You better believe Kellen has people in his ear at every turn telling him what he should do. Telling him who he represents. Telling him what is expected. It's a sad arrangement.
A quick fact check: Kellen
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Last: 4 yr ago by Fat Bib Fortuna
I think you're missing several things about his involvement at Pease River. While it was a response to Nocona's raids through Texas his actions taken after the "battle" were not something to celebrate, which he did. It was only a handful of women left at the camp as the others had already left, not the war party of several hundred they were chasing. Ross' accounts of the event described it as "The fruits of this important victory can never be computed in dollars and cents. The great Comanche confederacy was forever broken, the blow was decisive, their illustrious chief slept with his fathers and with him were most of his doughty warriors." While there are no accounts of Ross killing any of the women once he realized they weren't warriors that I have seen, he seemed view what happened as something of a moment to be proud of and celebrate. Other's who were there recognized it as what it was. H. B Rogers descriptions of the events were as follows: "I was in the Pease River fight, but I am not very proud of it. That was not a battle at all, but just a killing of squaws. One or two bucks and 16 squaws were killed. The Indians were getting ready to leave when we came upon them."
Based on the accounts of Ben Dragoo who was also present they were aware of the fact that women and children were present, and there was only an estimated 15 of them before the attack began. The fact that they were aware of this before the attack and Ross ordered the cavalry to circle around behind them before the attack to stop people fleeing is also a concerning matter. They killed 6 to 8 women trying to escape, as described by Charles Goodnight as "The Sergeant and his men fell in behind on the squaws, six or eight in number, who never got across the first bend of the creek. They were so heavily loaded with meat, tent poles, and camp equipage that their horses could not run. We supposed they had about a thousand pounds of buffalo meat in various stages of curing. The sergeant and his men killed ever one of them, nearly in a pile."
Ross built a narrative of the event to bolster his political and military career, fabricating and embellishing the story to present himself as a hero. Then another narrative that he seemed to want to run with regarding the motives of the Confederacy was that since a majority of soldiers did not own slaves it wasn't about slavery. The truth was the confederacy conscripted soldiers to fight for them. There were many people who were unwilling to fight for the Confederacy, and some of them fled north and joined the Union army. They also used tactics like offering citizenship to immigrants who would serve in the army. It still boils down to slavery, and the wealthy and powerful using what resources they had to build up their army of the lower, non-slave holding class to fight the war. The rhetoric used by those people before the war clearly states that slavery was the reason for leaving. I don't consider what he is saying in the pardon to be a reflection of his true beliefs, what we are seeing there is what he believes will earn him the pardon.
Based on the accounts of Ben Dragoo who was also present they were aware of the fact that women and children were present, and there was only an estimated 15 of them before the attack began. The fact that they were aware of this before the attack and Ross ordered the cavalry to circle around behind them before the attack to stop people fleeing is also a concerning matter. They killed 6 to 8 women trying to escape, as described by Charles Goodnight as "The Sergeant and his men fell in behind on the squaws, six or eight in number, who never got across the first bend of the creek. They were so heavily loaded with meat, tent poles, and camp equipage that their horses could not run. We supposed they had about a thousand pounds of buffalo meat in various stages of curing. The sergeant and his men killed ever one of them, nearly in a pile."
Ross built a narrative of the event to bolster his political and military career, fabricating and embellishing the story to present himself as a hero. Then another narrative that he seemed to want to run with regarding the motives of the Confederacy was that since a majority of soldiers did not own slaves it wasn't about slavery. The truth was the confederacy conscripted soldiers to fight for them. There were many people who were unwilling to fight for the Confederacy, and some of them fled north and joined the Union army. They also used tactics like offering citizenship to immigrants who would serve in the army. It still boils down to slavery, and the wealthy and powerful using what resources they had to build up their army of the lower, non-slave holding class to fight the war. The rhetoric used by those people before the war clearly states that slavery was the reason for leaving. I don't consider what he is saying in the pardon to be a reflection of his true beliefs, what we are seeing there is what he believes will earn him the pardon.
Any man who can hitch the length and breadth of the galaxy, rough it, slum it, struggle against terrible odds, win through, and still know where his towel is, is clearly a man to be reckoned with.
I have now read enough and as far as I am concerned Mond needs to go some place else to play. I find it strange that a player has taken upon himself to right some wrong when it is obvious he has only partial facts. Is it that he wants to make a mark, be relevant, etc.
stretch248
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If you are sick you go to the doctor. They studied for years.
Why do atheletes and celebrities with little education in politics and sociology carry such weight with the public in these areas?
Why do atheletes and celebrities with little education in politics and sociology carry such weight with the public in these areas?
Aggie_Swag18 said:
I think you're missing several things about his involvement at Pease River. While it was a response to Nocona's raids through Texas his actions taken after the "battle" were not something to celebrate, which he did. It was only a handful of women left at the camp as the others had already left, not the war party of several hundred they were chasing. Ross' accounts of the event described it as "The fruits of this important victory can never be computed in dollars and cents. The great Comanche confederacy was forever broken, the blow was decisive, their illustrious chief slept with his fathers and with him were most of his doughty warriors." While there are no accounts of Ross killing any of the women once he realized they weren't warriors that I have seen, he seemed view what happened as something of a moment to be proud of and celebrate. Other's who were there recognized it as what it was. H. B Rogers descriptions of the events were as follows: "I was in the Pease River fight, but I am not very proud of it. That was not a battle at all, but just a killing of squaws. One or two bucks and 16 squaws were killed. The Indians were getting ready to leave when we came upon them."
Based on the accounts of Ben Dragoo who was also present they were aware of the fact that women and children were present, and there was only an estimated 15 of them before the attack began. The fact that they were aware of this before the attack and Ross ordered the cavalry to circle around behind them before the attack to stop people fleeing is also a concerning matter. They killed 6 to 8 women trying to escape, as described by Charles Goodnight as "The Sergeant and his men fell in behind on the squaws, six or eight in number, who never got across the first bend of the creek. They were so heavily loaded with meat, tent poles, and camp equipage that their horses could not run. We supposed they had about a thousand pounds of buffalo meat in various stages of curing. The sergeant and his men killed ever one of them, nearly in a pile."
Ross built a narrative of the event to bolster his political and military career, fabricating and embellishing the story to present himself as a hero. Then another narrative that he seemed to want to run with regarding the motives of the Confederacy was that since a majority of soldiers did not own slaves it wasn't about slavery. The truth was the confederacy conscripted soldiers to fight for them. There were many people who were unwilling to fight for the Confederacy, and some of them fled north and joined the Union army. They also used tactics like offering citizenship to immigrants who would serve in the army. It still boils down to slavery, and the wealthy and powerful using what resources they had to build up their army of the lower, non-slave holding class to fight the war. The rhetoric used by those people before the war clearly states that slavery was the reason for leaving. I don't consider what he is saying in the pardon to be a reflection of his true beliefs, what we are seeing there is what he believes will earn him the pardon.
So I'll take these one at a time, starting with Pease River:
There are varying account of Pease River, some fabricated and bolstered, although I have not seen anywhere of the account you say Ross gave himself, I will agree he did start to talk about Pease River when he ran for political office, probably because the recovery of Cynthia Ann made it a famous event.
It seems from what I've found, after tracking Comanches who had been attacking settlers and killed several, a small group of Rangers found the Comaches near Pease River but did not attack because there was nearly 500 of them, and they were vastly outnumbered. At this point Ross was tasked with leading a group of 20 Rangers to go to the settlement and attack the Comanches. There was also roughly 20 federal officers, lead by a different commander, and they met up with a citizen's brigade that was also led by someone else.
However, when they came upon the settlement, nearly all the comanches had left, and 15 remained. The "battle" only lasted 20 minutes after it started. 7 Comanches were killed, 4 women and 3 men. They captured 3, one of whom was a baby, and the other 5 escaped. It is clear Ross fought at least one of the Indians, but didn't seem to have a personal hand in any other death from what I can find. I would like to know more about what the Rangers and Federal officers knew of the settlement before they attacked and who was left there.
Ross did re-tell the story during his campaigns, but didn't talk about it very much at all before hand, other than 1 early account which is probably the most accurate. I find the letter from Quanah Parker very interesting, he also seems to confirm Ross' first account, and his description of Ross' remorse of the event is interesting to me.
I don't believe any of these facts makes Ross a genocidal maniac.
I don't think Ross says that it wasn't about slavery, I think it is clear he understood that was one of the main concerns of the Confederacy, but that it is not why he enlisted with the 6th regiment. I believe his reasons were much more personal to him and him alone. There is nothing that I have found that ever showed Ross supporting slavery by his own words, he never owned slaves, and the only time he talks about slavery is the instances I have found. You can say the pardon was a show, but you're guessing there and there is nothing to suggest he thought otherwise. Ross also wasn't wealthy just before entering the Civil War to my recollection.
This is a great discussion though and what I was hoping to get out of this thread.
Also, going back to the "Negro Killer" thing:
So the Memphis Daily Appeal newspaper was a tabloid newspaper that only existed from 1862-1865 (from what I could see) and the writer reporting the battle that occurred with the Union soldiers called him the "gallant negro killer" and it is the only time I can find anywhere that Sul Ross was ever referred to as such. He never seems to embrace such a nickname. Heck, he probably never even knew about it.
I think I'm most frustrated about the reporting of Sul Ross will be that the media will constantly call him the "Negro Killer" like Shannon Sharpe did today and that incorrect and inaccurate reporting will be connected to this for the foreseeable future.
So the Memphis Daily Appeal newspaper was a tabloid newspaper that only existed from 1862-1865 (from what I could see) and the writer reporting the battle that occurred with the Union soldiers called him the "gallant negro killer" and it is the only time I can find anywhere that Sul Ross was ever referred to as such. He never seems to embrace such a nickname. Heck, he probably never even knew about it.
I think I'm most frustrated about the reporting of Sul Ross will be that the media will constantly call him the "Negro Killer" like Shannon Sharpe did today and that incorrect and inaccurate reporting will be connected to this for the foreseeable future.
Probably not a popular view or opinion on this board ! Mond is speaking from the heart as a black man and a victim of racism. Not as a QB. I'm impressed he is willing to take a stand to speak and tell his truth. Too bad for lack of understanding and compromise. Bottom line Sully in his era was involved in racism no matter how you try to define him. He was caught up in a country that viewed blacks in the south Inferior or less than/slaves
While it is accurate to say Sully was Instrumental and great to the university 100 years ago ...sadly he was also a racist and known as a negro killer. By all means Sully should be acknowledged and celebrated for his accomplishment to A&M. Isn't it ironic before this it's most likely student present and former didn't even know who he was.....besides a statue to place a coin for good luck. Sadly today A&M has made national news and being portrayed as racist . I say .,, Instead of hunkering down why not just move
Sully to a historic area to preserve history and respect the sensitivity of our brothers and sisters. Let's continue as one and continue to make America great!
While it is accurate to say Sully was Instrumental and great to the university 100 years ago ...sadly he was also a racist and known as a negro killer. By all means Sully should be acknowledged and celebrated for his accomplishment to A&M. Isn't it ironic before this it's most likely student present and former didn't even know who he was.....besides a statue to place a coin for good luck. Sadly today A&M has made national news and being portrayed as racist . I say .,, Instead of hunkering down why not just move
Sully to a historic area to preserve history and respect the sensitivity of our brothers and sisters. Let's continue as one and continue to make America great!
I guess we move Washington, Jefferson and all other statues/monuments with ties to racism and slavery to historical sites also? Move half the DC monuments into museums? Never mind all the great things they did for the country or their institutions.
Lincoln and General Sherman, heck 98% of the north thought Blacks were inferior but as a Black man I don't want to tear down their statues. This isn't a statue honoring the confederacy, it's about the man who likely saved A&M. If we betray him we are not worthy of being Aggies. He never owned slaves and 99.7% of his peers would have fought for his state. Did you know Lincoln waited late in the war to free slaves but only the slaves in the south were he had no power. In other states not officially in the south's secession states he did NOT free slaves. Since Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation as a military measure, it didn't apply to border slave states like Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri, all of which were loyal to the Union.
Now that you know history better.....
Now that you know history better.....
Yep. George Custer fought for the Union only because he believed in keeping the country together. However, he believed in the institution of slavery, black inferiority, and the southern way of life. But, hey he fought for the North so it's all good. His monuments/statues are at West Point and Michigan.
Sully stays, Mond goes!!!!!!fightinag said:
Keep Sully......
Get rid of Mond !
Thank you, Sir. I'm glad someone has his fact straight.DrHeadShrink said:
Lincoln and General Sherman, heck 98% of the north thought Blacks were inferior but as a Black man I don't want to tear down their statues. This isn't a statue honoring the confederacy, it's about the man who likely saved A&M. If we betray him we are not worthy of being Aggies. He never owned slaves and 99.7% of his peers would have fought for his state. Did you know Lincoln waited late in the war to free slaves but only the slaves in the south were he had no power. In other states not officially in the south's secession states he did NOT free slaves. Since Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation as a military measure, it didn't apply to border slave states like Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri, all of which were loyal to the Union.
Now that you know history better.....
This. If he does not like playing here, he is a hypocrite and needs to go somewhere else. I would go 0-12 than have him as QB.Sparkie said:Decay said:
The writer posted on Twitter about it. He and Mond are cooperating to increase the visibility of the protest.
It doesn't make Mond any less correct... or any more correct. I really appreciate the athletes speaking up with no fear of being kicked out of school, kicked off the team, killed, etc. This is meaningful and important.
I think Mond is wrong. But I want him to speak out on subjects he thinks is right.
I don't think he should call Sully supporters racists, but that's his problem, not yours. I don't think it's an accurate description of Sully supporters and I won't worry about that label.
Bring positivity to the discussion and you might be surprised what you get.
Being a representative of A&M is a privilege. Mond took to social media to call out a segment of Aggies as racist. He should lose his starting position. A&M deserves better!
Congratulations PikesPeakAg! I too attended as a minority student and never felt any discrimination. Walking past some corps dorms confederate logos hung outside occasionally but I knew it was there because of the past and I got lots of Howdys. My discomfort left and the unity of the school body is phenomenal yet not extremely diverse at the time but I was fully accepted.
Because I'm pro-Sully, ethioarse_ag called me a racist today. I guess I've seen it all now. A racist Aggie doc I am I suppose. Consider the source.
Lincoln did not free any of the slaves from the 4 border states of Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, or Missouri as they were pro-union. He had the power with the Emancipation Proclamation but didn't. He freed the slaves where he had no effect or power to do so - in the South. Lincoln wasn't fond of the Black man. Should we tear down the Lincoln Memorial Mond? Educate yourself people. Take out the rap ear buds and spend some time in Evans, the Big Event, knock that chip off your shoulder - you have a serious education to learn especially how to show respect and honor and be of good character. A natty would be nice but character is more important ethioarse_ag. Mond aplologize, grow, ask forgiveness, get out of your bubble, lose the rap music and do good works - unite, serve, tutor, and humble yourself. Become a proud man. Treat women with respect and learn from elders. You won't be a sell out you'll be a better man. An independent thinker.
Ross, unlike Washington, Jefferson, and some free Blacks in Texas did NOT own slaves. Ross did not! He started Prairie View, got services for mental health and the Blacks who were blind, and served his state of Texas then SAVED Texas A&M.
It is not a confederate statue. No uniform on. It was for his service to the school.
If there was a statue of you on campus would you have on diapers? No! You moved on! You evolved! Ross left the army when he was 26. Without his efforts this website wouldn't exist so I won't betray our savior. According to ethioarese_ag I'm a racist for honoring Sully. Ok. This Uncle Tom honors Sully. Tell your TSU classmates this coon is a sell out. This minority doctor will still remain as proud as ever a proud Aggie and saw Howdy and pass on the Aggie love.
Gig 'em!
Because I'm pro-Sully, ethioarse_ag called me a racist today. I guess I've seen it all now. A racist Aggie doc I am I suppose. Consider the source.
Lincoln did not free any of the slaves from the 4 border states of Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, or Missouri as they were pro-union. He had the power with the Emancipation Proclamation but didn't. He freed the slaves where he had no effect or power to do so - in the South. Lincoln wasn't fond of the Black man. Should we tear down the Lincoln Memorial Mond? Educate yourself people. Take out the rap ear buds and spend some time in Evans, the Big Event, knock that chip off your shoulder - you have a serious education to learn especially how to show respect and honor and be of good character. A natty would be nice but character is more important ethioarse_ag. Mond aplologize, grow, ask forgiveness, get out of your bubble, lose the rap music and do good works - unite, serve, tutor, and humble yourself. Become a proud man. Treat women with respect and learn from elders. You won't be a sell out you'll be a better man. An independent thinker.
Ross, unlike Washington, Jefferson, and some free Blacks in Texas did NOT own slaves. Ross did not! He started Prairie View, got services for mental health and the Blacks who were blind, and served his state of Texas then SAVED Texas A&M.
It is not a confederate statue. No uniform on. It was for his service to the school.
If there was a statue of you on campus would you have on diapers? No! You moved on! You evolved! Ross left the army when he was 26. Without his efforts this website wouldn't exist so I won't betray our savior. According to ethioarese_ag I'm a racist for honoring Sully. Ok. This Uncle Tom honors Sully. Tell your TSU classmates this coon is a sell out. This minority doctor will still remain as proud as ever a proud Aggie and saw Howdy and pass on the Aggie love.
Gig 'em!
Why do I think there is some girl right behind Mond pouring poison in his Ear?
I talk to him when I am lonesome like; and I am sure he understands. When he looks at me so attentively, and gently licks my hands; then he rubs his nose on my tailored clothes, but I never say naught thereat. For the good Lord knows I can buy more clothes, but never a friend like that. ~W. Dayton Wedgefarth
gpaolini said:
Probably not a popular view or opinion on this board ! Mond is speaking from the heart as a black man and a victim of racism. Not as a QB. I'm impressed he is willing to take a stand to speak and tell his truth. Too bad for lack of understanding and compromise. Bottom line Sully in his era was involved in racism no matter how you try to define him. He was caught up in a country that viewed blacks in the south Inferior or less than/slaves
While it is accurate to say Sully was Instrumental and great to the university 100 years ago ...sadly he was also a racist and known as a negro killer. By all means Sully should be acknowledged and celebrated for his accomplishment to A&M. Isn't it ironic before this it's most likely student present and former didn't even know who he was.....besides a statue to place a coin for good luck. Sadly today A&M has made national news and being portrayed as racist . I say .,, Instead of hunkering down why not just move
Sully to a historic area to preserve history and respect the sensitivity of our brothers and sisters. Let's continue as one and continue to make America great!
I address the negro killer thing in the post right above yours, and that's exactly the problem. The inaccuracy is putting the Universiry in a bad light because information that is not true is being pushed as the narrative, and that's what is bothering me the most.
Has QB1 got an activist girlfriend like Kap?
Kozmozag said:
Has QB1 got an activist girlfriend like Kap?
I believe it's a boyfriend that goes by thesadhistorian on Twitter. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
You saying he gots the gays?
THE_CHOSEN_ONE said:Kozmozag said:
Has QB1 got an activist girlfriend like Kap?
I believe it's a boyfriend that goes by thesadhistorian on Twitter. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
The sad historian that cherry picks history?
The sad historian who is too lazy to actually look up all the original reference material instead of spewing what some History book or Professor says?
I talk to him when I am lonesome like; and I am sure he understands. When he looks at me so attentively, and gently licks my hands; then he rubs his nose on my tailored clothes, but I never say naught thereat. For the good Lord knows I can buy more clothes, but never a friend like that. ~W. Dayton Wedgefarth
This guy???
https://twitter.com/thesadhistorian?s=20
Here is one of the sad historians friends that he responds to.
https://twitter.com/dylandylanknapp?s=20
https://twitter.com/thesadhistorian?s=20
Here is one of the sad historians friends that he responds to.
https://twitter.com/dylandylanknapp?s=20
I talk to him when I am lonesome like; and I am sure he understands. When he looks at me so attentively, and gently licks my hands; then he rubs his nose on my tailored clothes, but I never say naught thereat. For the good Lord knows I can buy more clothes, but never a friend like that. ~W. Dayton Wedgefarth
Sad Historian is also a former Red Pot, so I respect his research and believe he is looking at this from a love for Texas A&M, in fact his research is what ignited my own, but I don't agree with his conclusion. However, and I am free to admit this, he and I are seeing through very different lenses.
It's accurate. He did kill black people as a General for the CSA. Are you saying he did not?Nonregdrummer09 said:gpaolini said:
Probably not a popular view or opinion on this board ! Mond is speaking from the heart as a black man and a victim of racism. Not as a QB. I'm impressed he is willing to take a stand to speak and tell his truth. Too bad for lack of understanding and compromise. Bottom line Sully in his era was involved in racism no matter how you try to define him. He was caught up in a country that viewed blacks in the south Inferior or less than/slaves
While it is accurate to say Sully was Instrumental and great to the university 100 years ago ...sadly he was also a racist and known as a negro killer. By all means Sully should be acknowledged and celebrated for his accomplishment to A&M. Isn't it ironic before this it's most likely student present and former didn't even know who he was.....besides a statue to place a coin for good luck. Sadly today A&M has made national news and being portrayed as racist . I say .,, Instead of hunkering down why not just move
Sully to a historic area to preserve history and respect the sensitivity of our brothers and sisters. Let's continue as one and continue to make America great!
I address the negro killer thing in the post right above yours, and that's exactly the problem. The inaccuracy is putting the Universiry in a bad light because information that is not true is being pushed as the narrative, and that's what is bothering me the most.
PabloSerna said:It's accurate. He did kill black people as a General for the CSA. Are you saying he did not?Nonregdrummer09 said:gpaolini said:
Probably not a popular view or opinion on this board ! Mond is speaking from the heart as a black man and a victim of racism. Not as a QB. I'm impressed he is willing to take a stand to speak and tell his truth. Too bad for lack of understanding and compromise. Bottom line Sully in his era was involved in racism no matter how you try to define him. He was caught up in a country that viewed blacks in the south Inferior or less than/slaves
While it is accurate to say Sully was Instrumental and great to the university 100 years ago ...sadly he was also a racist and known as a negro killer. By all means Sully should be acknowledged and celebrated for his accomplishment to A&M. Isn't it ironic before this it's most likely student present and former didn't even know who he was.....besides a statue to place a coin for good luck. Sadly today A&M has made national news and being portrayed as racist . I say .,, Instead of hunkering down why not just move
Sully to a historic area to preserve history and respect the sensitivity of our brothers and sisters. Let's continue as one and continue to make America great!
I address the negro killer thing in the post right above yours, and that's exactly the problem. The inaccuracy is putting the Universiry in a bad light because information that is not true is being pushed as the narrative, and that's what is bothering me the most.
If you're referring to the black Union soldiers outside of Yazoo City then yes, he did, I address this in detail in the OP, however I'm not talking about whether he did or did not kill black soldiers during a battle in the Civil War, I'm talking about the insinuation that he was widely known as the "negro killer" as if it was some kind of moniker or nickname for him, and that is absolutely false.
Man it is painfully obvious what Pablo is trying to do. He doesn't want to say it was in wartime and he doesn't want to say it was a union outfit.
I talk to him when I am lonesome like; and I am sure he understands. When he looks at me so attentively, and gently licks my hands; then he rubs his nose on my tailored clothes, but I never say naught thereat. For the good Lord knows I can buy more clothes, but never a friend like that. ~W. Dayton Wedgefarth
DrHeadShrink, very thoughtful and extremely well written post. If I'm ever fortunate enough to cross paths with you, the drinks are on me!
Oh man what an oppressed life of attending a high school with 72k tuition price. The dude has had and has a more privileged life than 99.9% of everyone on this board.gpaolini said:
Probably not a popular view or opinion on this board ! Mond is speaking from the heart as a black man and a victim of racism. Not as a QB. I'm impressed he is willing to take a stand to speak and tell his truth. Too bad for lack of understanding and compromise. Bottom line Sully in his era was involved in racism no matter how you try to define him. He was caught up in a country that viewed blacks in the south Inferior or less than/slaves
While it is accurate to say Sully was Instrumental and great to the university 100 years ago ...sadly he was also a racist and known as a negro killer. By all means Sully should be acknowledged and celebrated for his accomplishment to A&M. Isn't it ironic before this it's most likely student present and former didn't even know who he was.....besides a statue to place a coin for good luck. Sadly today A&M has made national news and being portrayed as racist . I say .,, Instead of hunkering down why not just move
Sully to a historic area to preserve history and respect the sensitivity of our brothers and sisters. Let's continue as one and continue to make America great!
Also, maybe try to read the discussion before parroting blatant quarter truths about "known as a negro killer."
He reads twitter and assumes it's gospelNonregdrummer09 said:
Also, no trashing Mond please, he is doing what he believes is right based on what he has read, I just believe he is missing important points.
Mainly because that is obvious? I reference Ross as a CSA General, but maybe, just maybe THAT is what you and others would like to not focus on - instead its about all the good he did later on.RetiredpostalMarine said:
Man it is painfully obvious what Pablo is trying to do. He doesn't want to say it was in wartime and he doesn't want to say it was a union outfit.
Its just a statute right? Can we agree that even if we move the statue to a nice building honoring TAMU past and present, it will not change history - but it can change the future.
However - as it is quite clear to many - Ross's involvement as a wartime General both as a Texas Ranger and CSA General - are the issue. Should this aspect of his life be overlooked as you suggest? Maybe it is uncomfortable for white people to discuss the history of Texas and the South. I can only imagine.
For me, it can stay or it can go. If it really bothers my brother, then let's move it.
+Pablo
What is wrong with him being a Texas Ranger and CSA general?
He fought Comanches as a Ranger, is your contention that the Rangers shouldn't have fought the Comanches?
As far as fighting for the Confederacy, it's not like he had a choice. Every man of fighting age had to fight, those who refused were killed. He joined as private, but was such a good warrior/leader that he quickly rose to the rank of general by the time he was 25. Is it a problem that he excelled at being a soldier, is that something he should be faulted for?
He fought Comanches as a Ranger, is your contention that the Rangers shouldn't have fought the Comanches?
As far as fighting for the Confederacy, it's not like he had a choice. Every man of fighting age had to fight, those who refused were killed. He joined as private, but was such a good warrior/leader that he quickly rose to the rank of general by the time he was 25. Is it a problem that he excelled at being a soldier, is that something he should be faulted for?
PabloSerna said:Mainly because that is obvious? I reference Ross as a CSA General, but maybe, just maybe THAT is what you and others would like to not focus on - instead its about all the good he did later on.RetiredpostalMarine said:
Man it is painfully obvious what Pablo is trying to do. He doesn't want to say it was in wartime and he doesn't want to say it was a union outfit.
Its just a statute right? Can we agree that even if we move the statue to a nice building honoring TAMU past and present, it will not change history - but it can change the future.
However - as it is quite clear to many - Ross's involvement as a wartime General both as a Texas Ranger and CSA General - are the issue. Should this aspect of his life be overlooked as you suggest? Maybe it is uncomfortable for white people to discuss the history of Texas and the South. I can only imagine.
For me, it can stay or it can go. If it really bothers my brother, then let's move it.
+Pablo
He was pardoned for his crimes fighting in the confederacy. The North decided this was a fair compromise for many of the soldiers that fought against them because they then punished the South economically. These effects on the south's economy were felt for almost 100 years after.
I think you guys making the argument that the statue is somehow honoring the confederacy are way off base here. A military rank is always a title, much like a doctor or president, even if you don't serve in those institutions anymore. He achieved the rank of general, so of course with us being a military school, he was called a general.
And it doesn't change the fact that the statue has nothing to do with his contributions to the confederacy, only to what he did for our university.
"Negro killer", really? He killed two opposing soldiers from a unit that executed two prisoners captured from Ross' forces. It had nothing to do with whether they were black, white, green or orange. Right or not it was in response to those forces executing two of his men that were held as prisoners.
Did you read the letter Ross wrote to the opposing officer complaining about the execution of his men and asking whether more of his men could expect to receive the same fate if they were captured by that group?
Labels are too easily imposed by others whether it is the anti-Sully protestor who called the young black man a "coon" for supporting the statue (you can find the video on another thread) or a writer casting "Negro killer" on Ross. Many of us have been labeled during the course of our lives. That does not make it right, nor does it define us.
Did you read the letter Ross wrote to the opposing officer complaining about the execution of his men and asking whether more of his men could expect to receive the same fate if they were captured by that group?
Labels are too easily imposed by others whether it is the anti-Sully protestor who called the young black man a "coon" for supporting the statue (you can find the video on another thread) or a writer casting "Negro killer" on Ross. Many of us have been labeled during the course of our lives. That does not make it right, nor does it define us.
Since you asked... visit this site for a fuller understanding.THE_CHOSEN_ONE said:
What is wrong with him being a Texas Ranger and CSA general?
He fought Comanches as a Ranger, is your contention that the Rangers shouldn't have fought the Comanches?
As far as fighting for the Confederacy, it's not like he had a choice. Every man of fighting age had to fight, those who refused were killed. He joined as private, but was such a good warrior/leader that he quickly rose to the rank of general by the time he was 25. Is it a problem that he excelled at being a soldier, is that something he should be faulted for?
Look - war was/is hell. He did what he did.
I still cannot get one of you to answer my question - if it's just a statue, what's it to you to have it relocated to a space dedicated to TAMU history?
These feelings about systemic racism and inequality have been around for as long as I can remember. This statue and others commemorating the life of men (mostly men) that had a hand in the early part of Texas history serve as a reminder to many, I will put my self in that group, that an era came to a violent end for a people and a new one began. When you can fully understand that, and I contend that for many Anglo-Americans it is impossible, then maybe you can see what we see when we pass these monuments.
I realize many here are not racist - just not sympathetic to a very real issue at TAMU.
+pablo
"mostly men." Tipped your ideological hand a bit here lol.PabloSerna said:Since you asked... visit this site for a fuller understanding.THE_CHOSEN_ONE said:
What is wrong with him being a Texas Ranger and CSA general?
He fought Comanches as a Ranger, is your contention that the Rangers shouldn't have fought the Comanches?
As far as fighting for the Confederacy, it's not like he had a choice. Every man of fighting age had to fight, those who refused were killed. He joined as private, but was such a good warrior/leader that he quickly rose to the rank of general by the time he was 25. Is it a problem that he excelled at being a soldier, is that something he should be faulted for?
Look - war was/is hell. He did what he did.
I still cannot get one of you to answer my question - if it's just a statue, what's it to you to have it relocated to a space dedicated to TAMU history?
These feelings about systemic racism and inequality have been around for as long as I can remember. This statue and others commemorating the life of men (mostly men) that had a hand in the early part of Texas history serve as a reminder to many, I will put my self in that group, that an era came to a violent end for a people and a new one began. When you can fully understand that, and I contend that for many Anglo-Americans it is impossible, then maybe you can see what we see when we pass these monuments.
I realize many here are not racist - just not sympathetic to a very real issue at TAMU.
+pablo
"When you can fully understand that, and I contend that for many Anglo-Americans it is impossible, then maybe you can see what we see when we pass these monuments."
Hmm implying all white people are Anglo, your name is Pablo, and you are making broad statements about a racial catagory. Interesting details here. Very interesting.
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