That's fair. The reality is that the powers that be at Texas A&M value the football program and the HFC job at A&M highly, as in Top Ten vs all of our competitors highly. The commensurate expectations of program management and performance are also rightfully, in my opinion, high.

Rebel Yell said:

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Troutslime said:

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Rebel Yell said:

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halfastros81 said:

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Paying $5Mm per yr is a top ten salary. Program ranking might be # 30 over the past 4+ yrs and is not trending up. That's a big disconnect imo.

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Exactly. Some people on this board pipe up with "What does his salary have to do with anything?" Even calling it a red herring.

But here are the Top 6 salaries in College Football:

Saban $11 million - #1 Alabama
Harbaugh $9 million - #8 Michigan
Meyer $6 million - #10 Ohio State
Fisher $5.2 million - #12 Florida State
Herman $5.2 million - UNRANKED Texas (year 1)
Sumlin $5 million - UNRANKED Texas A&M (year 6)

Other than Herman in his first year, Sumlin stands out like a sore thumb.

Out of 128 schools, we pay more than 122 of them and we can't crack the Top 25 in Year 6???

That is why the money matters.

We are paying to win and we aren't winning.

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How many of the other coaches are playing without or with injured starting and backup qb's and rb's?

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Oh my God. Just stop.

Injuries are unfortunate and most people understand when that happens the team suffers. If this were an isolated year this might be a valid point. But this is Year 6 and the results are becoming predictable.

We did not lose UCLA because of injuries.
We did not struggle against Louisiana because of injuries.

And the great coaches overcome adversity. In 2013 Meyer won the National Championship with his 3rd String QB.

What else you got?

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If you want to be honest with your analysis, be sure to mention how many teams didn't meet expectations due to injuries. Your OSU point is an outlier. How many freshman played on that team in the two deep? Also, shouldnt Meyer now be on the hot seat since he just got smoked by the youngest head coach in football on his own field?

halfastros81 said:

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That's fair. The reality is that the powers that be at Texas A&M value the football program and the HFC job at A&M highly, as in Top Ten vs all of our competitors highly. The commensurate expectations of program management and performance are also rightfully, in my opinion, high.

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of course, they should be high. My opinion about salary has always been the following:

At Texas A&M we have an expectation to be at this level, insert definition.
Because of this expectation we have put a premium on the salary we offer in effort to attract the talent needed to achieve that level, insert salary in line with the expectation above and market rate for the talent pool.
If at any time the person in the position is determined to not be meeting or able to meet in the future the level we hired them to achieve then they are removed and replaced.

Having that approach requires money, money from donors, donors who donate huge chunks of money earmarked for such personnel changes.

contracts, extensions, guarantees, etc are a completely different topic altogether.

Ragoo said:

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Rebel Yell said:

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Ragoo said:

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Rebel Yell said:

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halfastros81 said:

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Paying $5Mm per yr is a top ten salary. Program ranking might be # 30 over the past 4+ yrs and is not trending up. That's a big disconnect imo.

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Exactly. Some people on this board pipe up with "What does his salary have to do with anything?" Even calling it a red herring.

But here are the Top 6 salaries in College Football:

Saban $11 million - #1 Alabama
Harbaugh $9 million - #8 Michigan
Meyer $6 million - #10 Ohio State
Fisher $5.2 million - #12 Florida State
Herman $5.2 million - UNRANKED Texas (year 1)
Sumlin $5 million - UNRANKED Texas A&M (year 6)

Other than Herman in his first year, Sumlin stands out like a sore thumb.

Out of 128 schools, we pay more than 122 of them and we can't crack the Top 25 in Year 6???

That is why the money matters.

We are paying to win and we aren't winning.

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what do the next 14 coaches get paid? Would you be willing to pay Sumlin that 20th salary?

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Saban, Harbaugh, Meyer, and Fisher are arguably the best coaches in the game. That is the company he is in. Therefore, that is who he will be compared too.

If we dropped to the company of the 20th highest paid coach, he would also suffer by comparison. All are performing as expected . . . Top 25 pay = Top 25 ranking.

18.) Patterson $4 million - #16 TCU
19.) Richt $4 million - #14 Miami
20.) Petrino $3.9 million - #19 Louisville
21.) Gundy $3.7 million - #6 Oklahoma State
22.) Smart $3.7 million - #11 Georgia

Without Manziel performing miracles, Sumlin is not a Top 25 coach. We finished unranked 2014, 2015, 2016 and its early but 2017 doesn't look good for us.

His performance is not in line with his compensation.

And since you keep bringing this up, if he were paid drastically less, the problem would still exist. I would still want him gone. There would still be frustration and anger, but the frustration would be aimed at the administration to pay for a big time coach. Regardless of how terrible the contract was structured, the administration has been willing to pay top dollars for a coach. He is just not the right coach.

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So, by your own admission, If Sumlin were paid more in line with his performance as a head coach you would still want him fired. That by default makes any conversation that includes salary a red herring. Why can't you just say, he is under performing the expectations as the head coach at Texas A&M and therefore should be released from his duties?

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If Sumlin were paid in line with his performance, those that want and expect more would most certainly want him gone. But at the same time, they would also want the administration gone for 'accepting mediocrity'. Or at the very least, people could say 'you get what you pay for' when faced with the mediocrity.

Ragoo said:

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Rebel Yell said:

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Ragoo said:

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Rebel Yell said:

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halfastros81 said:

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Paying $5Mm per yr is a top ten salary. Program ranking might be # 30 over the past 4+ yrs and is not trending up. That's a big disconnect imo.

---

Exactly. Some people on this board pipe up with "What does his salary have to do with anything?" Even calling it a red herring.

But here are the Top 6 salaries in College Football:

Saban $11 million - #1 Alabama
Harbaugh $9 million - #8 Michigan
Meyer $6 million - #10 Ohio State
Fisher $5.2 million - #12 Florida State
Herman $5.2 million - UNRANKED Texas (year 1)
Sumlin $5 million - UNRANKED Texas A&M (year 6)

Other than Herman in his first year, Sumlin stands out like a sore thumb.

Out of 128 schools, we pay more than 122 of them and we can't crack the Top 25 in Year 6???

That is why the money matters.

We are paying to win and we aren't winning.

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what do the next 14 coaches get paid? Would you be willing to pay Sumlin that 20th salary?

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Saban, Harbaugh, Meyer, and Fisher are arguably the best coaches in the game. That is the company he is in. Therefore, that is who he will be compared too.

If we dropped to the company of the 20th highest paid coach, he would also suffer by comparison. All are performing as expected . . . Top 25 pay = Top 25 ranking.

18.) Patterson $4 million - #16 TCU
19.) Richt $4 million - #14 Miami
20.) Petrino $3.9 million - #19 Louisville
21.) Gundy $3.7 million - #6 Oklahoma State
22.) Smart $3.7 million - #11 Georgia

Without Manziel performing miracles, Sumlin is not a Top 25 coach. We finished unranked 2014, 2015, 2016 and its early but 2017 doesn't look good for us.

His performance is not in line with his compensation.

And since you keep bringing this up, if he were paid drastically less, the problem would still exist. I would still want him gone. There would still be frustration and anger, but the frustration would be aimed at the administration to pay for a big time coach. Regardless of how terrible the contract was structured, the administration has been willing to pay top dollars for a coach. He is just not the right coach.

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So, by your own admission, If Sumlin were paid more in line with his performance as a head coach you would still want him fired. That by default makes any conversation that includes salary a red herring. Why can't you just say, he is under performing the expectations as the head coach at Texas A&M and therefore should be released from his duties?

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I feel like you are arguing just to argue. But I will play.

1.) Bill was punched in the face by his 8-year-old nephew.
2.) Ted was punched in the face by Mike Tyson in his prime.

Both Bill and Ted would agree that they did not want to be punched in the face. BUT THEY BOTH WERE. Past tense. So therefore the "by who" matters because it impacts the severity of the situation.

Likewise . . .

1.) Texas A&M loses games we should win and our coach is the 6th lowest paid coach.
2.) Texas A&M loses games we should win and our coach is the 6th highest paid coach.

These are two drastically different situations. We both agree that Texas A&M losing games we should win is bad. BUT WE HAVE LOST GAMES WE SHOULD WIN. Past tense. Therefore "how much" we paid impacts the severity of the situation.

The logic of your argument only works if you can avoid the negative premise. We cannot. We have already experienced the negative "losing games we should win". Now it is just a matter of severity.

In this situation, Sumlin's guaranteed contract is absolutely impacting the decision to keep him or let him go. I believe it did last year as well. To say his pay is not relevant to the conversation is ridiculous.

As with most everything else, it's about the ROI.

i am arguing just to argue, while your "playing" along includes anecdotal narratives? okay chief.

the logic of the premise is that you agree to pay a coach before any games are played. deciding to continue to employ the coach has nothing to do with the current salary and everything to do with meeting expectations. period.