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So if the assassination happened one billion times, I'm sure a neuromuscular reaction might be possible one of those times. Is this the easiest and most likely explanation though? This person is just feeding the questioner what he wants in response to a leading question.

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You've obviously never put animals down or hunted much in your life. I've shot 100's (maybe into the 1,000's) of animals in my almost 40 years of being alive. I would wager that most of the things I've hit in the head had neuromuscular reactions. With many birds (dove, duck, quail, pheasant), you can see the reaction when you hit them on the fly, and my dad and I can tell sometimes when we've had a head shot (typically not on purpose....a piece of shot from the shot gun aimed at the animal). They fall different, they flinch differently, etc.


I've thought for years now that the "back and to the left" crap was likely a muscle seizure. And I'm definitely not a scientist, forensics expert, or even a Kennedy assassination afficianado. Simply a country boy that's seen a lot of animals die after being shot in a lot of different spots on their body; brain included.

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I think he was talking about you, but I could be wrong.

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You weren't, and he knew it.

Yep, I was talking to Cynic
He is wrong about everything. There was one shooter, 3 shots. I know. It was me

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There was one shooter, 3 shots. I know. It was me

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You were the shooter? This changes everything!

Yep. It was about 18-1/2 years after I took Hitler to Argentina in a U-boat

Here is what FBI Agent James Sibert, who attended the autopsy of JFK, said about the single bullet theory:

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Sibert: Well I-that single-bullet theory-when they had me come up to the ARRB deposition there at College Park, I said, "Well before I come up there, I want you to know one thing. I'm not an advocate of the single-bullet theory." I said, "I don't believe it because I stood there two foot from where that bullet wound was in the back, the one that they eventually moved up to the base of the neck. I was there when Boswell made his face sheet and located that wound exactly as we described it in the FD 302." And I said, "Furthermore, when they examined the clothing after it got into the Bureau, those bullet holes in the shirt and the coat were down 5 inches there. So there is no way that bullet could have gone that low then rise up and come out the front of the neck, zigzag and hit Connally and then end up pristine on a stretcher over there in Dallas."IN THE EYE OF HISTORY: Disclosures in the JFK Assassination Medical Evidence. by William Law

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Here is what a forensics expert (Sherry Fiester) says about the movement of a head when it gets shot:

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When examining the Zapruder film frame by frame, it is readily apparent the President Kennedy's head moves forward slightly for one frame before his head and shoulders move backward in response to the gunshot wound to the head.

German wound ballistic researcher Bernd Karger, states initial transfer of energy causes the target to move minutely into the force and against the line of fire, prior to target movement with the force of the moving bullet. Karger found greater the transferred energy, the more pronounced the forward movement (Karger, 2008). Wound ballistic researcher Robin Coupland used high-speed photography to confirm and document the forward movement into the line of fire referenced by Karger (Coupland, 2011).

Researchers Karger and Coupland noted the force in a moving bullet is energy of motion, or kinetic energy. Upon impact, the bullet pushes against the head, and initially, as the weight of the head is greater than the weight of the bullet, the head moves against the line of fire. As the projectile slows, more kinetic energy transfers to the target. A overcoming the weight of the head with a sufficient transfer of energy causes the target to move with the continued direction of force of the moving bullet. Application of contemporary wound ballistics research to the movement observed in the Zapruder film indicates a minute forward motion followed by more pronounced rearward movementconsistent with a single shot from the front.

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Keep holding that loony line!

The pathologists who conducted President Kennedy's autopsy were presented with the CE 399 bullet by representatives of the Warren Commission and were asked whether they thought it could have caused Connally's injuries.

Dr James Humes, the chief pathologist, replied:
"I think that is most unlikely. This missile is basically intact; its jacket appears to me to be intact, and I do not understand how it could possibly have left fragments in either of those locations. I doubt if this missile would have left behind it any metallic fragments from its physical appearance at this time. Metallic fragments were not removed and are still present in Governor Connally's thigh. I can't conceive of where they came from this missile." (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.2, pp.37476)

The other two pathologists, Dr J. Thornton Boswell (ibid., p.377) and Dr Pierre Finck ("there are too many fragments": ibid., pp.381f), agreed with Dr Humes.

Connally's testimony: Warren Commission Hearings, vol.4, pp.135f. He was quoted in the Washington Post, 21 November 1966, saying that "there is my absolute knowledge that one bullet caused the president's first wound and that an entirely separate shot struck me. It is a certainty. I will never change my mind." It was Connally's testimony that persuaded one of the Warren Commissioners, Senator Richard Russell, that the singlebullet theory was untenable; see Richard Russell and the Warren Report.

Of course his testimony is relevant. It's easy to see why he thought that if you look at the Zapruder film. If you look at frames 269-271, you can see that Kennedy is already hit (he was likely hit around Z-189). Jackie is holding his left wrist and looking at him as he has his hands up toward his throat. Connally is turned around looking at JFK, and is clearly not hit yet. He is holding his hat with his right hand which doesn't seem possible if his wrist is shattered (which it isn't, that happens a split second later when he is hit with a different shot).

Of course, a bullet hitting him at that point in the back wouldn't come out at the throat, would it?

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The pathologists who conducted President Kennedy's autopsy were presented with the CE 399 bullet by representatives of the Warren Commission and were asked whether they thought it could have caused Connally's injuries.

Dr James Humes, the chief pathologist, replied:
"I think that is most unlikely. This missile is basically intact; its jacket appears to me to be intact, and I do not understand how it could possibly have left fragments in either of those locations. I doubt if this missile would have left behind it any metallic fragments from its physical appearance at this time. Metallic fragments were not removed and are still present in Governor Connally's thigh. I can't conceive of where they came from this missile." (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.2, pp.37476)

The other two pathologists, Dr J. Thornton Boswell (ibid., p.377) and Dr Pierre Finck ("there are too many fragments": ibid., pp.381f), agreed with Dr Humes.

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All you accept his testimony on this, but believe his testimony false when he said that Kennedy was definitely shot in the head from behind and right?

That's what all conspiracy theorists have to do, pick and choose what to accept and what to reject, even when the physical evidence backs it up.

We should note that this pathologist did not examine the Governor's wounds.

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That's what all conspiracy theorists have to do, pick and choose what to accept and what to reject, even when the physical evidence backs it up.

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I could say the same thing to you. The Warren Report in particular is filled with evidence that both supports and contradicts its conclusions. I've only scratched the surface here. People who are skeptical have the advantage of looking at the evidence without this directive in mind:

http://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Katzenbach_Memo.html

Except you completely ignore the conclusions of everyone that conducted the autopsy that the headshot was from behind. That's not being skeptical, that is being an ostrich with its head in the sand.

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Except you completely ignore the conclusions of everyone that conducted the autopsy that the headshot was from behind. That's not being skeptical, that is being an ostrich with its head in the sand.

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And you are ignoring the statements from the doctors at Parkland who saw the back of his head blown out.

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That's what all conspiracy theorists have to do, pick and choose what to accept and what to reject, even when the physical evidence backs it up.

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I could say the same thing to you. The Warren Report in particular is filled with evidence that both supports and contradicts its conclusions. I've only scratched the surface here. People who are skeptical have the advantage of looking at the evidence without this directive in mind:

http://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Katzenbach_Memo.html

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Um.....not really. Looking at something with a healthy dose of skepticism is one thing. Conspiracy theorists are something else.

The conspiracy theorist throws crap against the wall and when someone comes along and point by point disproves their crap, they conveniently ignore that the points they've thrown out have been answered and dealt with, then loudly throw another load of crap at the wall, all the while yelling "well what about this? Well what about this?".

That's not skepticism; it's blatantly ignoring some facts, and clinging to anything that isn't perfectly explainable or at the very least perfectly explained to their liking. It's a never ending circle jerk and most of the time it lends itself towards some interesting/unique/strange personality traits. Thus they're stated as wearing tin foil hats.

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Except you completely ignore the conclusions of everyone that conducted the autopsy that the headshot was from behind. That's not being skeptical, that is being an ostrich with its head in the sand.

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And you are ignoring the statements from the doctors at Parkland who saw the back of his head blown out.

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You can easily find pictures of what his head looked like. The Parkland doctors were wrong. The back of his head was intact and there is photographic proof that they were wrong. In any event, the Parkland doctors didn't autopsy or probe the wound. They put a trach in the exit wound of his neck and admitted that there was nothing they could do for JFK from the moment they first saw him. A autopsy doctor that isn't in the ER stress environment can much more carefully examine the wound.

Did you read the Katzenbach memo I linked? 3 days after the assassination, the assistant attorney general writes a memo to LBJ's primary aide instructing him to make sure the public is convinced that Oswald was the lone assassin, something that no one could have known by that time, since no investigation had been done yet. And it's clear that this is what the Warren Commission did.

Look at the picture by Dale Myers, the dean of the single bullet theory, posted above. It shows the correct entrance in Kennedy's back. From that angle, the bullet would have exited his chest. A discovery channel special did the exact same thing and claimed it proved the SBT when in reality both did the exact opposite. Who is being credulous?

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You can easily find pictures of what his head looked like. The Parkland doctors were wrong. The back of his head was intact and there is photographic proof that they were wrong. In any event, the Parkland doctors didn't autopsy or probe the wound. They put a trach in the exit wound of his neck and admitted that there was nothing they could do for JFK from the moment they first saw him. A autopsy doctor that isn't in the ER stress environment can much more carefully examine the wound.

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There was a flap of scalp that was pulled over the hole. This is in the testimony of one of the doctors. You can see him holding the scalp over it in this picture:

McClelland said part of the cerebellum fell out the back while they were doing the tracheotomy. Crenshaw has a whole book about it. You can find it on amazon.

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Did you read the Katzenbach memo I linked? 3 days after the assassination, the assistant attorney general writes a memo to LBJ's primary aide instructing him to make sure the public is convinced that Oswald was the lone assassin, something that no one could have known by that time, since no investigation had been done yet. And it's clear that this is what the Warren Commission did.

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So did this memo have any affect on the HSCA, who found that there was no credible link of the KGB, Soviets, Cubans, Anti-Cubans, Mafia, CIA, FBI or anyone else to Oswald in their independent investigation? Did the memo have any affect on them when they found that Oswald fired both shots that hit Kennedy from the 6th Floor of the TBD, and ruled out JFK or JC being hit by any other bullet?

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Look at the picture by Dale Myers, the dean of the single bullet theory, posted above. It shows the correct entrance in Kennedy's back. From that angle, the bullet would have exited his chest. A discovery channel special did the exact same thing and claimed it proved the SBT when in reality both did the exact opposite. Who is being credulous?

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Cropped down to be less macabre. The bullet wound in the back lines up with the exit wound through the windpipe and is up at an angle, even if he is sitting perfectly straight up, which he wasn't - he was leaning forward a bit. The known entrance wound and exit wound line up perfectly with a shot from behind and to the right.

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McClelland said part of the cerebellum fell out the back while they were doing the tracheotomy. Crenshaw has a whole book about it. You can find it on amazon.

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And the cop closest to Kennedy said that he saw Kennedy get shot in the face. Only he isn't right, either.

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So did this memo have any affect on the HSCA, who found that there was no credible link of the KGB, Soviets, Cubans, Anti-Cubans, Mafia, CIA, FBI or anyone else to Oswald in their independent investigation? Did the memo have any affect on them when they found that Oswald fired both shots that hit Kennedy from the 6th Floor of the TBD, and ruled out JFK or JC being hit by any other bullet?

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The HSCA report was largely Robert Blakey, and he clearly lied about some aspects, under pressure from the CIA. His staffers largely didn't agree with them. His staffer Eddie Lopez wrote the report I mentioned the other day in this thread, which does suggest links between Oswald and the CIA. His staffers also uncovered links between Oswald and anti-Castro Cubans. Gaeton Fonzi, one of the staffers, went on to write a great book about it, as did Robert Tannenbaum. Blakey later said there was a conspiracy and the mafia did it.

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So did this memo have any affect on the HSCA, who found that there was no credible link of the KGB, Soviets, Cubans, Anti-Cubans, Mafia, CIA, FBI or anyone else to Oswald in their independent investigation? Did the memo have any affect on them when they found that Oswald fired both shots that hit Kennedy from the 6th Floor of the TBD, and ruled out JFK or JC being hit by any other bullet?

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The HSCA report was largely Robert Blakey, and he clearly lied about some aspects, under pressure from the CIA. His staffers largely didn't agree with them. His staffer Eddie Lopez wrote the report I mentioned the other day in this thread, which does suggest links between Oswald and the CIA. His staffers also uncovered links between Oswald and anti-Castro Cubans. Gaeton Fonzi, one of the staffers, went on to write a great book about it, as did Robert Tannenbaum. Blakey later said there was a conspiracy and the mafia did it.

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You didn't answer my question.

Did the memo you referenced affect the HSCA in any way, shape or form?

Did it affect the Justice Department research that the HSCA suggested after their committee gave their report?

Guys give up. Cynic won't listen.
He was on the U-boat with me when we brought the Fuhrer to Argentina so he thinks he knows all the secrets.
But he couldn't handle the truth.

House committees consist of congressmen, who are generally idiots, liars, or both. House staffers are people like Hillary Clinton who worked for the Watergate Committee

You really want to base theories off what they say?

Fascinating thread...though the last page and a half has gotten rather cumbersome!

I was previously fairly naive on the South Texas politics behind LBJ's Senate election. I've always believed him to be a crook of the tallest order, and this is fascinating. Some quick reading on LBJ, Estes, Carter, Marshall, and Wallace -- all I can say is, Wow.