LBJ killed Kennedy

34,196 Views | 175 Replies | Last: 10 yr ago by Burdizzo
91AggieLawyer
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quote:
BUT on the other hand, if LHO was carrying "curtain rods" into the TSBD as he stated, where the hell are the curtain rods?

This is a red herring. Its doubtful LHO was truthful about much of what he said -- but could still have been truthful about being a patsy (or not). So, there are several possible explanations: 1) (as the WC concluded but that there was both no evidence for and contradictory evidence against) LHO carried a broken down Carcano; 2) it was curtain rods but they were put in a place where no one ever looked and someone disposed of later; 3) it was curtain rods but they were removed inadvertently; 4) it was curtain rods but they were removed by someone who didn't tell any investigators; 5) same as 4 but the investigators ignored the information; 6) he was carrying something else entirely that no one ever looked for or it was something they did find but didn't single out because they didn't connect the item to the phony curtain rods; 7) it was something he brought -- a gun, curtain rods, almost anything, that he gave to someone else before leaving the SBD.

There is no hard evidence for ANY of these conclusions. Only LHO and maybe a few others know for sure.
agforlife97
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So if LBJ was behind the assassination, why did he and his wife ride two cars behind JFK in the motorcade? Seems insane to knowingly put yourself in the line of fire.

Later in his life, LBJ was known to have said that he didn't believe that LHO was the lone assassin (like any other reasonable person who knew anything about it). He likely was terrified in the immediate aftermath, not knowing whether the assassination was a prelude to Armageddon or a coup d'etat by the military (or both).
jickyjack1
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Okay, I can't keep it a secret any longer; he did it.

But I've got to warn all you witness assassins: I've got a .22 in the house.
Guitarsoup
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Later in his life, LBJ was known to have said that he didn't believe that LHO was the lone assassin (like any other reasonable person who knew anything about it).

Except for the extreme lack of evidence of anything happening other than Oswald acting alone as the lone shooter.

The only reasonable belief is that Oswald did it alone. Any other belief requires huge leaps in logic and evidence.
agforlife97
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Later in his life, LBJ was known to have said that he didn't believe that LHO was the lone assassin (like any other reasonable person who knew anything about it).

Except for the extreme lack of evidence of anything happening other than Oswald acting alone as the lone shooter.

The only reasonable belief is that Oswald did it alone. Any other belief requires huge leaps in logic and evidence.
The evidence itself is the evidence against a lone assassin. The head of the CIA himself believed there were at least 2 assassins. This was likely after seeing the Zapruder film, which to any reasonable person proves that the fatal shot came from the front. Can you imagine what we'd think if this happened in the USSR, and they showed the world a film like the Zapruder film. with Pravda then claiming that there was a lone assassin and he fired from the back?

And the Zapruder film is just one of many massive holes in the lone assassin theory. Ever heard of CE399? The same type of round supposedly goes through a skull and shatters, but this bullet goes through 2 people causing 7 wounds and looks as if it were shot into cotton. The chain of custody on that bullet is also so f'ed up that it would have never even been admissible in court. How curious.

Plus tons of evidence uncovered in the last 20 years shows that someone likely impersonated Oswald in Mexico City in Sep-Oct 1963 to make it look like he was associating with a KGB assassin.

The HSCA itself concluded that there was a conspiracy, but blamed in on the mafia. Robert Blakey's staff almost uniformly thought they CIA did it, and had already prepared indictments for perjury for 2 CIA agents that the HSCA interviewed before it all got shut down.
Guitarsoup
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The evidence itself is the evidence against a lone assassin.

No it isn't. The evidence all points to a single lone assassin. There is conjecture and leaps of faith people make to justify that others were involved.

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The head of the CIA himself believed there were at least 2 assassins.
Who are you referring to? John McCone is who succeeded Dulles after the Bay of Pigs cluster and he was director of the CIA from two years before until two years after Kennedy was assassinated.


Because here is McCone's testimony under oath to the Warren Commission:

Mr. RANKIN. Have you determined whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald, the suspect in connection with the assassination of President Kennedy, had any connection with the Central Intelligence Agency, informer or indirectly as an employee, or any other capacity?
Mr. MCCONE. Yes: I have determined to my satisfaction that he had no such connection, and I would like to read for the record
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us briefly the extent of your inquiry?
Mr. MCCONE. In a form of affidavit, I have gone into the matter in considerable detail personally, in my inquiry with the appropriate people within the Agency, examined all records in our files relating to Lee Harvey Oswald. We had knowledge of him, of course, because of his having gone to the Soviet Union, as he did, putting him in a situation where his name would appear in our name file. However, my examination has resulted in the conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald was not an agent, employee, or informant of the Central Intelligence Agency. The Agency never contacted him, interviewed him, talked with him, or received or solicited any reports or information from him, or communicated with him directly or in any other manner. The Agency never furnished him with any funds or money or compensated him directly or indirectly in any fashion, and Lee Harvey Oswald was never associated or connected directly or indirectly in any way whatsoever with the &ZenCy. When I Use the term "Agency," I mean the Central Intelligence Agency, of course.

Mr. RANKIN.Mr. McCone, if I may return to you, I will now ask you if you have any credible information that you know of or evidence causing you to believe that there is any or was any conspiracy either domestic or foreign in connection with the assassination of President Kennedy?
MR. MCCONE. No; I have no information, Mr.Rankin, that would lead me to believe or conclude that a conspiracy existed.
Representative FORD. Did the CIA make an investigation of this aspect of the assassination?
Mr. MCCONE. We made an investigation of all developments after the assassination which came to our attention which might possibly have indicated a conspiracy, and we determined after these investigations, which were made promptly and immediately, that we had no evidence to support such an assumption.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you also include in your statement that you found no evidence of conspiracy in all of that investigation?
Mr. MCCONE. That is correct.

There you have it. Under oath, the Director of the CIA when JFK was assassinated (including the two years before and the two years after) says that he has zero evidence of a conspiracy. I look forward to a retort with some hearsay that he really believed differently than what he said under oath.



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This was likely after seeing the Zapruder film, which to any reasonable person proves that the fatal shot came from the front. Can you imagine what we'd think if this happened in the USSR, and they showed the world a film like the Zapruder film. with Pravda then claiming that there was a lone assassin and he fired from the back?

If you study the Zapruder film in depth, it really shows nothing conclusive of what you want it to show.




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And the Zapruder film is just one of many massive holes in the lone assassin theory.
It really isn't.



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Ever heard of CE399? The same type of round supposedly goes through a skull and shatters, but this bullet goes through 2 people causing 7 wounds and looks as if it were shot into cotton. The chain of custody on that bullet is also so f'ed up that it would have never even been admissible in court. How curious.


I'm fairly certain that everyone that has read even the smallest amount about the assassination has heard about the 'magic bullet.' When a bullet hits no hard objects head on like bone or concrete, it is quite easy for it to stay in tact. The bullet flattened on the side when making the chest injuries of the Governor because it started tumbling after it passed through JFK without impacting bone. There is not another logical way that Governor Connally's wounds could have been made, nor could JFK's neck wound have come from the front due to the angle of his body and the objects between him and where the bullet would have had to come from (namely Connally and the car.



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Plus tons of evidence uncovered in the last 20 years shows that someone likely impersonated Oswald in Mexico City in Sep-Oct 1963 to make it look like he was associating with a KGB assassin.
Are you going for a conspiracy where Oswald was in on it? Why would anyone use him as an assassin? A known radical that isn't very smart and is emotionally unstable that has tried to defect to the Soviets? That makes no sense. There is zero evidence that Oswald ever worked for the USSR or KGB. None. Here we are over 50 years later and not a single person has come forward with evidence that Oswald worked for the Soviet Union or KGB. We've had countless KGB and USSR defectors over the past 5 decades and not one brought any evidence of LHO working for them. But we have had many bring evidence of KGB Operation Dragon. Have you read that? The KGB put together a plan of misinformation surrounding the assassination so that Americans would be divided on who did it and many would believe that their own government killed Kennedy in an effort to create upheaval in America. The KGB wanted people like you to believe that someone other than Oswald did it.

If you think Oswald worked for the CIA, why would the CIA use someone that isn't very smart, is emotionally unstable, couldn't handle being a Marine. He was described as anti-social as early as elementary school, spent time in juvenile reformatories and was described by a shrink as having "schizoid features" as a middle schooler. Oswald dropped out of school in 10th grade, never finished and joined the Marines, where he was discharged after 2.5 years and multiple disciplinary infractions including accidentally shooting himself, fighting with a superior officer and firing his rifle into the jungle for no reason. Does Oswald really seem like CIA material? He was a **** up.

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The HSCA itself concluded that there was a conspiracy, but blamed in on the mafia. Robert Blakey's staff almost uniformly thought they CIA did it, and had already prepared indictments for perjury for 2 CIA agents that the HSCA interviewed before it all got shut down.
The HSCA was pretty much just created to prove a hypothesis that there was a conspiracy.

Their conclusion:
1. The HSCA did find that they believe that LHO fired three shots, the second one hitting JFK in the neck and the third one being the kill shot to the head. Oswald fired no more or less than three shots.

I couldn't agree more with this finding. This is what the evidence shows.

2. The HSCA believes there was 4 shots based on the acoustic dictabelt evidence.

The HSCA had composed a final draft of their findings stating that LHO acted alone when the dictabelt evidence was brought to them for analysis. In an interview with Dallas reporter Edward Golz, HSCA Chief Council G. Robert Blakey said in 1980 "If the acoustics come out that we made a mistake somewhere, I think that would end it."

The sole reason the HSCA found that it was more probable than not that there was a conspiracy was based solely on the dictabelt acoustics. Four of the 12 members of the committee believed that there was on conspiracy and a 5th believed that the dictabelt needed to be furthered studied.

In 1982, the National Academy of Science chaired by Harvard's Norman Ramsey studied the dictabelt and concluded that the dictabelt did not provide any basis for finding a 4th shot from the Grassy Knoll. You can read the NAS study for yourself here. http://www.nap.edu/catalog/10264/report-of-the-committee-on-ballistic-acoustics

So the HSCA's only evidence of conspiracy and the entire reason they said it was more probable than not that there was a conspiracy was the dictabelt evidence, and that evidence has since been discredited by many sources and is not considered credible

The committee also found:

The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Soviet Government was not involved in the assassination of Kennedy.

The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Cuban Government was not involved in the assassination of Kennedy.

The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that anti-Castro Cuban groups, as groups, were not involved in the assassination of Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.

The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the national syndicate of organized crime, as a group, was not involved in the assassination of Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.The Secret Service, Federal Bureau of Investigation, and Central Intelligence Agency were not involved in the assassination of Kennedy.

So again, they found no conspiracy whatsoever by any group, however, some members thought there was a conspiracy based on evidence that has since been debunked. Their own members told you that they believed if that dictabelt evidence was debunked, that it would show there was absolutely no conspiracy.

The HSCA also agreed with the single bullet theory - that a single bullet fired went through Kennedy's neck, tumbled and caused all the wounds to the Governor.


So there you go. Believe in a conspiracy all you want, but there is zero evidence that one existed and the only evidence that there was a 4th shot has since been completely discredited by the greatest scientists in the world.

There is simply no evidence to show that anything other happened other than Oswald acting alone from the 6th Floor of the Book Depository. And every credible investigation into the assassination has concluded that Oswald shot at the President three times with two direct hits.

The biggest problem with a conspiracy is how many people would have to be involved. Millions if not billions of dollars has been made talking about the assassination over the 52 years since. The evidence that Oswald was working for someone (Mafia, Soviets, Cubans, CIA, etc) would be worth tens of millions of dollars. But none of the people involved have come forward to cash in on that after all these years? Mark Felt came in to cash out on being Deep Throat at the end of his life. And if you were 38 at the time of the assassination, you would be 90 today. But not a single person has come forward with evidence of any sort of conspiracy to write a book and sell their story to Hollywood and cash in on their knowledge so that their family could be provided for for generations.
The Ragonk Strikes Back
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quote:

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Later in his life, LBJ was known to have said that he didn't believe that LHO was the lone assassin (like any other reasonable person who knew anything about it).

Except for the extreme lack of evidence of anything happening other than Oswald acting alone as the lone shooter.

The only reasonable belief is that Oswald did it alone. Any other belief requires huge leaps in logic and evidence.
BQ78
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Cynic:

When did belief become evidence? Based on that there is no doubt that God exists.
agforlife97
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http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/quote/rfk-cia-director-said-two-people-involved-in-jfk-shooting/#comments



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I look forward to a retort with some hearsay that he really believed differently than what he said under oath.

Well, HSCA staffers prepared indictments for perjury for CIA agents Ann Goodpasture and David Phillips. Both were caught red handed lying to the committee multiple times.
agforlife97
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http://mentalfloss.com/article/59985/11-dramatic-photos-world-war-i

Look at the photo entitled "A French soldier is shot during a counterattack at Verdun." This man was running forward and shot from the front with a similar rifle to the MC 6.5 MM and he is hurled violently backward. No reasonable person can believe that a man shot from behind will lurch violently backward toward the shooter.
agforlife97
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There is not another logical way that Governor Connally's wounds could have been made

The logical fallacy here is you are assuming only one shooter. I don't doubt frankly that Oswald shot Connally or that one bullet caused all his particular wounds. I just don't believe it was CE399 and I don't believe the same bullet passed through Kennedy. Neither did James Sibert, an FBI agent who attended the autopsy. He has stated many times that the back wound was too low and was not a "through and through" wound in any case. The neck shot probably came from the front and was a frangible round just like the fatal head shot.
agforlife97
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Are you going for a conspiracy where Oswald was in on it?

Perhaps Oswald didn't even know there were going to be multiple shooters. This is the hypothesis of numerous novels, such as Don DeLilo's "Libra." I doubt anyone alive today knows. I certainly don't.
agforlife97
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So there you go. Believe in a conspiracy all you want, but there is zero evidence that one existed

This is preposterous. The McCone thing alone is "some evidence." There are hundreds of other data points. And I noticed how you totally ignored the evidence that Oswald was impersonated in Mexico City. To me this is some of the strongest, perhaps the strongest evidence of not only a conspiracy, but the fact that elements of the CIA were behind the conspiracy. HSCA staffers certainly believed this, and still do (Check out Robert Tannenbaum's novel, "Corruption of Blood" for example).

On Oswald being an agent of the CIA, HSCA staffers also likely believed this to be true. There was a section of the Lopez report (http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=799), which discussed this point, which was classified and has never seen the light of day. Wonder why if there's nothing to hide?
Guitarsoup
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http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/quote/rfk-cia-director-said-two-people-involved-in-jfk-shooting/#comments



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I look forward to a retort with some hearsay that he really believed differently than what he said under oath.

Well, HSCA staffers prepared indictments for perjury for CIA agents Ann Goodpasture and David Phillips. Both were caught red handed lying to the committee multiple times.
That's nice, but it has nothing to do with McCone. Third or fourth hand "McCone really believed X" doesn't have quite as much weight as McCone's testimony under oath.

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http://mentalfloss.com/article/59985/11-dramatic-photos-world-war-i

Look at the photo entitled "A French soldier is shot during a counterattack at Verdun." This man was running forward and shot from the front with a similar rifle to the MC 6.5 MM and he is hurled violently backward. No reasonable person can believe that a man shot from behind will lurch violently backward toward the shooter.
Source that that particular Frenchman was shot with a 6.5mm bolt action rifle in WWI and that is what is depicted in that picture? The Battle of Verdun is known for heavy artillery, machine guns and gas attacks, not really for snipers.

You should probably know that a .50 caliber bullet doesn't have the momentum to violently knock a person backwards. That whole Newton's 3rd Law thing.

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There is not another logical way that Governor Connally's wounds could have been made

The logical fallacy here is you are assuming only one shooter. I don't doubt frankly that Oswald shot Connally or that one bullet caused all his particular wounds. I just don't believe it was CE399 and I don't believe the same bullet passed through Kennedy. Neither did James Sibert, an FBI agent who attended the autopsy. He has stated many times that the back wound was too low and was not a "through and through" wound in any case.

I'm not assuming only one shooter. All evidence ever collected says there is one shooter. That is the conclusion after a careful examination of all evidence. Both the Warren Commission and the HSCA both concluded that JFK and JC were hit by the same bullet and a second bullet was the headshot. The HSCA concluded there was a second shooter that fired one shot that didn't hit anything and was never found. Of course, the sole piece of evidence they based that on was later scientifically proven false.

If I had seen CE399 without knowing the subsequent ballistics tests, I too would have never thought that a bullet like that could have caused that damage without much change to the tip and only really being flattened on one side. Unfortunately, Sibert didn't have the benefit that we have in 50 years of ballistics tests that have shown how a tumbling bullet striking JC vertically rather than on the tip could have caused that much damage while only flattening the side of the bullet.

You know Sibert also reported that the headshot came from a single shot from behind the President and that both bullets that struck the President were from behind? The pathologist didn't know that the trach hole was made where the bullet exited, and assumed that it never exited, which is what Sibert wrote in his report. Sibert also wrote in his autopsy report that none of the conclusions in his report were his.

Obviously as the Governor was still alive, there was no autopsy of him. Sibert was not a medical professional and his report is the word of the pathologist, that did not think the first bullet exited because he didn't know the trach wound was actually the exit wound. But really? A 6.5mm rifle shot that doesn't hit any bone and doesn't exit the body? Yeah, pretty sure that's impossible.


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The neck shot probably came from the front and was a frangible round just like the fatal head shot.
Ahh, going with the "there is absolutely no evidence to support my position, so I am going to say it was with a magic disappearing bullet." Why not blame an ice bullet like pathologist James Hume? I mean, other than the fact that they are physically impossible, of course.

There is no probably with your scenario. In fact, all evidence we have says that your scenario is extremely unlikely.

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Are you going for a conspiracy where Oswald was in on it?

Perhaps Oswald didn't even know there were going to be multiple shooters. This is the hypothesis of numerous novels, such as Don DeLilo's "Libra." I doubt anyone alive today knows. I certainly don't.

And yet, everyone took it to their graves, despite the millions and millions of dollars to be had by exposing a conspiracy in the president's assassination? Not very likely.



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So there you go. Believe in a conspiracy all you want, but there is zero evidence that one existed

This is preposterous. The McCone thing alone is "some evidence."
No, the McCone thing is 3rd hand hearsay. It is not evidence. I have never seen evidence that McCone thought that there were two shooters other than someone saying that a dead man said it about another dead man. Interesting that that hearsay never came to light until years after McCone and RFK were both dead and neither could counter it.



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There are hundreds of other data points.
No, there aren't. The fact that both the HSCA (that specifically formed to find a conspiracy) and the Warren Commission both found that all wounds by JFK were caused by three shots fired by Oswald [one of which missed] shows where the evidence is. Neither could find any evidence whatsoever that the FBI, CIA, KGB, Fidel Castro or anyone other than Lee Harvey Oswald was involved.


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And I noticed how you totally ignored the evidence that Oswald was impersonated in Mexico City. To me this is some of the strongest, perhaps the strongest evidence of not only a conspiracy, but the fact that elements of the CIA were behind the conspiracy. HSCA staffers certainly believed this, and still do (Check out Robert Tannenbaum's novel, "Corruption of Blood" for example).
Do you want me to go over all the things you conveniently ignored? I'll come back around to the Mexico City debacle later when I have more time. The truth is that we know far less about the Mexico City visit than anything else, and that is why so many conspiracy nuts hone in on it.


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On Oswald being an agent of the CIA, HSCA staffers also likely believed this to be true.
The HSCA specifically found that [p97]:

As will be detailed in succeeding sections of this report, the committee did not find sufficient evidence that any of these groups or organizations were involved in a conspiracy in the Kennedy assassination. Accordingly, the committee concluded, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Soviet government, the Cuban government, anti-Castro Cuban groups, and the national syndicate of organized crime were not involved in the assassination. Further, the committee found that the Secret Service, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and the Central Intelligence Agency were not involved in the assassination.

So yeah, the HSCA specifically said they found no evidence that the KGB, Cubans, Anti-Cubans, the Mafia, the FBI, the Secret Service and the CIA were not involved. If they had found that Oswald was an agent of the CIA, then they would be involved.

But again, that goes back to: why would the CIA use a **** up like LHO? He was a 10th grade drop out. He wasn't intelligent. He spent nearly 3 years in the USSR and still couldn't speak the language well. He was a **** up in the Marines and didn't even last until his 20th birthday before being discharged. He was known to be volatile and easily unhinged. He attempted suicide and spent time in a psycho ward. He tried to renounce his citizenship, but then after a couple years of realizing how much communism sucked, he came crawling back and begged the embassy for money to go home. Why would the CIA, FBI, KGB or any other intelligence service want a **** up like that?


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There was a section of the Lopez report (http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=799), which discussed this point, which was classified and has never seen the light of day. Wonder why if there's nothing to hide?
What specific part of the Lopez report are you referring to?

The only thing I know of referring to Oswald even meeting with the CIA is the anti-Castro hitman wannabe Vecana saying he met with Oswald along with a CIA agent, who was operating under an alias. That meeting cannot be confirmed and there is no evidence of it ever taking place. It also wasn't in Mexico, which is what the Lopez report is about. Of course, Vecana never made this claim until over a decade later.

The thing to hide is this:

In December 1960, Oswald sent a letter to the US Embassy begging to be repatriated. The KGB intercepted this letter and never sent it to the US Embassy. So this file would show if the CIA knew of Oswald's letter. If they did, it means they had a double agent in the KGB that fed them that information and it would expose their double agent. As the HSCA investigated this at the height of the Cold War, it would probably be nice of the CIA not to give up their double agent in the KGB and show that Oswald wanted out of the USSR two years before he actually got out. That's a pretty good reason to not give up all the files the CIA had on Oswald.

When the HSCA was finished, they asked the Dept of Justice to further investigate. And the DOJ did. The DOJ's findings:



  • Accordingly, the Department of Justice has concluded that no persuasive evidence can be identified to support the theory of a conspiracy in either the assassination of President Kennedy or the assassination of Dr. King. No further investigation appears to be warranted in either matter unless new information which is sufficient to support additional investigative activity becomes available. While this report is intended to "close" the Department's formal response to the Select Committee final report, it is the Department's intention to continue to review all correspondence and to investigate, as appropriate, any potentially productive information.


But hey, all three major inquiries into the assassination could find no evidence of a conspiracy. That's just a conspiracy, too, right?
agforlife97
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That's nice, but it has nothing to do with McCone. Third or fourth hand "McCone really believed X" doesn't have quite as much weight as McCone's testimony under oath.

The point is that people from the CIA repeatedly lied under oath. What people said privately is probably more probative. RFK made statements supporting the lone shooter theory publicly, but it's clear now that he never believed it, and even got word to the Soviets that he believed JFK was killed by domestic enemies. There were many, many other insiders who believed there were more than one shooter too.
agforlife97
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Source that that particular Frenchman was shot with a 6.5mm bolt action rifle in WWI and that is what is depicted in that picture? The Battle of Verdun is known for heavy artillery, machine guns and gas attacks, not really for snipers.

You should probably know that a .50 caliber bullet doesn't have the momentum to violently knock a person backwards. That whole Newton's 3rd Law thing.


Well, if it was the battle of Verdun, he was likely shot with a Mauser which is very similar to a MC 6.5 mm. There doesn't appear to be an artillery shell exploding nearby either. Every caption I've ever seen on this picture says the soldier was shot, and it certainly looks that way. He could have been hit by a machine gun I guess, but it looks like he's only hit with one round. Can you show a picture of someone being shot where the person "recoils" violently into the direction of the shooter?
Guitarsoup
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That's nice, but it has nothing to do with McCone. Third or fourth hand "McCone really believed X" doesn't have quite as much weight as McCone's testimony under oath.

The point is that people from the CIA repeatedly lied under oath. What people said privately is probably more probative. RFK made statements supporting the lone shooter theory publicly, but it's clear now that he never believed it, and even got word to the Soviets that he believed JFK was killed by domestic enemies. There were many, many other insiders who believed there were more than one shooter too.


That one or two people may or may not have lied has zero bearing on the truthfulness of an unrelated person and is certifiably not evidence of such.
Guitarsoup
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Source that that particular Frenchman was shot with a 6.5mm bolt action rifle in WWI and that is what is depicted in that picture? The Battle of Verdun is known for heavy artillery, machine guns and gas attacks, not really for snipers.

You should probably know that a .50 caliber bullet doesn't have the momentum to violently knock a person backwards. That whole Newton's 3rd Law thing.


Well, if it was the battle of Verdun, he was likely shot with a Mauser which is very similar to a MC 6.5 mm. There doesn't appear to be an artillery shell exploding nearby either. Every caption I've ever seen on this picture says the soldier was shot, and it certainly looks that way. He could have been hit by a machine gun I guess, but it looks like he's only hit with one round. Can you show a picture of someone being shot where the person "recoils" violently into the direction of the shooter?


Of you look back and to the left (see what I did there) of the guy, it looks like a string of shots on the ground. Probably a machine gun. In any event, you are using a pic that has nothing to do with this assassination that does not show what you want it to show.

And Newton's third law says that no one is violently knocked back by a bullet, just like the guy shooting it is not violently knocked back.
agforlife97
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I'm not assuming only one shooter. All evidence ever collected says there is one shooter. That is the conclusion after a careful examination of all evidence. Both the Warren Commission and the HSCA both concluded that JFK and JC were hit by the same bullet and a second bullet was the headshot. The HSCA concluded there was a second shooter that fired one shot that didn't hit anything and was never found. Of course, the sole piece of evidence they based that on was later scientifically proven false.

If I had seen CE399 without knowing the subsequent ballistics tests, I too would have never thought that a bullet like that could have caused that damage without much change to the tip and only really being flattened on one side. Unfortunately, Sibert didn't have the benefit that we have in 50 years of ballistics tests that have shown how a tumbling bullet striking JC vertically rather than on the tip could have caused that much damage while only flattening the side of the bullet.

You know Sibert also reported that the headshot came from a single shot from behind the President and that both bullets that struck the President were from behind? The pathologist didn't know that the trach hole was made where the bullet exited, and assumed that it never exited, which is what Sibert wrote in his report. Sibert also wrote in his autopsy report that none of the conclusions in his report were his.

Obviously as the Governor was still alive, there was no autopsy of him. Sibert was not a medical professional and his report is the word of the pathologist, that did not think the first bullet exited because he didn't know the trach wound was actually the exit wound. But really? A 6.5mm rifle shot that doesn't hit any bone and doesn't exit the body? Yeah, pretty sure that's impossible.


You're trying to explain the wounds assuming one shooter. It's a lot easier to explain the wounds when you assume more than one. And not all the evidence collected says one shooter. Over 50 people heard a shot from the knoll, including 20 police officers, some of whom had been in combat. Doctors on the scene described the neck wound as an entrance wound and a large exit wound in the back of the head.

Sibert believed the "3 shots from behind" theory at that time because he didn't know yet that one shot totally missed. He is on record after that as not believing the single bullet theory.
Guitarsoup
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I'm not assuming only one shooter. All evidence ever collected says there is one shooter. That is the conclusion after a careful examination of all evidence. Both the Warren Commission and the HSCA both concluded that JFK and JC were hit by the same bullet and a second bullet was the headshot. The HSCA concluded there was a second shooter that fired one shot that didn't hit anything and was never found. Of course, the sole piece of evidence they based that on was later scientifically proven false.

If I had seen CE399 without knowing the subsequent ballistics tests, I too would have never thought that a bullet like that could have caused that damage without much change to the tip and only really being flattened on one side. Unfortunately, Sibert didn't have the benefit that we have in 50 years of ballistics tests that have shown how a tumbling bullet striking JC vertically rather than on the tip could have caused that much damage while only flattening the side of the bullet.

You know Sibert also reported that the headshot came from a single shot from behind the President and that both bullets that struck the President were from behind? The pathologist didn't know that the trach hole was made where the bullet exited, and assumed that it never exited, which is what Sibert wrote in his report. Sibert also wrote in his autopsy report that none of the conclusions in his report were his.

Obviously as the Governor was still alive, there was no autopsy of him. Sibert was not a medical professional and his report is the word of the pathologist, that did not think the first bullet exited because he didn't know the trach wound was actually the exit wound. But really? A 6.5mm rifle shot that doesn't hit any bone and doesn't exit the body? Yeah, pretty sure that's impossible.


You're trying to explain the wounds assuming one shooter. It's a lot easier to explain the wounds when you assume more than one. And not all the evidence collected says one shooter. Over 50 people heard a shot from the knoll, including 20 police officers, some of whom had been in combat. Doctors on the scene described the neck wound as an entrance wound and a large exit wound in the back of the head.

Sibert believed the "3 shots from behind" theory at that time because he didn't know yet that one shot totally missed. He is on record after that as not believing the single bullet theory.



Eyewitness testimony is the least accurate "evidence". There is no physical evidence that there was a second shooter from any location. In fifty two years, they have yet to find a single shred of evidence. All bullet fragments found can be traced to Oswald gun or is consistent with Oswald gun.

I'm not assuming only one shooter. There pathologist that conducted the autopsy found it conclusive the head shot came from behind. That is the evidence.
agforlife97
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What specific part of the Lopez report are you referring to?

The only thing I know of referring to Oswald even meeting with the CIA is the anti-Castro hitman wannabe Vecana saying he met with Oswald along with a CIA agent, who was operating under an alias. That meeting cannot be confirmed and there is no evidence of it ever taking place. It also wasn't in Mexico, which is what the Lopez report is about. Of course, Vecana never made this claim until over a decade later.

The Lopez report makes an internal reference to a section entitled "Was Oswald a CIA agent?" It's around page 155 of the link I linked above. That section was classified according to Lopez but he has privately told many people that he had uncovered a lot of evidence suggesting Oswald was an intelligence agent.

Veciana not only said that, but named the agent as David Phillips, the guy that Lopez wanted to indict for perjury.

Robert Tannenbaum of the HSCA apparently uncovered an 8MM film showing Oswald at an anti-Castro training camp. Also appearing in the film was David Phillips. Someone broke into Tannenbaum's office and stole it, though numerous staffers of the HSCA confirmed that they saw the film.

I certainly don't claim to know exactly what happened, but to claim there is no evidence of a conspiracy is just ridiculous at this point.
Guitarsoup
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Lack of evidence is not evidence of a conspiracy. We don't know a lot of things, especially about Mexico. That isn't evidence of a conspiracy.
agforlife97
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Of you look back and to the left (see what I did there) of the guy, it looks like a string of shots on the ground. Probably a machine gun. In any event, you are using a pic that has nothing to do with this assassination that does not show what you want it to show.

And Newton's third law says that no one is violently knocked back by a bullet, just like the guy shooting it is not violently knocked back.

I referred to this picture to demonstrate the impossibility of a shot from behind causing someone to lurch in the direction of the shot. The picture shows the guy being violently thrown back in the opposite direction he's running in after being shot by someone in front of him. And when you shoot a gun, it kicks and knocks your shoulder back in the direction of the recoil - it's directly analogous to someone being shot from the front and then being jolted violently backward.
agforlife97
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Lack of evidence is not evidence of a conspiracy. We don't know a lot of things, especially about Mexico. That isn't evidence of a conspiracy.
There is direct evidence that someone impersonated Oswald while he was supposedly in Mexico City. This is strong evidence not only of a conspiracy but that elements of the CIA were involved.

Also, the CIA had 10 chances according to the phone tap transcripts to photograph Oswald going in and out of the USSR and Cuban embassies in Mexico City. They produced not one photograph, which surely they would have if they had one. Ann Goodpasture and David Phillips both lied under oath about this, with Phillips claiming the cameras weren't working on the dates in question. This was proved false, and was listed in his perjury indictment (which never saw the light of day). Goodpasture denied that she was in charge of the photograph operation under oath, and this was proven false by her performance evaluation, which listed that as one of her job responsibilities.
agforlife97
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Eyewitness testimony is the least accurate "evidence". There is no physical evidence that there was a second shooter from any location. In fifty two years, they have yet to find a single shred of evidence. All bullet fragments found can be traced to Oswald gun or is consistent with Oswald gun.

I'm not assuming only one shooter. There pathologist that conducted the autopsy found it conclusive the head shot came from behind. That is the evidence.



I'm not even really denying that eyewitness testimony sometimes isn't accurate. But if 20 police officers were to testify that something happened in court, it happened.

You are assuming one shooter. Numerous doctors at Parkland reported wounds consistent with a frontal shot. These guys knew bullet trauma too, unlike the military guys that conducted the autopsy.
Guitarsoup
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Of you look back and to the left (see what I did there) of the guy, it looks like a string of shots on the ground. Probably a machine gun. In any event, you are using a pic that has nothing to do with this assassination that does not show what you want it to show.

And Newton's third law says that no one is violently knocked back by a bullet, just like the guy shooting it is not violently knocked back.

I referred to this picture to demonstrate the impossibility of a shot from behind causing someone to lurch in the direction of the shot. The picture shows the guy being violently thrown back in the opposite direction he's running in after being shot by someone in front of him. And when you shoot a gun, it kicks and knocks your shoulder back in the direction of the recoil - it's directly analogous to someone being shot from the front and then being jolted violently backward.


Would and ballistics expert Alfred Olivier:
. Well, the President in 313, the head appears to have moved slightly forward from the previous frame. Now, I say appears, because unless you measured this precisely you don't know. But it appears to have moved slightly.
And this would not be inconsistent with the momentum of the bullet being transferred to the head. Whereas I said a bullet cannot knock a person down or move a body in any violent way, it could conceivably move the head a little bit. We fired at human skulls filled with gelatin sitting on the table, and they would roll off the table. And this apparent side movement of the head is in the correct direction if the bullet came from the book depository.

Q. Now, then, what can you tell us with respect to the subsequent action of the President's head and body after that initial apparent slight movement forward?
A. There could be two reasons for it. One reason, there is a jet of blood and brain material from the head, some bone seemed to fly up in the air, but the bulk of it appears to fly forward and maybe slightly to the right. This gives an indication that that is possibly in the direction that the bullet exited from the skull.

Now, most of the movement you see of the President moving backwards and his body moving sideward I believe is a neuromuscular reaction.
Another factor that could be involved is acceleration of the car. I have no idea of when the car started to accelerate. But at any rate, it is typical of animals or humans struck on the head to have a violent muscular reaction to it. And this is what is appears to me. Certainly the bullet didn't knock him backwards and sideways. This was, I think a neuromuscular reaction.
agforlife97
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Now, most of the movement you see of the President moving backwards and his body moving sideward I believe is a neuromuscular reaction.
Another factor that could be involved is acceleration of the car. I have no idea of when the car started to accelerate. But at any rate, it is typical of animals or humans struck on the head to have a violent muscular reaction to it. And this is what is appears to me. Certainly the bullet didn't knock him backwards and sideways. This was, I think a neuromuscular reaction.


So if the assassination happened one billion times, I'm sure a neuromuscular reaction might be possible one of those times. Is this the easiest and most likely explanation though? This person is just feeding the questioner what he wants in response to a leading question.

Blood and bone matter hit the motorcycle police officer on the back driver's side of the car. The wind was out of the south, blowing toward the knoll (you can clearly see this in pics with the way women's dresses are moving). The simplest explanation is that a force acting from the front caused that matter to move against the wind in that direction.
Guitarsoup
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Now, most of the movement you see of the President moving backwards and his body moving sideward I believe is a neuromuscular reaction.
Another factor that could be involved is acceleration of the car. I have no idea of when the car started to accelerate. But at any rate, it is typical of animals or humans struck on the head to have a violent muscular reaction to it. And this is what is appears to me. Certainly the bullet didn't knock him backwards and sideways. This was, I think a neuromuscular reaction.


So if the assassination happened one billion times, I'm sure a neuromuscular reaction might be possible one of those times. Is this the easiest and most likely explanation though? This person is just feeding the questioner what he wants in response to a leading question.

Blood and bone matter hit the motorcycle police officer on the back driver's side of the car. The wind was out of the south, blowing toward the knoll (you can clearly see this in pics with the way women's dresses are moving). The simplest explanation is that a force acting from the front caused that matter to move against the wind in that direction.


If the vehicles were not in motion, you would have a point. But they were. Go drive and throw some help out of the sunroof and see what the people behind you say.
CanyonAg77
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A shot in the brain, the simplest explanation is a nerve/muscle reaction.

A person being thrown backwards by a bullet from the front is pure Hollywood. If a bullet had that kind of force, how in heck would someone shooting a pistol be able to hold it one-handed.

Simple physics.
SRBS
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You might as well give up. He's not listening
agforlife97
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If the vehicles were not in motion, you would have a point. But they were. Go drive and throw some help out of the sunroof and see what the people behind you say.



You are still talking about a force acting at 1700 fps vs. a car moving at less than 15 mph. Even if the motion of the car would cause the matter to go back, going back left is still against the wind.
agforlife97
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You might as well give up. He's not listening
Yeah, you're probably right.
CanyonAg77
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You are still talking about a force acting at 1700 fps vs. a car moving at less than 15 mph. Even if the motion of the car would cause the matter to go back, going back left is still against the wind.

1700 feet per second x .363 ounces = 38.5 foot pounds second

Car at 5000 pounds, 22 feet per second = 110,000 foot pounds per second

My math/physics may be all screwed up, but a bullet weigh less than 1/3 of an ounce hasn't any chance against a 2.5 ton car, regardless of speeds. At least normal, earth-bound speeds.

Guitarsoup
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If the vehicles were not in motion, you would have a point. But they were. Go drive and throw some help out of the sunroof and see what the people behind you say.



You are still talking about a force acting at 1700 fps vs. a car moving at less than 15 mph. Even if the motion of the car would cause the matter to go back, going back left is still against the wind.


The bullet weighted like ten grams. It didn't have the weight to cause lots of force to move someone. A .50 cal sniper round doesn't have the force to really move someone.
Guitarsoup
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To better understand the force of the bullet, myth busters did a segment trying different types of guns including a shot gun at close range with a slug. All fired at a pig barely balanced on a piece of metal. Bullets don't knock the pig down, they rip through the pig. Check it out.
 
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