I guess you missed the "at this level, with good athletes" part of the title.

And to those of you saying that UH lost because of all the picks Keenum threw, I did not even allude to the final score NOR the Houston offense at all. Sumlin doesn't even really coach the defense. It isn't his primary responsibility...yet, here on full display is a total lack of discipline by the UH defense. It is funny that our defense seems to suffer the same fate. Two defenses with different players with different schemes with different coaches. Style over substance is incompatible with the fundamental nature of football.

I like Sumlin. Part of me thinks that we should just give the guy 20 years and see what happens. The other part of me sees the same problems occurring in year 6 that were there in year 1 (and before at Houston). That makes me believe that there isn't a whole lot of learning going on.

Taint the X's and O's, its the Jimmys and Joes...

Examples of lack of discipline:

CrottyKid said:

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I guess you missed the "at this level, with good athletes" part of the title.

And to those of you saying that UH lost because of all the picks Keenum threw, I did not even allude to the final score NOR the Houston offense at all. Sumlin doesn't even really coach the defense. It isn't his primary responsibility...yet, here on full display is a total lack of discipline by the UH defense. It is funny that our defense seems to suffer the same fate. Two defenses with different players with different schemes with different coaches. Style over substance is incompatible with the fundamental nature of football.

I like Sumlin. Part of me thinks that we should just give the guy 20 years and see what happens. The other part of me sees the same problems occurring in year 6 that were there in year 1 (and before at Houston). That makes me believe that there isn't a whole lot of learning going on.

---

not being able to defend the triple option isn't proof of poor discipline.

CajunAg97 said:

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Examples of lack of discipline:

---

Better tell Bama, Tennessee, Gerogia, etc to stop with there sideline antics as well.

The walk-on WR has been addressed about a million times already.

You tell me then, what causes a team to constantly blow assignments against the triple option? Be sure to include how that in no way is related to discipline.

Bob15 said:

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A Sumlin-led team with no discipline. You don't say.

---

They knew it was coming.

Had weeks to practice.

No dice.

CrottyKid said:

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I guess you missed the "at this level, with good athletes" part of the title.

And to those of you saying that UH lost because of all the picks Keenum threw, I did not even allude to the final score NOR the Houston offense at all. Sumlin doesn't even really coach the defense. It isn't his primary responsibility...yet, here on full display is a total lack of discipline by the UH defense. It is funny that our defense seems to suffer the same fate. Two defenses with different players with different schemes with different coaches. Style over substance is incompatible with the fundamental nature of football.

I like Sumlin. Part of me thinks that we should just give the guy 20 years and see what happens. The other part of me sees the same problems occurring in year 6 that were there in year 1 (and before at Houston). That makes me believe that there isn't a whole lot of learning going on.

---

You think we should be "LEARNING" at the $5MM level, being in the SEC, and in a $500 MM dollar stadium?

aggiedent said:

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Quote:

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At this point, I think the vocal majority here just absolutely HATE Sumlin. Every GD thing is his fault and any success is someone else's doing. He is a no win coach in your eyes.

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That just about sums it up. If he won the NC, he'd catch hell for holding the trophy wrong.

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That's a BIG if.

Ragoo said:

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GoodOldAgs said:

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Ragoo said:

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GoodOldAgs said:

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Ragoo said:

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CrazyDayDuck said:

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Ragoo said:

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Keenum tossed 6 INTs in that game. i assume that is all Sumlin's fault.

At this point, I think the vocal majority here just absolutely HATE Sumlin. Every GD thing is his fault and any success is someone else's doing. He is a no win coach in your eyes.

---

I agree.

According to the Massey Ratings, we are the 46th best team in college football.

What more could Ags want?

https://www.masseyratings.com/cf/compare.htm

---

i am not sure what Massey ratings have to do with your obvious hatred for Sumlin assuming you believe he coaches an undisciplined team like the OP was alluding to.

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Do you know Sumlin personally?

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no, waiting for the hook now....

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Was an honest question. You are a very stout defender of him.

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not so much a defender of Sumlin's, I am against wild and reckless accusations. often times blatantly false or malicious in intent.

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Pointing out a composite of objective computer rankings is now a "wild and reckless accusation" according to the Sumlin apologists?

Wow.

CrazyDayDuck said:

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Ragoo said:

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GoodOldAgs said:

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Ragoo said:

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GoodOldAgs said:

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Ragoo said:

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CrazyDayDuck said:

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Ragoo said:

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Keenum tossed 6 INTs in that game. i assume that is all Sumlin's fault.

At this point, I think the vocal majority here just absolutely HATE Sumlin. Every GD thing is his fault and any success is someone else's doing. He is a no win coach in your eyes.

---

I agree.

According to the Massey Ratings, we are the 46th best team in college football.

What more could Ags want?

https://www.masseyratings.com/cf/compare.htm

---

i am not sure what Massey ratings have to do with your obvious hatred for Sumlin assuming you believe he coaches an undisciplined team like the OP was alluding to.

---

Do you know Sumlin personally?

---

no, waiting for the hook now....

---

Was an honest question. You are a very stout defender of him.

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not so much a defender of Sumlin's, I am against wild and reckless accusations. often times blatantly false or malicious in intent.

---

Pointing out a composite of objective computer rankings is now a "wild and reckless accusation" according to the Sumlin apologists?

Wow.

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what does the massey ranking have to do with the premise of this thread? are you just trolling?

Ragoo said:

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Keenum tossed 6 INTs in that game. i assume that is all Sumlin's fault.

At this point, I think the vocal majority here just absolutely HATE Sumlin. Every GD thing is his fault and any success is someone else's doing. He is a no win coach in your eyes.

---

I don't think that people hate Sumlin. I just think that the UCLA game convinced the remaining folks that were still holding out hope that Sumlin could get us where we want to go that he can't. And at $5 million a year, it's time for him to go.

Emilio Fantastico said:

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Ragoo said:

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Keenum tossed 6 INTs in that game. i assume that is all Sumlin's fault.

At this point, I think the vocal majority here just absolutely HATE Sumlin. Every GD thing is his fault and any success is someone else's doing. He is a no win coach in your eyes.

---

I don't think that people hate Sumlin. I just think that the UCLA game convinced the remaining folks that were still holding out hope that Sumlin could get us where we want to go that he can't. And at $5 million a year, it's time for him to go.

---

jealousy then maybe

And I'm sick of it.

Jealousy? Hell yeah. Everyone on this board wishes they were in a guaranteed contract for $5 million regardless of how obviously terrible they are at the job.

I literally cannot believe you defend such poor coaching. But every thread you jump on and defend him.

It is year 6 and we have - yet again - another new young QB. If Starkel weren't injured we would have - yet again - another QB controversy. He has driven away almost as many Top QBs as he has recruited. With the exception of Manziel, we have not had a solid QB starter play 2 years in a row. Think about that. And Manziel left after his Soph year. Sumlin's clock management of UCLA was so bad it looked intentional.

Yet here you are continuing to defend him.

He is a millionaire for coaching a game. He doesn't need you to defend him. He is his own man and should be held accountable. This board has knee jerk reactions sometimes, BUT this is not one of those times. The UCLA game convinced many of us that he is not the guy.

I admire your blind loyalty, but seriously? Either you are Sumlin or you are a sip. Because no other explanation makes sense.

Rebel Yell said:

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halfastros81 said:

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Paying $5Mm per yr is a top ten salary. Program ranking might be # 30 over the past 4+ yrs and is not trending up. That's a big disconnect imo.

---

Exactly. Some people on this board pipe up with "What does his salary have to do with anything?" Even calling it a red herring.

But here are the Top 6 salaries in College Football:

Saban $11 million - #1 Alabama
Harbaugh $9 million - #8 Michigan
Meyer $6 million - #10 Ohio State
Fisher $5.2 million - #12 Florida State
Herman $5.2 million - UNRANKED Texas (year 1)
Sumlin $5 million - UNRANKED Texas A&M (year 6)

Other than Herman in his first year, Sumlin stands out like a sore thumb.

Out of 128 schools, we pay more than 122 of them and we can't crack the Top 25 in Year 6???

That is why the money matters.

We are paying to win and we aren't winning.

---

This is actually a valid reason to call for change. The results have not been enough. But to pull up a 10 year-old video of a game vs a triple option team (how many teams look bad every year vs Georgia Tech) as evidence of a habitual lack of discipline is reaching at best.

Edit for spelling

vander54 said:

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Ragoo said:

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vander54 said:

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If you want to see if a team is disciplined you look at penalties.

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thru 3 games we have been penalized only 12 times. 19th fewest. Only 8 teams better who have played in 3 games.

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Yep and we are #1 in the SEC.

http://www.cfbstats.com/2017/leader/911/team/offense/split01/category14/sort01.html

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Will check back in 6 weeks.....

Rebel Yell said:

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halfastros81 said:

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Paying $5Mm per yr is a top ten salary. Program ranking might be # 30 over the past 4+ yrs and is not trending up. That's a big disconnect imo.

---

Exactly. Some people on this board pipe up with "What does his salary have to do with anything?" Even calling it a red herring.

But here are the Top 6 salaries in College Football:

Saban $11 million - #1 Alabama
Harbaugh $9 million - #8 Michigan
Meyer $6 million - #10 Ohio State
Fisher $5.2 million - #12 Florida State
Herman $5.2 million - UNRANKED Texas (year 1)
Sumlin $5 million - UNRANKED Texas A&M (year 6)

Other than Herman in his first year, Sumlin stands out like a sore thumb.

Out of 128 schools, we pay more than 122 of them and we can't crack the Top 25 in Year 6???

That is why the money matters.

We are paying to win and we aren't winning.

---

what do the next 14 coaches get paid? Would you be willing to pay Sumlin that 20th salary?

Ragoo said:

---

Rebel Yell said:

---

halfastros81 said:

---

Paying $5Mm per yr is a top ten salary. Program ranking might be # 30 over the past 4+ yrs and is not trending up. That's a big disconnect imo.

---

Exactly. Some people on this board pipe up with "What does his salary have to do with anything?" Even calling it a red herring.

But here are the Top 6 salaries in College Football:

Saban $11 million - #1 Alabama
Harbaugh $9 million - #8 Michigan
Meyer $6 million - #10 Ohio State
Fisher $5.2 million - #12 Florida State
Herman $5.2 million - UNRANKED Texas (year 1)
Sumlin $5 million - UNRANKED Texas A&M (year 6)

Other than Herman in his first year, Sumlin stands out like a sore thumb.

Out of 128 schools, we pay more than 122 of them and we can't crack the Top 25 in Year 6???

That is why the money matters.

We are paying to win and we aren't winning.

---

what do the next 14 coaches get paid? Would you be willing to pay Sumlin that 20th salary?

---

Saban, Harbaugh, Meyer, and Fisher are arguably the best coaches in the game. That is the company he is in. Therefore, that is who he will be compared too.

If we dropped to the company of the 20th highest paid coach, he would also suffer by comparison. All are performing as expected . . . Top 25 pay = Top 25 ranking.

18.) Patterson $4 million - #16 TCU
19.) Richt $4 million - #14 Miami
20.) Petrino $3.9 million - #19 Louisville
21.) Gundy $3.7 million - #6 Oklahoma State
22.) Smart $3.7 million - #11 Georgia

Without Manziel performing miracles, Sumlin is not a Top 25 coach. We finished unranked 2014, 2015, 2016 and its early but 2017 doesn't look good for us.

His performance is not in line with his compensation.

And since you keep bringing this up, if he were paid drastically less, the problem would still exist. I would still want him gone. There would still be frustration and anger, but the frustration would be aimed at the administration to pay for a big time coach. Regardless of how terrible the contract was structured, the administration has been willing to pay top dollars for a coach. He is just not the right coach.

Quote:

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Every GD thing is his fault

---

Comments like this are just stupid. NO ONE thinks EVERYTHING is his fault. What the majority of us think is that he shoulders the blame for a LOT of things and is paid very well to run a program very well and get more than mediocre results.

You can't very well argue against someone's point if you don't first understand that point. This simple concept seems to be lost on WAY too many on this forum. You are BEHIND in an argument if you can't accurately state what you're arguing against; you've LOST the argument when you go into an emotional tizzy because you DISLIKE the point the other person is trying to make and take that dislike far enough to argue a point no one asserted. You, sir, fall into the latter.

Quote:

---

how many teams look bad every year vs Georgia Tech

---

Not very many. They've only won 4 games by 20+ in the last 2 years. We've won 7.

We should run the triple option.

Gladiator-91 said:

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If it was all about discipline then west point and Annapolis would win the NC every year.

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If they had our talent, yeah, probably.

Rebel Yell said:

---

halfastros81 said:

---

Paying $5Mm per yr is a top ten salary. Program ranking might be # 30 over the past 4+ yrs and is not trending up. That's a big disconnect imo.

---

Exactly. Some people on this board pipe up with "What does his salary have to do with anything?" Even calling it a red herring.

But here are the Top 6 salaries in College Football:

Saban $11 million - #1 Alabama
Harbaugh $9 million - #8 Michigan
Meyer $6 million - #10 Ohio State
Fisher $5.2 million - #12 Florida State
Herman $5.2 million - UNRANKED Texas (year 1)
Sumlin $5 million - UNRANKED Texas A&M (year 6)

Other than Herman in his first year, Sumlin stands out like a sore thumb.

Out of 128 schools, we pay more than 122 of them and we can't crack the Top 25 in Year 6???

That is why the money matters.

We are paying to win and we aren't winning.

---

How many of the other coaches are playing without or with injured starting and backup qb's and rb's?

Troutslime said:

---

Rebel Yell said:

---

halfastros81 said:

---

Paying $5Mm per yr is a top ten salary. Program ranking might be # 30 over the past 4+ yrs and is not trending up. That's a big disconnect imo.

---

Exactly. Some people on this board pipe up with "What does his salary have to do with anything?" Even calling it a red herring.

But here are the Top 6 salaries in College Football:

Saban $11 million - #1 Alabama
Harbaugh $9 million - #8 Michigan
Meyer $6 million - #10 Ohio State
Fisher $5.2 million - #12 Florida State
Herman $5.2 million - UNRANKED Texas (year 1)
Sumlin $5 million - UNRANKED Texas A&M (year 6)

Other than Herman in his first year, Sumlin stands out like a sore thumb.

Out of 128 schools, we pay more than 122 of them and we can't crack the Top 25 in Year 6???

That is why the money matters.

We are paying to win and we aren't winning.

---

How many of the other coaches are playing without or with injured starting and backup qb's and rb's?

---

Oh my God. Just stop.

Injuries are unfortunate and most people understand when that happens the team suffers. If this were an isolated year this might be a valid point. But this is Year 6 and the results are becoming predictable.

We did not lose UCLA because of injuries.
We did not struggle against Louisiana because of injuries.

And the great coaches overcome adversity. In 2013 Meyer won the National Championship with his 3rd String QB.

What else you got?

Are you going to answer the question or just scream and deflect?

C'mon now.

1) The problem is not just this year. If it were I wouldn't be complaining. The problem is the obvious 5 yr trend.

2) The entire QB situation is primarily Sumlin's doing. Had he handled things any better than terribly he'd have Kyle Allen starting and the Starkel's and Mond's and Hubenak's would be hoping to get some garbage time reps.

3) Running back is one area where we do have some depth.

4) Every team has injuries. Some years worse than others but HFC's that get paid Top Ten salaries are expected to have built some depth after 5 yrs.

Rebel Yell said:

---

Troutslime said:

---

Rebel Yell said:

---

halfastros81 said:

---

Paying $5Mm per yr is a top ten salary. Program ranking might be # 30 over the past 4+ yrs and is not trending up. That's a big disconnect imo.

---

Exactly. Some people on this board pipe up with "What does his salary have to do with anything?" Even calling it a red herring.

But here are the Top 6 salaries in College Football:

Saban $11 million - #1 Alabama
Harbaugh $9 million - #8 Michigan
Meyer $6 million - #10 Ohio State
Fisher $5.2 million - #12 Florida State
Herman $5.2 million - UNRANKED Texas (year 1)
Sumlin $5 million - UNRANKED Texas A&M (year 6)

Other than Herman in his first year, Sumlin stands out like a sore thumb.

Out of 128 schools, we pay more than 122 of them and we can't crack the Top 25 in Year 6???

That is why the money matters.

We are paying to win and we aren't winning.

---

How many of the other coaches are playing without or with injured starting and backup qb's and rb's?

---

Oh my God. Just stop.

Injuries are unfortunate and most people understand when that happens the team suffers. If this were an isolated year this might be a valid point. But this is Year 6 and the results are becoming predictable.

We did not lose UCLA because of injuries.
We did not struggle against Louisiana because of injuries.

And the great coaches overcome adversity. In 2013 Meyer won the National Championship with his 3rd String QB.

What else you got?

---

Not asking to dtstract from the point you made, but wasn't Tom Herman the OC for Meyer in 2014?

Ragoo said:

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Keenum tossed 6 INTs in that game. i assume that is all Sumlin's fault.

At this point, I think the vocal majority here just absolutely HATE Sumlin. Every GD thing is his fault and any success is someone else's doing. He is a no win coach in your eyes.

---

No, he's an 8 win coach in our eyes and we expect better.

With the facilities we have, we expect better.

With the support we have, we expect better.

With the coaching salaries we pay, we expect better.

And yes, when you're the HC of a college football team, the buck stops with you. It's all your fault.

DrEvazanPhD said:

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Also, when properly executed, the triple option is an absolute work of art.

---

Everybody says it doesn't work anymore because everyone is too fast now. That's a load of crap. Like OP said, discipline can make anything work in football. If we played Air Force we would get slaughtered. The ONLY reason the service academies can't compete with the likes of Alabama is talent. At some point you will get to the tipping point. But teams like us, they would run all over us.

Rebel Yell laying down the truth!

91AggieLawyer said:

---

Quote:

---

Every GD thing is his fault

---

Comments like this are just stupid. NO ONE thinks EVERYTHING is his fault. What the majority of us think is that he shoulders the blame for a LOT of things and is paid very well to run a program very well and get more than mediocre results.

You can't very well argue against someone's point if you don't first understand that point. This simple concept seems to be lost on WAY too many on this forum. You are BEHIND in an argument if you can't accurately state what you're arguing against; you've LOST the argument when you go into an emotional tizzy because you DISLIKE the point the other person is trying to make and take that dislike far enough to argue a point no one asserted. You, sir, fall into the latter.

---

Bold No. 1 - Yeah, read some of the threads on here. There are a lot of folks that do think every single thing is Sumlin's fault.

Bold No. 2 - Yeah, read some of the threads here. It's a two way street, there are plenty that are so far gone that pointing out anything positive gets immediately spun into "it wasn't Sumlin or our staff, it was the other team sucking".

Both extremes, and there are a lot more fire Sumlin extremes, fall into the same category you defined above.

Rebel Yell said:

---

Ragoo said:

---

Rebel Yell said:

---

halfastros81 said:

---

Paying $5Mm per yr is a top ten salary. Program ranking might be # 30 over the past 4+ yrs and is not trending up. That's a big disconnect imo.

---

Exactly. Some people on this board pipe up with "What does his salary have to do with anything?" Even calling it a red herring.

But here are the Top 6 salaries in College Football:

Saban $11 million - #1 Alabama
Harbaugh $9 million - #8 Michigan
Meyer $6 million - #10 Ohio State
Fisher $5.2 million - #12 Florida State
Herman $5.2 million - UNRANKED Texas (year 1)
Sumlin $5 million - UNRANKED Texas A&M (year 6)

Other than Herman in his first year, Sumlin stands out like a sore thumb.

Out of 128 schools, we pay more than 122 of them and we can't crack the Top 25 in Year 6???

That is why the money matters.

We are paying to win and we aren't winning.

---

what do the next 14 coaches get paid? Would you be willing to pay Sumlin that 20th salary?

---

Saban, Harbaugh, Meyer, and Fisher are arguably the best coaches in the game. That is the company he is in. Therefore, that is who he will be compared too.

If we dropped to the company of the 20th highest paid coach, he would also suffer by comparison. All are performing as expected . . . Top 25 pay = Top 25 ranking.

18.) Patterson $4 million - #16 TCU
19.) Richt $4 million - #14 Miami
20.) Petrino $3.9 million - #19 Louisville
21.) Gundy $3.7 million - #6 Oklahoma State
22.) Smart $3.7 million - #11 Georgia

Without Manziel performing miracles, Sumlin is not a Top 25 coach. We finished unranked 2014, 2015, 2016 and its early but 2017 doesn't look good for us.

His performance is not in line with his compensation.

And since you keep bringing this up, if he were paid drastically less, the problem would still exist. I would still want him gone. There would still be frustration and anger, but the frustration would be aimed at the administration to pay for a big time coach. Regardless of how terrible the contract was structured, the administration has been willing to pay top dollars for a coach. He is just not the right coach.

---

So, by your own admission, If Sumlin were paid more in line with his performance as a head coach you would still want him fired. That by default makes any conversation that includes salary a red herring. Why can't you just say, he is under performing the expectations as the head coach at Texas A&M and therefore should be released from his duties?

91AggieLawyer said:

---

Quote:

---

Every GD thing is his fault

---

Comments like this are just stupid. NO ONE thinks EVERYTHING is his fault. What the majority of us think is that he shoulders the blame for a LOT of things and is paid very well to run a program very well and get more than mediocre results.

You can't very well argue against someone's point if you don't first understand that point. This simple concept seems to be lost on WAY too many on this forum. You are BEHIND in an argument if you can't accurately state what you're arguing against; you've LOST the argument when you go into an emotional tizzy because you DISLIKE the point the other person is trying to make and take that dislike far enough to argue a point no one asserted. You, sir, fall into the latter.

---

You have not been paying much attention to this board lately. The amount of vitriol towards Sumlin over the last 3 weeks has been appalling. Hell, this very thread is using the performance of a team 10 years ago as a foundation to explain why Sumlin should be fired from Texas A&M as the head football coach. It is beyond not relevant. Your random ALL CAPS is pretty annoying.