anywhere near is pretty ridiculous.

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Duncan has 4 more championships than the second, third and fourth best PFs of all time combined.

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Quite honestly, you're better than this, soup. You've got a pretty good history of supporting your opinions with stats and such, but to pull out the number of championships card in a team sport is pretty weak.

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You can ask any NBA player which he would rather want, an MVP or finals MVP. Every single one of them would take the latter.

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Wow... way to go out on a limb! Obviously players would rather play with a finals MVP, because that would mean that they won a championship! That doesn't make that particular player any better than the regular season MVP.

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Last year, when Slam Magazine tried to rank the top 50 players of all time, Duncan was ranked 8th. Malone was ranked 18th.

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And they put Shaq #4. Of all time. At any position. Let that sink in for a minute. Real nice list they put together. The Duncan/Malone argument aside, I'm not sure that Slam Magazine's list is the one you want to use.

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Because you don't have a favorite team doesn't make you objective or unbiased.

What did you do tonight? I was paid to be a journalist at an NBA game. That's my job. I'm paid to be objective for a living.

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Dude, you're a photographer. A damn good one, and most certainly a journalist, but stop pretending that you're the king of basketball objectivity because you run circles around us when it comes to using a camera. You’re not exactly breaking down games with Ernie, Kenny, and Chuck at halftime. You get paid to take pictures, not analyze the NBA. Your opinions are valid, but they're still opinions, and no more meaningful than anyone else’s.

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Like I said you're a butthurt slur fan...san mexico only got good because they tanked the whole season to get the number 1 draft pick which was duncan...this is common knowledge.

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Good lord this is embarrassing. Forget the immature nicknames... let's just focus on the "tanking" argument. I do think that the Spurs tanked to get Duncan. But how do you think the Rockets got Olajuwon? We can’t point fingers at anyone for this sort of thing.

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Robinson is STILL out there building the team and the city up. Hakeem is paying suicide bombers.

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Still pathetic. Still not clever.

And even though I'm a Rockets fan, I'll still say that Houston fans generally look like idiots on these threads, too. A conversation about Robinson shouldn't be seen as an invitation to mention Hakeem, or a particular six-game stretch that was fun to watch but doesn't amount to much in the end.

The thread is titled “How good was David Robinson?” The answer: he was amazing. He’s one of the best players of all time. San Antonio is lucky to have had him. I would have loved to have had him in Houston.

But only because Otis Thorpe needed a breather from time to time.


[This message has been edited by Gramercy Riffs (edited 12/2/2010 10:37a).]

GR must not have a lot to do today.

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Boiling the competition down to only 6 games is ridiculous anyway, so I won't ever do that. But please don't bring up the supporting casts. Olajuwon wasn't exactly playing with the Dream Team at the time.

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Hakeem wouldn't have traded players 2-12 for Robinson's 2-12. Rudy T is a top 5 coach of the last 30 years (Phil, Pop, Larry, Rudy, ...?)
Bob Hill was fired from the Spurs the next year, couldn't get a job for 2 years, then got hired by FORDHAM university where he put up a 36-78 record and was fired from there. In his last year at Fordham (with plenty of time to build talent,) Hill put up a 2-23 record. Bob Hill was one of the worst NBA caoches in the last 30 years.

How well Rudy T out-coached Hill (and everyone else for two years) is one of the most over-looked parts of that series.

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Yeah, it just doesn't compare to those four different seasons where Robinson and Duncan took down MJ and Pippen in the finals. Those Spur titles were clearly earned, but the Rockets titles were basically given to them for charity.

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Agree. Anyone that says the Rockets didn't earn those titles is stupid.

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Quite honestly, you're better than this, soup. You've got a pretty good history of supporting your opinions with stats and such, but to pull out the number of championships card in a team sport is pretty weak.

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Sorry, but if you are looking at the body of work of a star player, winning championships has to factor in. Duncan not only got it done, but he put up some of the best playoff performances ever. If rings was the only thing I considered, it would be foolhardy, but it clearly isn't.

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Dude, you're a photographer. A damn good one, and most certainly a journalist, but stop pretending that you're the king of basketball objectivity because you run circles around us when it comes to using a camera. You’re not exactly breaking down games with Ernie, Kenny, and Chuck at halftime. You get paid to take pictures, not analyze the NBA. Your opinions are valid, but they're still opinions, and no more meaningful than anyone else’s.

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I get paid to write, interview and research as well. I do a lot more than just hit the shutter button. Photography is simply the most visible aspect of what I do.

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Still pathetic. Still not clever.

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That's like your opinion, man. I thought it was very clever. I also thought it was neat how you acknowledged that a Robinson thread should be about Robinson and then....you couldn't help yourself. Spurs fans have just accepted that, for whatever reason, Robinson is to Rockets as Palin is to Libs. Your post continued that trend, but it had the added benefit of being hypocritically preachy.

I'm as big of a Rudy backer as anyone, but come on. There are a lot of points you can use to argue the case for either Olajuwon or Robinson, but coaching doesn't have that much of an impact as the other factors mentioned. Rudy was a good coach, but his style was basically to let them play. Dump it into Hakeem and if nothing works, kick it outside for a jumper. That's it.

The past 30 years?

Phil Jackson
Larry Brown
Pat Riley
Gregg Popovich
Don Nelson (even though he went nuts)
Maybe even George Karl