at the bottom of the Sibuyan Sea. Yamato's sister ship. http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2015/03/04/japan-battleship-paul-allen-microsoft/24361075/

Great find! Unlike that guy I wish we could have put a few more bombs & fish in her...

Somebody get titan over here to give us his thoughts.

Coincidentally, I just Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors the day before this was announced. Would love to see more pictures.

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Great find! Unlike that guy I wish we could have put a few more bombs & fish in her...

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Something like 13 torpedoes and 19 bombs. Dont' know how much more it could have taken.

Interesting that it was the japs that proved , once and for all, that the era of the behemoth battleship was over at Pearl Harbor yet they spent vast precious resources and manpower on 2 of the most powerful surface ships ever built. Neither of which added one iota of significance to the jap cause. What would have happened if the IJN had used that energy and resources to build subs, carriers and support ships instead of massive useless coffins.

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Interesting that it was the japs that proved , once and for all, that the era of the behemoth battleship was over at Pearl Harbor yet they spent vast precious resources and manpower on 2 of the most powerful surface ships ever built. Neither of which added one iota of significance to the jap cause. What would have happened if the IJN had used that energy and resources to build subs, carriers and support ships instead of massive useless coffins.

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And we built the 4 of the Iowa class to keep up with them.

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Interesting that it was the japs that proved , once and for all, that the era of the behemoth battleship was over at Pearl Harbor yet they spent vast precious resources and manpower on 2 of the most powerful surface ships ever built. Neither of which added one iota of significance to the jap cause. What would have happened if the IJN had used that energy and resources to build subs, carriers and support ships instead of massive useless coffins.

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And we built the 4 of the Iowa class to keep up with them.

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. In response to the Russian Kirov Class Battlecruiser congress in 2006 declared that the Iowa and Wisconsin be kept in good running condition in case they and their 16" guns are needed again (despite both becoming museum ships.)

Serious question. Other than as a show of force asset ..is there really ANY reason for monster surface ships anymore? Has there really been any need since the 40's. I can see the use as offshore fire support platforms thanks to the guns that can shoot VW Beetle sized projectiles and such but can't get more bang for the buck using a fleet of fast, powerful fantastically armed smaller ships vs a really really big target ?

Offshore artillery bombardment!

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Somebody get titan over here to give us his thoughts.

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Howdy guys,

This is indeed quite a find, and its had me rather busy with some of the interpretations. I am pretty sure some charts and translations I sent to them in '06 played a role--if so, delighted, but it doesn't matter as much as the successful discovery!

First off, in this case for Musashi I can vouch for the Wikipedia page on her, and can go from there with any queries.

She is one of the pair of super-battleships the Japanese Navy commissioned. (A third, Shinano, was converted into a giant aircraft carrier after Midway, one of the biggest until the ironically named Midway-class U.S. carriers.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Musashi

To enlarge on what you see there, what they are finding of the wreck kind of surprises me. It does seem she broke up---the structural damage must have been really great. The best of the Japanese accounts by survivors strongly implied there was no big explosion at the end (like happened with sister-ship the famous Yamato)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Yamato

Now the bow had been so heavily "can-opened" by torpedo hits, its easy enough to believe it broke off, but the surprise is seeing turbines. This means break up aft too. The good part is so far everything doesn't seem to be bottom up (like Yamato's stern segment unfortunately is).

I had the opportunity to see an Iowa class and a CVN leave Hampton Roads one day from Fort Monroe back in the early 80's.

I was struck how small the BB looked from a distance and how low in the water they sit compared to a CVN. The really do look like sharks on the surface.

I do believe that we still use very big ships with awesome firepower to project our influence across the globe. They still chunk 2,000 pound projectiles, they just use F-18's to do it now. The BB's are long obsolete in this regard.

I remember watching the news video of the Missouri firing during the gulf war. Amazingly awesome sight even on the television. My granddad was a gunners mate on the Alabama. He was proud to see that footage when it was shown.

More on subject it is highly ironic as mentioned earlier that the Japanese used so many resources on ships designed for tactics that they themselves rendered utterly obsolete at the onset of hostilities. Our nation's cause was helped in so many ways on both fronts Europe and Pacific by strange twists of fate like that

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Our nation's cause was helped in so many ways on both fronts Europe and Pacific by strange twists of fate like that

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Very true. The Allies also were lucky that Hitler insisted the ME-262 jet should be a bomber. That delayed the jet's development/production just long enough for the Allies to practically destroy the Luftwaffe in the air and on the ground. The ME-262 could have changed the course of the war, or, at the very least, prolonged it a few years.

Am I completely off base, or hasn't the jury returned for further deliberations on the aircraft carrier?

It's offensive capabilities, as those of the battleship, are established, but defense seems to be an ongoing and growing consideration, one example being the evolving tactic of throwing waves of high speed, small but lethal vessels at them in conjunction, when possible, with airborne weapons.


The likelihood of a significant portion of these elements being manned by death-seeking (or, at least, accepting) fanatics -- ref. kamikaze-piloted aircraft of fading memory -- adds an unwanted element to the calculation.

Hostile submarines, of course, are no small factor.

With the developing laser technology, along with other technologies, does anyone think the 'carriers might be on the same trajectory as the battleship? On the other hand, Russia and, especially China, are entering the sweepstakes.

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In response to the Russian Kirov Class Battlecruiser congress in 2006 declared that the Iowa and Wisconsin be kept in good running condition in case they and their 16" guns are needed again (despite both becoming museum ships.)

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I was very much intrigued by the above statenent and sure enough it was true. Thanks for posting that.

I found this on the Wisconson wikipedia page however:

"On 14 December 2009 the US Navy officially transferred Wisconsin to the city of Norfolk, ending the requirement for the ship to be preserved for possible recall to active duty. The US Navy had paid the city of Norfolk $2.8 million between 2000 and 2009 to maintain the ship. A formal ceremony transferring the ship to the city of Norfolk took place on 16 April 2010. Wisconsin was listed on the National Register of Historic Places on 28 March 2012."

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Our nation's cause was helped in so many ways on both fronts Europe and Pacific by strange twists of fate like that

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Very true. The Allies also were lucky that Hitler insisted the ME-262 jet should be a bomber. That delayed the jet's development/production just long enough for the Allies to practically destroy the Luftwaffe in the air and on the ground. The ME-262 could have changed the course of the war, or, at the very least, prolonged it a few years.

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This is a myth.

The limiting factor was the engine's (Jumo 004) service life at the time was only 10 hours. Until this was improved there was no way that the jet could be put into production. It wasn't until August of 1944 that it was extended to 25 hrs which was accptable for mass production to commence. Hitler himself recended his "Bomber" order in September of 1944. Hitler's order may have delayed deployment by at most three weeks.
'The Last Year Of The Luftwaffe: May 1944-May 1945' by Alfred Price, p147-8:

Are aircraft carriers now obsolete? Don't we need smaller ships that can fly and land 1000s of drones?

Or how about the units that were held off by a German upper command during the D-day invasion because they were sure the real landing would be elsewhere

credit should be given to us for that. there was quite a bit of deception on our part that made that possible.

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credit should be given to us for that. there was quite a bit of deception on our part that made that possible.

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The real credit should go to the P-47's and Typhoons that dominated the French road network and didn't allow the German Divisions to travel from their staging areas to the front without being shot to pieces in the process. Literally strangled the units at the front of supplies and replacement material and soldiers.

Read any reports from the German command in Normandy. All they can talk about is the Allied Jabo's and the Allied dominance in artillery, specially naval fire support, which they had no answer for.

All of that is true. But there was a time very early that they could have crashed in and crushed the landing. I believe it was in the book Patton and Rommel: Men of War in the Twentieth Century, I was reading which made the point that with Rommel back in Germany for his wife's birthday; there was no one of his caliber there to read the various and confused reports coming from the front. Thus delaying any counter action until it went further up the chain. By that time the roads were kill zones in day light. They missed their window to fight off the landing because their best was on leave and giving his wife a pair of shoes for her birthday.

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All of that is true. But there was a time very early that they could have crashed in and crushed the landing. I believe it was in the book Patton and Rommel: Men of War in the Twentieth Century, I was reading which made the point that with Rommel back in Germany for his wife's birthday; there was no one of his caliber there to read the various and confused reports coming from the front. Thus delaying any counter action until it went further up the chain. By that time the roads were kill zones in day light. They missed their window to fight off the landing because their best was on leave and giving his wife a pair of shoes for her birthday.

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The 22 Panzer Regiment and the 192 PG Regiment of the 21st Panzer Division did attack the British on the evening of the 6th and reached Sword Beach near Lion-Su-Mer but did so with only 6 tanks left intact. There shot to pieces by the allied ground attack aircraft.

Rommel being gone had nothing to do with it. All of the German Panzer Divisions except the 21st Near Caen, where deployed in holding areas away from the coast line by Von Rundstedts, who was Rommels boss. Rommel wanted to deploy them on the coast itself, which would have only hasten their distruction. It literally took two days to get the 12 SS Panzer Division moving , not because Rommel was not there but because they were under constant attacks by allied ground attack aircraft. The Divisions first casualties were to air attacks long before they even got close to the British. Panzer Meyer's "Grenadier" goes into this with great detail.

Hitler having operational control over Panzer Divisions in strategic reserves did not help either. I don't think they were turned loose until very late in the day on the 6th. Rommel returned to his HQ the night of the 6th.

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Hitler having operational control over Panzer Divisions in strategic reserves did not help either. I don't think they were turned loose until very late in the day on the 6th. Rommel returned to his HQ the night of the 6th.

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This was the part that could have changed things if it would have happened sooner. Rommel had Hitler's ear more so than maybe any officer in the German army. It is plausible to think that he could have gotten those units into action much sooner if he were in a position to see and read the situation.

Guys,

Wanted to pass on this heads-up on Musashi. Major live session scheduled tomorrow for 8pm Texas time. I hope to maybe get on some link with them soon, we will see.

Incidentally, so far what has turned out revealed by the video and short audio descriptions actually tells alot when merged with knowledge of her sinking. It looks like when Musashi nosed under by the bow and rolled to port, her forward section broke off or bent, as has been suspected for a while. (Musashi sank nearly exactly at sunset about four hours after the last torpedo hits. Because of the twilight, eyes could play tricks, but it was thought the forepart showed buckling even before she sank. (It was totally awash forward, submerged, even while the rest of the battleship was still buoyant.) She then dove under at something like a 90 degree angle on her port side, stern upraised. The surprise though was learning that on the way down to the ocean floor, the killing depth and pressures actually imploded the still air-filled after section (it hadn't had much damage). This shattered the hull aft of amidships, spilling out even huge turbines that drove propeller shafts, and the wrecked stern seems to have landed upside down (like with Yamato's wreck actually). The midships section came to rest on its port side, and the bow section is upright. Fortunately, it does seem that unlike Yamato, the amidships great conning tower and AA battery array are intact, if lying sideways.


http://www.paulallen.com/news/press-release/exploration/musashi-live-media-alert

Thanks titan!
Can't wait.

Just ducking in for a quick heads-up. The live tour of the wreck begins in 15 minutes.

http://musashi.paulallen.com/

Follow:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/musashilive

Who all saw it? It was quite an experience. Like being there, as they send the ROV through and around the debris field. Musashi is incredibly broken up----apparently had one for sure, and maybe two magazine explosions after leaving the surface. That the sinking as witnessed above seemed less violent than Yamato's turned out totally misleading. The wreck may be in worse shape than Yamato's!

Even so, very important parts to historians of Musashi's wreck survived---- the expedition did indeed answer some of the questions about detail and differences from Yamato that have discussed. Also, since a boiler and turbine were found, this offers chance to actually photograph some of the great propulsion plant of which even engineering drawings don't appear to survive, let alone photos.

Holy cow that torpedo damage really brings home how terrifying it would be to be under attack on board a ship

aqgbq-00

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Holy cow that torpedo damage really brings home how terrifying it would be to be under attack on board a ship

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No doubt, it is very scary -- especially the sense of hearing as hits nearby come closer, and you are all shut up at action stations in some compartment.

However, in Musashi's damage and wreck found, understand that much of what you are seeing is massive blast damage from the explosion of 18-inch magazines and some of the AA ones amidships. Maybe more than one. (They still haven't clarified, but it looks pretty clear that No.2 was one of them, and the C turret (aft one) barbette looks bent and damaged enough to have been the other. I may be wrong, but looking at the damage, the No.1 or most forward 18-inch turret barbette looks so intact and smooth, it probably did not explode---the turret just fell out like those on Bismarck on the way to the bottom.

Anyway, which ever magazines let go, they did most of the havoc you see in the bottom debris field images. That and implosions of some of the wreckage.

One irony of wrecks---the longer it takes for them to sink at first, the more filled the whole ship becomes with water, the better the wreck will. Because there will be less air pockets to create implosions. Our carrier Yorktown was so water-logged by the time she went down, she ended up in very good shape on the bottom of the Pacific. Musashi's whole forward section was flooded, so didn't implode, but when she dove under, most of her aft of amidships was not that flooded, had hardly been hit by torpedoes.

Hey Titan, what is it that you do? Just curious because you seem really knowledgeable in this field.

titan (or anyone else who knows)--the wreck of Shinano still remains to be located, right?

Historian and a Pacific War specialist.

Yokel,

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titan (or anyone else who knows)--the wreck of Shinano still remains to be located, right?

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Right, as far as known, Shinano has not been located and especially, filmed yet. There are strong rumors that navy sub navigation off Japan, or similar official sources, have a wreck area known. But this is little more than deduction from the realities of the cold war. As we see from Musashi, the Japanese would probably be rather enthused to see such video, so it seems more likely that Shinano's sinking position has not been confirmed.

Seems fitting that what must be the least photographed significant military vessel of WWII remains concealed in death.

Wss the Shinano the carrier that the japanese had just launched and got sunk while either on trials or on the way to fitting out?

i thought the carrier I'm thinking of was sunk in relatively shallow water, capsized, and was partially above water. Apparently not. Does anyone know the carrier I'm thinking of? The flight deck was a perfect 90 degrees off of where it shoul have been.

Separate topic - when the japanese lost a ship the crew loss was......wow. reading the casualty numbers from any Japanese ship sinking is staggering. poor training, lack of priority to save the sailors or both?

edit - I know that later in the war our superior numbers probably deprived them of the ability to conduct rescue operations. I don't think that was the case at Midway where they had superior numbers of ships present.