AstroPete said:

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You better believe Kellen has people in his ear at every turn telling him what he should do. Telling him who he represents. Telling him what is expected. It's a sad arrangement.

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What if you're wrong? What you are suggesting is that he is incapable of acting on his own accord with his own conviction.

TxAg2012WC said:

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PabloSerna said:

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THE_CHOSEN_ONE said:

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What is wrong with him being a Texas Ranger and CSA general?

He fought Comanches as a Ranger, is your contention that the Rangers shouldn't have fought the Comanches?

As far as fighting for the Confederacy, it's not like he had a choice. Every man of fighting age had to fight, those who refused were killed. He joined as private, but was such a good warrior/leader that he quickly rose to the rank of general by the time he was 25. Is it a problem that he excelled at being a soldier, is that something he should be faulted for?

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Since you asked... visit this site for a fuller understanding.

Look - war was/is hell. He did what he did.

I still cannot get one of you to answer my question - if it's just a statue, what's it to you to have it relocated to a space dedicated to TAMU history?

These feelings about systemic racism and inequality have been around for as long as I can remember. This statue and others commemorating the life of men (mostly men) that had a hand in the early part of Texas history serve as a reminder to many, I will put my self in that group, that an era came to a violent end for a people and a new one began. When you can fully understand that, and I contend that for many Anglo-Americans it is impossible, then maybe you can see what we see when we pass these monuments.

I realize many here are not racist - just not sympathetic to a very real issue at TAMU.

+pablo

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"mostly men." Tipped your ideological hand a bit here lol.

"When you can fully understand that, and I contend that for many Anglo-Americans it is impossible, then maybe you can see what we see when we pass these monuments."

Hmm implying all white people are Anglo, your name is Pablo, and you are making broad statements about a racial catagory. Interesting details here. Very interesting.

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TxAg2012WC.. did your parents actually name you that? I know this is a fan board for Aggie Football, so I'm just responding in kind.

1. I think my point about most statues being male may have zoomed by you - it was intended to point out a bias.

2. "Many Anglo-Americans" does not mean most as you interpreted incorrectly.

3. Please elaborate on why my name has anything to do with racism?

Your turn :-)

I highly doubt I'm wrong. When was the last time any college football staring quarterback at a division 1 school didn't have people in his ear about anything? And I'm not suggesting he isn't capable of independent thought, he very well might have first went at this on his own. But it wouldn't have been very long before interested parties got involved. I'm not a black man but I do understand thru listening to many of them talk about being black and it comes with certain responsibilities especially when you are in a position of influence. I'm not saying it's right or wrong or a universal practice but there's no way that black rights activists leaders haven't reached out to him to offer their guidance and support. I mean Kaepernick started his little crusade on his own and then people swooped in to back it up, but nobody actually helped him come up with a better idea which there were sooo many better ways that could have been handled. It cost him his job and really made him look bad. Those people are no longer at his side, they've already used him as a martyr and moved on. Just make sure you really believe in something if you're going to put yourself out there like that. I'm afraid so far the only thing Mond has done is put himself in position to see a really really ugly side of A&M that definitely isn't the A&M he has experienced to this point. After he graduates I wouldn't be surprised if he distances himself from this University and will think of it as a very racist school. The haters have already come out of the wood work and i bet he gets the worst of it from people who never even attended the school.

And this is why we cannot even entertain moving sully.

Pablo,

Do you also support the defunding of The Corps of Cadets? Are they all racist?

Knee jerk reactions to labels other cast upon you.

Quote:

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Has anyone heard from Charlene Sumlin lately?

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She has't apparently written any recent letters.

Throw out the parts of the bible written by Paul because he persecuted and murdered Christians earlier in his life.

Excellent post, OP.

Just FYI, I am very interested in the Cynthia Ann Parker story and came across a book, Myth, Memory, and Massacre, by two Tech professors, Paul Carlson and Tom Crum. The book argues that Parker's husband was NOT killed at Pease River by Sul Ross (as he at times claimed) and Quanah was not at the battle. I have not read the book yet but did watch this video of Carlson discussing his thesis. He thinks that Gwynne is wrong. I don't know who to believe. You may be interested in it:

There is a lot to digest in Nonrefdrummer09's post. Let's start with what he (or she) calls the
"Jaybird-Woodpecker Incident"

The Jaybird Woodpecker Fort Bend county coup d'tat of 1889 is particularly useful for understanding Ross later in his life. Contrary to what Nonrefdrummer09 has to say, it is not "difficult to know exactly how much Sul Ross would have had involvement in" the complete replacement of the county's duly elected mainly black officials with white Jaybirds. All one has to do is check out Texas History online from the Texas State Historical Association. Ross traveled to Richmond (Fort Bend county seat) himself and negotiated the takeover. They write, "The Houston Light Guards arrived to establish martial law, and Governor Lawrence S. Ross and the Brenham Light Guards arrived on August 17. Governor Ross remained in Richmond several days to act as mediator. A complete reorganization of county government resulted in the removal or resignation of all Woodpecker officials and the selection of Jaybirds or persons acceptable to the Jaybirds to fill the offices. After a turbulent era of more than twenty years, the white citizenry once more controlled the government."


https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/wfj01


Thoughts?

Seems as if there was a great deal of violence and death occurring in the area and as governor, Ross went in and tried to establish peace. He served as a moderator for both sides.

https://www.legendsofamerica.com/tx-jaybirdwar/

If Mond learned his history and not revisioned to fit a liberal agenda maybe he wouldn't have posted that.

I don't know what this means but I sent it and got this reply.

"Hahaha. TLDR. GTFO"

This young people lingo is bizarre.

Pease said:

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cevans_40 said:

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Seems as if there was a great deal of violence and death occurring in the area and as governor, Ross went in and tried to establish peace. He served as a moderator for both sides.

https://www.legendsofamerica.com/tx-jaybirdwar/

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Come on, 'Mediator for both sides'?! That is what it says on some rando website, but what happened as a result of that 'mediation' ?

From the TSA "A complete reorganization of county government resulted in the removal or resignation of all Woodpecker officials and the selection of Jaybirds or persons acceptable to the Jaybirds to fill the offices. After a turbulent era of more than twenty years, the white citizenry once more controlled the government."

https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/wfj01

Ross was a Jim Crow segregationist, among other things.

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I actually think he was there for a few days to help stop the violence, I think the full "mediation" was conducted by an individual appointed by Ross but I can't remember his name. Maybe removing the woodpeckers was Ross' idea, maybe not, maybe he felt it was the only way to stop the violence, maybe he did because he want democratic control of the county, I don't know the answer to that, is what I mean.

Nonregdrummer09 said:

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Pease said:

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cevans_40 said:

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Seems as if there was a great deal of violence and death occurring in the area and as governor, Ross went in and tried to establish peace. He served as a moderator for both sides.

https://www.legendsofamerica.com/tx-jaybirdwar/

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Come on, 'Mediator for both sides'?! That is what it says on some rando website, but what happened as a result of that 'mediation' ?

From the TSA "A complete reorganization of county government resulted in the removal or resignation of all Woodpecker officials and the selection of Jaybirds or persons acceptable to the Jaybirds to fill the offices. After a turbulent era of more than twenty years, the white citizenry once more controlled the government."

https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/wfj01

Ross was a Jim Crow segregationist, among other things.

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I actually think he was there for a few days to help stop the violence, I think the full "mediation" was conducted by an individual appointed by Ross but I can't remember his name. Maybe removing the woodpeckers was Ross' idea, maybe not, maybe he felt it was the only way to stop the violence, maybe he did because he want democratic control of the county, I don't know the answer to that, is what I mean.

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Also, my point is that Mond is indicating that Ross caused violence in that incidence, when in fact he was trying to stop it.

I'm not convinced that the minorities pushing for equality really want to end up with true and unilateral equality.
FAIRNESS, yes, absolutely. But equality? Doubt it.
Because coming at it from another angle, this would also require an immediate evaporation of literally every group, organization, college fund, TV channel, or anything else out there that suggests a separation or delineation of any kind for any race, religion, and/or ethnic group.

There is equality in opportunity and equality in outcomes. BLM/Antifa/Mond/Muslim Brotherhood appear to support...outcomes, basically (but only for some blacks). This is problematic, as Jordan Peterson would say.

I agree with the last sentiment. I'm actually hoping the Association calls me again to ask for my annual contribution so i can tell them that I won't be giving any $ to the University until this is put to bed.

Never have understood the necessity of the Congressional Black Caucus either. Why make that special or unique to just being a congressman?

A quick search showed that in 1860 there were 3000 freed people (black) who owned slaves.

How do we reconcile this?

Do we finally look back and judge people based on the era they live?

Do we find out who these black slave owners were and track their descendants?

Or do we recognize that all these people (whites and blacks) were Flawed and willing to own slaves as that was customary at the time?

Carnwellag2 said:

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A quick search showed that in 1860 there were 3000 freed people (black) who owned slaves.

How do we reconcile this?

Do we finally look back and judge people based on the era they live?

Do we find out who these black slave owners were and track their descendants?

Or do we recognize that all these people (whites and blacks) were Flawed and willing to own slaves as that was customary at the time?

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Weren't these slaves black people?

Not sure if you are just hammering the point that Sullivan Ross was on the wrong side of history...

OR

If you think it was just part of the time and we should not be so critical - because, you know, everybody did it.

+pablo

Then maybe he shouldn't have judged people he doesn't know and called them racists.

BarKeep_03 said:

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Quote:

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Reliable persons, who have left Vicksburg within the past week, state that the Yankees are in constant dread of an attack, and that a number of the merchants packed up their goods and prepared to leave at a moment's notice. Gen. Ross, the gallant Texas "Negro killer," made a descent upon two brigades of black Yankees, at Snyder's bluff, on Wednesday, the 30th ultimo, killed and captured quite a number of them, and drove the remainder into Vicksburg in great confusion and disorder. Two regiments of whites were sent out to reinforce the blacks, and they too came back at a double-quick. Several cannon, it is said, came lumbering into the city without any riders on the horses. Ross followed them to within one mile of the city, when they opened on him from their fortifications, and he was compelled to fall back. We should not be surprised to hear of him in Vicksburg before long. Memphis (TN) Daily Appeal, 20 April 1864, page 2

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The quote in concern. Pg. 69 of your paper

Am I reading this correctly, the term "Negro Killer" was a moniker given by this publisher? I don't find any other references to this nickname.

I also didn't find any instances of him embracing this nickname. Is an offensive nickname given by a 3rd party reason to vilify someone?

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They were trying to sell books, and made up a scary sounding name that he never went by. Common for the era, but clouds reality today, unfortunately.

dfleig said:

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This whole thing is ridiculous. Mond has a right to his opinion but that doesn't mean any of us want to hear it or give it any credibility, any more than we want to hear political commentary from Lebron James or all the Hollywood snowflakes. There is a very dangerous false narrative being driven by the Woke Taliban that America suffers from systemic racism, which is demonstratively false! All this nonsense that results in Gundy being vilified for wearing an OAN t-shirt is a product of fascism pure and simple (ironically much of which has been stoked on college campuses over the past decade). Why the hell are we letting this fools dictate to us what constitutes acceptable speech? The first amendment guarantees free speech, offensive or otherwise, PERIOD.
Back to Mond - get ready for BAS to set in because the way this deal is trending he will quit the team and once again we will have an inexperienced QB trying to compete against the best defenses in the county. Wait till next year once again. Just makes me want to puke.
Bottom line: I can live without Mond and college football for that matter. But Sully stays or TAMU will never see another dollar from me.

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As much as I love college football, the truth is more important. It's unfortunate that this can't just be an ongoing dialogue in parallel with playing sports and attending class. Now, it's a my way or the highway situation when even wanting to discuss things like this before making knee-jerk decisions is heresy.

Earlier... "I don't think anyone would deny one of the main causes of the confederacy was preserving slavery, however this is not why Sul Ross joined."

This is why the statue will stay. Many Aggies will pinch their noses about the Civil War involvement by men such as Sullivan Ross and rationalize to no end why this man's sh*t does not stink (to put it bluntly).

Well, it stinks and it always will.

+pablo

One could argue that Sully should stay as a symbol of the reform and change that people are seeking.

In his early years, yes, he did things (and/or was a part of things) that understandably infuriate the minorities.
But in his later years he became one of their biggest proponents, doing what he could, in THAT era, against the odds.

Isn't that literally what we're seeking? For people to change?
Does Sully not literally represent someone who DID fight against them, but later fought FOR them?

Pease said:

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cevans_40 said:

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Seems as if there was a great deal of violence and death occurring in the area and as governor, Ross went in and tried to establish peace. He served as a moderator for both sides.

https://www.legendsofamerica.com/tx-jaybirdwar/

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Come on, 'Mediator for both sides'?! That is what it says on some rando website, but what happened as a result of that 'mediation' ?

From the TSA "A complete reorganization of county government resulted in the removal or resignation of all Woodpecker officials and the selection of Jaybirds or persons acceptable to the Jaybirds to fill the offices. After a turbulent era of more than twenty years, the white citizenry once more controlled the government."

https://tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/wfj01

Ross was a Jim Crow segregationist, among other things.

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Looks like associate professor Alvard has been eating chalk, again.

How goes it, prof Mike?

I think you are correct. Pease is most certainly Alvard.

Mister Mystery Guest said:

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Has anyone heard from Charlene Sumlin lately?

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She spent the weekend with me here in Bryan !

Jbob04 said:

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I think you are correct. Pease is most certainly Alvard.

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It's pretty much confirmed at this point.