The US and the Holocaust - Ken Burns

4,668 Views | 44 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by agracer
UTExan
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BQ78 said:

Quote:

Kind of like watching the sips play OU….don't care either way.
That's sort of my point, I don't care, so I won't watch. My time is valuable and I'd rather read a book than be lectured by Ken Burns on how racist America is. Every country is racist but to start by beating up on America is like attacking climate change by going after America and saying nothing to India and China, get it?



It's like this: anybody who studied a modicum of US history between the wars knows about the various anti-Semites: Father Coughlin, Lindbergh, Ford and much of the US State Department establishment which opposed the recognition of Israel.

The problem is that modern critical historians are seeking to impose their artificial (and nonexistent) 2022 ethical framework on the realities of the 19th and 20 century racial politics.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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AG
CanyonAg77 said:

Paul Dirac said:

Never knew about Charles Lindbergh

Unfortunately, I do know it.

I've always been an aviation nut, and We, about the 1927 flight, was one of the first adult books I recall reading. So he was one of my first heroes.

I think most of us thought he was simply against foreign wars, and was reflecting the views of the majority of Americans who looked back to 1918, and had no desire to send American troops to fight European Wars again.

Isolationism and letting the Europeans kill each other, not us, sounded pretty good in 1940-1941. It wasn't until Pearl Harbor, and Hitler declaring war on us soon after, that public opinion did a 180.

Looking back now, Lindbergh was less pro-America, and more pro-Germany and anti-Jew. He was so pro-German, that after WWII, he went over there and (fornicated with) three German women, and produced seven German children, to go with the six he had with Anne Morrow.

After Pearl Harbor, Lindbergh tried to publicly join the war effort, but FDR wouldn't have it. Pretty sure Roosevelt hated him.

However, he did manage to get to the Pacific Theater, I think as a rep for an aircraft company, and taught P-38 pilots how to run their engine mixtures lean, without damaging the engine. This lead to a greatly increased range, which was a Big Deal in the long, long missions over the Pacific.

He even flew combat missions, and downed at least one Japanese aircraft.

He never went to the ETO. I guess he wasn't on board with killing white people.
Believe he was sent to the Pacific to avoid any fallout from his pre-war views.
annie88
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AG
Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Stive said:

There's been tons of reporting from the past about Henry Ford's anti-Jewish stances. They were no secret.


I would imagine most of the general public isn't aware of this.


Maybe not the general public but anyone with a true interest in history knew this.
Currently a happy listless vessel and deplorable. #FJB TRUMP 2024.
Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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annie88 said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Stive said:

There's been tons of reporting from the past about Henry Ford's anti-Jewish stances. They were no secret.


I would imagine most of the general public isn't aware of this.


Maybe not the general public but anyone with a true interest in history knew this.
Isn't that implied in my statement?
If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
cbr
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AG
Wow this took a wild turn.

Im not listening to some trash put out by someone who thinks trump is the problem, if that's in his playbook then nothing he says can be trusted.

And i dont even really like trump, but respect him for shining light on the real issues.

Anyone who has followed history knows that 'white supremacy', especially the american kind, while just as unethical as other hateful ideologies, has actually done fairly little damage in history compared to communism, islam, etc., for instance.

I will suggest that even modern americans, who see where the political parties are taking us, using basic hitler/stalinist playbooks, might should take another look back at the twentieth century from a new perspective

While my grandparents were the greatest generation, and were probably the most ethical army and generation in history, and they fought and my great uncles all died in ww2, looking back with what we now know, it arguably puts a different perspective on things.

We should have stayed out of ww1, maybe even taken the other side. even ww2 was far from the 'good war' we were raised to believe, and it was fought for reasons slightly different even than what our gi forefathers were led to believe.

With stalin threatening the world, and much more dangerous in every way even than hitler, maybe lindberg and kennedy and ford werent as wrong as i grew up believing.

Did we leave post ww1 world in a better place? Destroyed our freedoms, subjugated our finances, lost men in france, spread a plague, left russia under lenin, germany ripe for socialism, the middle east deliberately carved into chaos; japan insulted and isolated; i'd say absolutely not

Did we leave the world better after ww2? Half a million dead americans, Stalin in charge from germany to vietnam and korea, with nukes in hand, western european culture emaciated, israel creating a flash point for constant conflict, our government and culture subverted by socialists, the military industrial complex, mao starving hundreds of millions, disorderly abandonment of stabilizing influence in africa, in hindsight and with declassed info now known, stalin basically orchestrated our role in ww2 from start to finish.

Nazism would likely have burnt itself out. Everyone hates nazis. 'Germany the master race' was never going to have wide appeal or lasting impact imo.

But Communism, it suckers the poor (and for some reason, intellectuals with no common sense) all over the world into being its useful idiots. Much more evil. Much more dangerous.

In hindsight, we should have probably taken the german generals' hitler coup offers in 42-43, forced an end to the camps, etc., and teamed up with the germans to end ww2 by ousting the communists from russia, and squashing mao for good too. No way to know for sure, but odds are it'd be a better world.
BadMoonRisin
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AG
Quote:

The conservatives that installed Adolf Hitler were certain they could control him; in a few months they were either dead or completely marginalised. It is a telling story: he wished to make Germany great.



Lol wut?

Nope.
Sapper Redux
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The leaders and parties willing to form a coalition with the Nazis in the government were the more conservative groups.
BQ78
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AG
Conservatives or anti-Communist? Or do you consider them one and the same?
Sapper Redux
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BQ78 said:

Conservatives or anti-Communist? Or do you consider them one and the same?


Conservatives. The Social Democrats were center-left and bitterly against the communists.
agracer
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AG
BrazosDog02 said:

I think it's tragic to write off an entire series because it's based on a conclusion someone doesn't agree with. It's a good series thus far. The facts are facts. Personally I don't see goofy trump supporter as indication we are going to install a new hitler. I do agree that the extreme right are extreme and over the top but I have the same complaint with the left. I'm not watching this series because I need to validate my views though so I can watch it without a lot concern or anger. Kind of like watching the sips play OU….don't care either way.
It's not about agreeing or disagreeing, it's about a ridiculously weak argument that conservatives (or Trump supporters) are some how Nazi's now b/c they want people to immigrate to America legally. If he's touched on how congress has done absolutely NOTHING to fix the immigration system in America and the current border is a mess of crime and sex trafficking that both parties are responsible for, then he'd maybe have a legitimate point. But at the end of the day he's just a radical liberal with an agenda.
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