I think Ken Burns has jumped the shark on the issue of racism in America, so I decided not to watch it. My wife elected to watch it and confirmed my suspicions about it after watching the first episode. She stopped watching after the first episode and said she might watch the rest on Amazon later. She was not impressed compared to his past work and not inspired enough to keep watching.

Like BQ78, I saw some clip of Burns equating our current immigration situation to Nazi policy, and I too decided to skip the show.

Tonight I ran across it, watched it for a bit, and then watched the whole remaining 2 hours.

Much of this second episode was about the Nazis and the lead-in to WWII, touching at some length on the vicious fighting between FDR and the America Firsters led by Lindbergh.

(I was aware of the bad blood between the two, having read Lynne Olson's "Those Angry Days.")

There was also quite a bit on how the extermination program began and was brought to fruition--photos of proud Nazi troops recording their atrocities with still and movie cameras.

Also, one of the people they are interviewing knew Anne Frank.

I thought it was honest but fair, so far. The program makes it very clear that it was not just the US that limited the number of Jewish refugees we took in. No one wanted a huge influx of Jews. Such were the times, sadly.

WWII is a special interest of mine and it is always striking to think that there are so many people still very much alive who suffered through it and survived.

There's been tons of reporting from the past about Henry Ford's anti-Jewish stances. They were no secret.

Stive said:

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There's been tons of reporting from the past about Henry Ford's anti-Jewish stances. They were no secret.

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I would imagine most of the general public isn't aware of this.

Does he talk about how the Mexicans sold oil to the Nazis from 1938-40 after they nationalized their industry and needed a place to sell to avoid the predictable sanctions? Does he mention that the guy who did the deal between Mexicans and Nazis was the father of future California Governor Grey Davis?

Lots of bad links to the Nazis, especially early on before we knew anything about the holocaust.

Not to mention the Kennedys. No there will be nothing said about all that I am pretty sure.

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It may be Burns's most didactic film yet as it ends provocatively with images of Dylann Roof, who shot and killed nine African American congregants at a church in South Carolina; white supremacists marching with flaming torches in Charlottesville, Virginia, chanting "Jews will not replace us!"; the killing of 11 worshippers at a synagogue in Pittsburgh; and the storming of the US Capitol by a mob of Donald Trump supporters on 6 January 2021.

"We were obligated to do that because the way we mount this series is we begin with antisemitism in America and racism and the pernicious slave trade and xenophobia and nativism and eugenics," he explains. "We're obligated then to not close our eyes and pretend this is some comfortable thing in the past that doesn't rhyme with the present."
Burns has been sounding the alarm about the threat to American democracy since a commencement address at Stanford University in California in June 2016. Six years and one Trump presidency later, he is more worried than ever.

"After three previous great crises, I think we're in the fourth and perhaps the most difficult crisis in the history of America. The three being the civil war, the great depression and the second world war, the institutions were not under assault as they are today and that makes the fragility of Benjamin Franklin's statement, 'A republic, if you can keep it,' all the more relevant.

Building a wall is an undeniable echo of Trump's presidential campaign launch in 2015, repeated countless times since. The film describes anti-immigrant sentiment in the 1930s and 1940s rooted in fear of being "replaced" a foreshadowing of the "great replacement" conspiracy theory that now animates the far right.

Burns, who is fond of a quotation often attributed to Mark Twain "History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes," reflects: "As we worked on the film, it became increasingly clear with a great deal of anxiety and urgency just how much nearly every sentence was rhyming. The conservatives that installed Adolf Hitler were certain they could control him; in a few months they were either dead or completely marginalised. It is a telling story: he wished to make Germany great again.

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The Guardian


Pass.

Which is a shame as I think the US should have done a lot more to get Jews out of Europe before the war, but the slow reaction and inaction wasn't unique. It's a story to tell for sure, but with the hyperbole being thrown around I just ain't interested in his latest take on the times.

p_bubel said:

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It may be Burns's most didactic film yet as it ends provocatively with images of Dylann Roof, who shot and killed nine African American congregants at a church in South Carolina; white supremacists marching with flaming torches in Charlottesville, Virginia, chanting "Jews will not replace us!"; the killing of 11 worshippers at a synagogue in Pittsburgh; and the storming of the US Capitol by a mob of Donald Trump supporters on 6 January 2021.

"We were obligated to do that because the way we mount this series is we begin with antisemitism in America and racism and the pernicious slave trade and xenophobia and nativism and eugenics," he explains. "We're obligated then to not close our eyes and pretend this is some comfortable thing in the past that doesn't rhyme with the present."
Burns has been sounding the alarm about the threat to American democracy since a commencement address at Stanford University in California in June 2016. Six years and one Trump presidency later, he is more worried than ever.

"After three previous great crises, I think we're in the fourth and perhaps the most difficult crisis in the history of America. The three being the civil war, the great depression and the second world war, the institutions were not under assault as they are today and that makes the fragility of Benjamin Franklin's statement, 'A republic, if you can keep it,' all the more relevant.

Building a wall is an undeniable echo of Trump's presidential campaign launch in 2015, repeated countless times since. The film describes anti-immigrant sentiment in the 1930s and 1940s rooted in fear of being "replaced" a foreshadowing of the "great replacement" conspiracy theory that now animates the far right.

Burns, who is fond of a quotation often attributed to Mark Twain "History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes," reflects: "As we worked on the film, it became increasingly clear with a great deal of anxiety and urgency just how much nearly every sentence was rhyming. The conservatives that installed Adolf Hitler were certain they could control him; in a few months they were either dead or completely marginalised. It is a telling story: he wished to make Germany great again.

---

The Guardian


Pass.

Which is a shame as I think the US should have done a lot more to get Jews out of Europe before the war, but the slow reaction and inaction wasn't unique. It's a story to tell for sure, but with the hyperbole being thrown around I just ain't interested in his latest take on the times.

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Before the war, how could anyone have known what danger the Jews and other groups were in? The atrocities committed are still unbelievable to this day. If we had even an inkling of what was to come, I would think we would have opened up a lot more.

I think it's tragic to write off an entire series because it's based on a conclusion someone doesn't agree with. It's a good series thus far. The facts are facts. Personally I don't see goofy trump supporter as indication we are going to install a new hitler. I do agree that the extreme right are extreme and over the top but I have the same complaint with the left. I'm not watching this series because I need to validate my views though so I can watch it without a lot concern or anger. Kind of like watching the sips play OU….don't care either way.

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Kind of like watching the sips play OU….don't care either way.

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That's sort of my point, I don't care, so I won't watch. My time is valuable and I'd rather read a book than be lectured by Ken Burns on how racist America is. Every country is racist but to start by beating up on America is like attacking climate change by going after America and saying nothing to India and China, get it?

" I think it's tragic to write off an entire series because it's based on a conclusion someone doesn't agree with"

It is tragic, but not related to the reason you stated. Trust is a funny thing. When someone actually shows you who they are, believe them. Shallow and poorly connected reasoning/arguments regarding much easier, accessible and current material doesn't inspire confidence with a more difficult and distant subject matter.

BQ78 said:

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Kind of like watching the sips play OU….don't care either way.

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That's sort of my point, I don't care, so I won't watch. My time is valuable and I'd rather read a book than be lectured by Ken Burns on how racist America is. Every country is racist but to start by beating up on America is like attacking climate change by going after America and saying nothing to India and China, get it?

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So American exceptionalism except for the bad parts? I legitimately don't get this attitude. Burns makes films about the US, not the rest of the world. The subject is for an American audience and it's covering a topic that doesn't get discussed much at all in traditional education. Yes, it's an unsavory part of our past. We're only recently willing to acknowledge the full extent of our problems in the wider popular public sphere. Should we not do that?

aalan94 said:

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Does he talk about how the Mexicans sold oil to the Nazis from 1938-40 after they nationalized their industry and needed a place to sell to avoid the predictable sanctions? Does he mention that the guy who did the deal between Mexicans and Nazis was the father of future California Governor Grey Davis?

Lots of bad links to the Nazis, especially early on before we knew anything about the holocaust.

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So it needs to hit a checklist of people on the political left before it's accurate in your mind? What exactly are you asking for? Ford and Lindbergh and Coughlin were major public figures and carried a great deal of weight in popular American attitudes towards Jews and the Nazis. It would make sense to focus on people like that in a series like this. As it would make sense to focus on laws, policies, and attitudes that presaged or even inspired aspects of the German racial laws that led to the Holocaust.

Sapper:

You know very well I recognize America's problems from my past posting, so don't give me that bull crap. Yes, we need to read and study the warts but I don't need Ken Burns gaslighting me that the Nazis are back and they are the right in this country. If anything totalitarianism is coming from today's left: Antifa, vaccine mandates, grooming, financial cancelling of conservative organizations, etc., etc. But Ken Burns thinks the right is the issue and the Nazis are back. Go read his interviews and what he said about this series while promoting it. He is the closed minded one, not those who choose to ignore his point of view.

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I don't need Ken Burns gaslighting me that the Nazis are back and they are the right in this country. If anything totalitarianism is coming from today's left: Antifa, vaccine mandates, grooming, financial cancelling of conservative organizations, etc., etc. But Ken Burns thinks the right is the issue and the Nazis are back.

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My thoughts exactly. Well said.

Basically, anti-USA!

I missed Episode 1. I watched almost all of Episode 2 and just finished Episode 3.

As I said earlier, I thought the filmmakers' presentation was balanced and fair.

Anytime an historian or other observer offered negative commentary about America's failure to intervene, Burns balanced it with a more generous interpretation.

The final episode, for instance, goes into much detail about the War Refugee Board, which I had never heard of.

Most of the Jews who were killed died before American troops even landed in Europe, so Americans can hardly be held responsible for that (which is Burns' point).

But the Refugee Board was nevertheless able to save tens of thousands of Jewish lives, particularly in places such as Hungary.

This last episode also does a fair job of presenting the case for and against bombing the concentration camps. The discussion ends with an historian who concludes, correctly in my opinion, that either choice was wrong and would be criticized in the future.

But in the very end of the episode Burns loses his way and tries to equate Trump and the Jan. 6 people and isolated cases of anti-Semitism with the return of Nazism. Just craziness.



My final note: If Burns' intent was to make Americans feel guilty for not doing more to take in Jewish refugees before the war or for not doing something to stop the concentration camps, I think this documentary fails to do so.

Rather, the work shows rather convincingly that no one before the war could predict what barbarity the Nazis would go on to inflict on European Jews and that even when that barbarity came to light, most of it had already happened. Moreover, the US military was in no position to do anything about Jews in concentration camps until the camps were liberated in the course of winning the war.

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"As we worked on the film, it became increasingly clear with a great deal of anxiety and urgency just how much nearly every sentence was rhyming. The conservatives that installed Adolf Hitler were certain they could control him; in a few months they were either dead or completely marginalised. It is a telling story: he wished to make Germany great again.

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**** Ken Burns.

This kind of myopic derangement means that the film will simply be a political screed, as opposed to an informative documentary.

Going into a subject with a pre-formed view point is a recipe for propaganda.

Paul Dirac said:

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Never knew about Charles Lindbergh

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Unfortunately, I do know it.

I've always been an aviation nut, and We, about the 1927 flight, was one of the first adult books I recall reading. So he was one of my first heroes.

I think most of us thought he was simply against foreign wars, and was reflecting the views of the majority of Americans who looked back to 1918, and had no desire to send American troops to fight European Wars again.

Isolationism and letting the Europeans kill each other, not us, sounded pretty good in 1940-1941. It wasn't until Pearl Harbor, and Hitler declaring war on us soon after, that public opinion did a 180.

Looking back now, Lindbergh was less pro-America, and more pro-Germany and anti-Jew. He was so pro-German, that after WWII, he went over there and (fornicated with) three German women, and produced seven German children, to go with the six he had with Anne Morrow.

After Pearl Harbor, Lindbergh tried to publicly join the war effort, but FDR wouldn't have it. Pretty sure Roosevelt hated him.

However, he did manage to get to the Pacific Theater, I think as a rep for an aircraft company, and taught P-38 pilots how to run their engine mixtures lean, without damaging the engine. This lead to a greatly increased range, which was a Big Deal in the long, long missions over the Pacific.

He even flew combat missions, and downed at least one Japanese aircraft.

He never went to the ETO. I guess he wasn't on board with killing white people.