Haha I weighed 210 there. Getting small to get fast. It's all for Leadville. I attempted it at 195 and mountain climbing at that weight sucked. I will be 175 when I run Leadville a year from now. Once I finish Leadville Idgaf what I weigh.

I bench 250 currently, started back in Feb so I have a lot of time to improve.

By the way, it's NOT true that you need to be in a caloric surplus to build muscle. You need energy, yes, but you don't need to get it from food. Unless you are super lean, you can derive the necessary energy from existing fat stores.

There's research showing that you can still gain muscle while eating at maintenance or even at a deficit (~250-500 calories) as long as protein (and training) is adequate.

For a little bit early on, for returning lifters, or overweight people. Maybe. But long term. No. This is terrible advice for most people. It's had dudes spinning their wheels for years.

This is what the current science actually supports.

JeremiahJohnson said:

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Haha I weighed 210 there. Getting small to get fast. It's all for Leadville. I attempted it at 195 and mountain climbing at that weight sucked. I will be 175 when I run Leadville a year from now. Once I finish Leadville Idgaf what I weigh.

I bench 250 currently, started back in Feb so I have a lot of time to improve.

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That is a real effing race right there. No wonder you don't want to gain an ounce. Makes total sense.

That 250 is better than I was expecting truth be told. (A 300 lbs bench at 175 is an elite lift). We all pale in comparison to ttha though.

Tex117 said:

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This is what the current science actually supports.

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This is the most recent, I believe:

Link

Comparison of two nutritional protocols in body re-composition of resistance-trained participants.
Vargas-Molina S, Garca-Palumbo A, Garca-Sillero M, Bonilla DA, Petro JL, Aragon AA, Schoenfeld BJ, Bentez-Porres J.
Eur J Appl Physiol. 2026 Apr 6. doi: 10.1007/s00421-026-06209-6. Epub ahead of print.
PMID: 41940947.

"Trained" lifters (1.5+ years experience) for 10 weeks.

Take that as you will.

AggieLAX said:

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Tex117 said:

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This is what the current science actually supports.

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This is the most recent, I believe:

Link

Comparison of two nutritional protocols in body re-composition of resistance-trained participants.
Vargas-Molina S, Garca-Palumbo A, Garca-Sillero M, Bonilla DA, Petro JL, Aragon AA, Schoenfeld BJ, Bentez-Porres J.
Eur J Appl Physiol. 2026 Apr 6. doi: 10.1007/s00421-026-06209-6. Epub ahead of print.
PMID: 41940947.

"Trained" lifters (1.5+ years experience) for 10 weeks.

Take that as you will.

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From claude

Barakat, C., Pearson, J., Escalante, G., Campbell, B., & De Souza, E. O. (2020). "Body Recomposition: Can Trained Individuals Build Muscle and Lose Fat at the Same Time?" Strength & Conditioning Journal, 42(5), 721. This is the systematic review underpinning most of what I said. It concluded that recomposition is most robustly demonstrated in previously untrained individuals, and it's the standard citation for the point that novices, returnees, and higher-body-fat individuals are where the effect is real. It also notes that consistently low-calorie dieting produces a hormonal environment not well suited to building musclewhich is the mechanism behind my claim about trained, lean lifters.

The frequently-cited RCT

Longland, T. M., Oikawa, S. Y., Mitchell, C. J., Devries, M. C., & Phillips, S. M. (2016). "Higher compared with lower dietary protein during an energy deficit combined with intense exercise promotes greater lean mass gain and fat mass loss: a randomized trial." American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 103(3), 738746. DOI: 10.3945/ajcn.115.119339.

This is the study people cite to prove muscle gain in a deficit, so read it carefully. Forty overweight young men ran a 40 percent calorie deficit for four weeks while lifting and sprinting six days a week; the high-protein group (2.4 g/kg/day) gained 1.2 kg of lean mass and lost 4.8 kg of fat, while the lower-protein group (1.2 g/kg/day) held its lean mass and lost 3.5 kg.

The caveat that matters: the subjects were overweight and undergoing hard training, described by the senior investigator as "a gruelling affair". That is precisely the untrained-plus-higher-body-fat population where recomp works. It does not demonstrate that a lean, experienced lifter can do the same. It's often misread as a general proof; it isn't. It also ran only four weeks, and the authors acknowledged the diets differed in fat content too, so protein can't be cleanly isolated as the sole cause.

Protein intake range

The 1.62.2 g/kg figure traces to Morton et al. (2018), a meta-analysis in British Journal of Sports Medicine (52(6), 376384), which found resistance-training protein benefits plateauing around 1.6 g/kg. The higher end in a deficit is supported by Helms et al. (2014), "Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding contest preparation," Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition, 11:20. I cited these from memory rather than re-pulling them, so verify before relying on the exact numbers.

One honest note on source quality: the Barakat review is a narrative/systematic review, not a meta-analysis, and much of the trained-individual recomposition evidence within it comes from studies with methodological limits (DXA measurement error, short durations, no true untrained-lean-versus-trained-lean comparison). The direction of the evidence is solid; the precision is not. The literature genuinely does not contain a clean RCT showing appreciable hypertrophy in lean, advanced lifters in a deficitwhich is itself informative.

You can get there with dedication using Tactical Barbell. I'm going on a very consistent 10 years. I have an office job and a teen and tween. The beauty is the efficiency. I'm not saying there aren't better programs. I'm certain there are. This one just works perfectly for me based on my time, access, and interests.

Regarding bench, I went from 245 to 315 on bench while maintaining 167 +/-7 lbs. My "fighting" weight is 165 (I'm 5'9"). As prefaced before, I don't do marathons or ultras. But I'm never more than two weeks away from going sub 60 400m or running a half marathon all year long. My standard run is a 10k. I turned 40 this year.

My typical year loosely looks like this:

Winter: Maximum strength focus. Long nights, so I don't mind being in the garage more often. (Usually up to 170-173 by February).

Spring: Body composition focus. Get trimmed for anniversary trip and summer. (Goal is 160, a typical year I finish cutting in May around 162-163.)

Summer: Aerobic capacity focus. I go "green" with more time for endurance but I don't worry about calories. (Usually go into hunting season at 165).

Fall: Hunting season. I typically will only average 5 days per week with a nice balance of strength and high intensity cardio. Long steady state (my standard 10k) will only be once a week. (I try to stay 164-168 before the holidays).

Quote:

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Regarding bench, I went from 245 to 315 on bench while maintaining 167 +/-7 lbs. My "fighting" weight is 165 (I'm 5'9").

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Very impressive!

I feel you on hunting season... between way less sleep, usually 5 days and sometimes only 4 in the gym, I just hope to minimize strength losses and usually weight management... a lot of whataburger is consumed in the fall LOL

Always the short guys….

In the gym, the short dudes have tall guys nailed but for a few freakes of nature.


(Incredible work man)

I'm a nerd so most of that progression is documented. It's actually pretty interesting (to me) seeing the battle between weight gained/lost vs max strength.

Typically I don't post measurables online, but work is pretty slow this week.
I never focused on max bench, but I did always wonder if I could get to 300.

245, 164, 2/2017
265, 167, 7/2017
275, 164, 9/2017
290, 167, 1/2018
300, 163, 5/2018 (Failed)
300, 169, 3/2019
315, 174, 1/2020

You can see where my early gains were mostly CNS adaptations. From there it was a battle between muscle gained and fat lost. Once I hit 315 I stopped progression. Mostly trying to maintain that level of strength while cutting. I matched 315 at 168 this year.

Eating definitely helps!

That's awesome. Great work

Tex117 said:

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Always the short guys….

In the gym, the short dudes have tall guys nailed but for a few freakes of nature.


(Incredible work man)

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It's true. That's why I have to work my ass off though, to keep up with the long legged dudes in the mountains.

Ha. You are carrying those dudes up the mountain!

Tex117 said:

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JeremiahJohnson said:

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Volume is pretty light right now so this is my strength stage. I am 40 and 6ft 185. The heavier i get, the slower I am. So i want to stay in this range. Likewise the smaller i get, the weaker I am. If i keep up with protein i will gain muscle. I could lose 10 more lbs of body fat. I'm probably at 15-20%. I think 185 at 12-15% is sustainable.

I probably have different goals than 99% of people on here. Maybe some people call it hybrid, but just fit endurance athlete. I have a few friends that do both but not many.

I disagree 100% that you can't do both.

Did not know asking for a weight program would get a ton of people telling me I can't do it. I can and have. haha

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Re-read my last paragraph. I knew this was going to be your response. (And, please read this in all a fun and ribbing manner).

I can fully understand if you want to focus on endurance. You want to stay at that body weight. Its your body. Do whatever it is you want. BUT, you need to be clear eyed about what you results will be. No one is telling you that you can't do it. We are telling you that the goals you say you want will not be served by doing this. And, if you swing by the weightlifting thread, all of these posters are there and have spent years doing this. Not some yahoos who watched an Athlean X video.

You will not gain muscle by power chugging protein shakes and eating chicken breast lifting baby weight. You gain muscle by power chugging protein shakes, eating chicken breast, AND BEING IN A CALORIC SURPLUS AND LIFTING HEAVY. The laws of thermodynamics do not magically not apply to you.

You can disagree all you want. But science and data all point the other way. (But lots of fitness influencers can say you can do both. You cant. Its not metabolically possible, unless you augment with some serious drugs). Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it any less true. (Will you get a little change, sure, but nothing meaningful that changes the way you look).

If you are looking for modest neural adaptations for strength, yeah, you may get that. Maybe you put on a pound or two of muscle. But you are not going to magically recomp from 15-20% body fat into something 12-13% and stay the same weight.

ALSO, and here is something else to look at. You say you are in the 15%-20% body fat range. Don't guess. Get a DEXA scan. This will tell you where you are at both with lean body mass and body fat. This gives you a base line. Now you can actually track with certainty what's actually happening.

And another thing. You are likely undermuscled. If you are at that body fat, doing that kind of cardio, and not sub 15, it means you don't have enough muscle burning off your calories. I know, because I did this as well. I thought, I can just lift and cut. I did that. I cut to sub 10%, I looked like I had cancer.

Endurance athletes very rarely look strong and athletic. They look like sheet usually. (And for good reason, they need to be as light as possible). Sprinters and swimmers look awesome....wonder why that is....

In the end, you have a few choices, and its just the reality of it:
(1) Lift a bit to get some neural adaptations, keep calories the same, but nothing meaningfully changes.

(2) Keep doing what you are doing and continue to be under muscled, but enjoying your endurance sport.

(3) Focus on strength and aesthetics, going up in body weight to put on real muscle, then cut down to the same body weight looking stronger and more aesthetic.

If I may make a suggestion. You are 40. Your metabolic window to put on some easy muscle is closing (its not slamming shut, but every year your testorone drops and it gets a little bit harder). I would urge you to seriously consider taking some time to dedicate to strenght and muscle gain to set you up for a better run as you age. Long terms, this will benefit your health, quality of life, and keep you in your Endurance sport longer. Plus, you will look good.

Choice is yours.

(But get that DEXA and post it. Run your dreamer program, and come back and 6 months with a new DEXA. We will all be here to tell you we told you so).

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Agree with all of this. I'll say it too because I don't think anybody else has: putting on demonstrable muscle mass is WAY harder than upping cardio capacity. Doing it right is a marathon.

All I was trying to say earlier is a lot of times less is more with strength training. Only you have the full picture, but if you are continuously lifting with depleted glycogen stores or not giving your nervous system recovery time. Brother, you are just going to stall out sooner way sooner than you should.

I'm doing 4 days a week right now, 2 upper and 2 lower. Usually 4 compound movements a workout and 2 not compound lifts. But I've cut down to 2-3 days in the past when I've upped the cardio because I simply wasn't getting good workouts in on a 4 day schedule. And when I cut the lifting days down, I'd suddenly have really good sessions again.

I have similar goals as the op. I'm on the gym 3 days per week, usually on a ppl split. On a bike 6 days, with two of this interval session days. To minimize interference, do your zone 2 workout early. Then same day, do your lift, hours later. Harder endurance workouts after lifting is the biggest interference. Attempt to have you lower day as far from your vo2 day as you can. I tend to eat enough when not close to a race season, so I can build strength, but you have to switch to maintenance mode when endurance volume and intensity picks up. I'm 49, and am having to incorporate more easy and rest days.

Endurance athletes are the most stubborn on the planet. (For good reason).

Many think recovery, metabolism, thermodynamics, all just magically doesn't apply to them. Then, take issue with the meatheads when they explain how it actually works.

Im a recovering endurance guy, so I know.

Quote:

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Attempt to have you lower day as far from your vo2 day as you can. I tend to eat enough when not close to a race season, so I can build strength, but you have to switch to maintenance mode when endurance volume and intensity picks up. I'm 49, and am having to incorporate more easy and rest days.

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Yup. Standard Two-Factor Model.

Tex117 said:

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Endurance athletes are the most stubborn on the planet. (For good reason).

Many think recovery, metabolism, thermodynamics, all just magically doesn't apply to them. Then, take issue with the meatheads when they explain how it actually works.

Im a recovering endurance guy, so I know.

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hahaha yeah same here. I said it's easier. That's too far and I do respect endurance athletes for what they do… it's tough too. Just like strength training, it's about showing up and consistency and trusting the process. What I should have said is it doesn't require near the patience strength training and muscle building does. I've always believed that's a little bit of why it's so hard to quit being an endurance guy.

Not true at all. To develop true high level cardio capacity takes years of consistent training with 10-20 hour weeks.

Doing a slow marathon or Ironman is not hard, nor is it impressive, but being able to go fast and maintain power and HR for hours on end is substantially harder.

Go run a sub 3 marathon, Sub 10 Ironman or 24 hour 100 mile ultra. It's substantially harder than putting on muscle. Both take consistency, but people who have actually done both at high levels. Training and maintaining that load takes huge focus on recovery and nutrition that most people and weight lifters ignore.

Not denying high level body building and power lifting takes the same level commitment. They do.

I used to train primarily weight training. Never at the levels comparable to what I've done endurance wise, but progress was faster. I transitioned to endurance racing to prep for a mountain hunt and never stopped. I know plenty of people that are good at both. When all i asked for suggesting what lifting plan someone would recommend with my background.

Being moderately in shape as a endurance athlete is probably easier. Being in shape to actually compete on a high level isn't.

I think 9000 was talking about averages. Not the extremes of either sport.

As you stated, an average person can brute force themselves through a marathon with 6 months of training. Muscle building works on a much longer timeline (as you know).

AggieLAX said:

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This thread got me thinking and I ended up writing about it.

Hypertrophy, Strength, and Endurance Have Different Ceilings. Most Men Train Like They Don't.

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Then someone got the last word, and it was the fairest point in the whole thread: at the average level, endurance really is easier to fake your way into. Anyone can half-ass his way to a slow marathon in 6 months. That won't build you an impressive physique.

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Quote:

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Hypertrophy, strength, and endurance hit their ceilings for different reasons, on different timelines.

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Quote:

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As you stated, an average person can brute force themselves through a marathon with 6 months of training. Muscle building works on a much longer timeline (as you know).

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.

Its almost like we know what we are talking about.

Haha good post on the Link

It is also right that 95% of the people did not read my post and just threw their own biases at my training.

I said I was an endurance athlete training cardio 6 to 7 days a week and wanted a 3-4 day lifting plan to help improve strength and my physique.

Not that i wanted to make gains like a body builder or a power lifter. I am training for Ironman and Ultras not strongman or Mr. Olympia. I am not an idiot. I know i am not going to look like Arnold or lift like Ronnie Coleman. haha.

I just figured PPL was not the best approach for a 3 day split.

Upper Lower split a and 3 day Full body are programs I was curious about.

Tactical Barbell is first recommendation i received. I read the Green book, and it is almost identical to what i am doing cardio wise. Must be wrong right?

I am looking at the Plans Tex117 suggested as well.

When I grabbed link to Green Protocol for you, I noticed he released a new book, TB3 Operational Athlete. I read it cover-to-cover over the weekend. I'm excited about the few small tweaks that I think will really help me through the next decade (40s). It was neat to see that I learned some of the same things over the last decade that he and his training partners did.

Exactly! haha

I guess I did not properly vocalize my goals. My goals are run Leadville and go Sub 10 Ironman. Just wanted a lifting plan.

Contrary to popular belief, I am not putting in that much volume endurance wise right now. When i start having 60-100 mile running weeks and/ or 100 mile bike rides every weekend, lifting would taperdown.

arrow said:

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When I grabbed link to Green Protocol for you, I noticed he released a new book, TB3 Operational Athlete. I read it cover-to-cover over the weekend. I'm excited about the few small tweaks that I think will really help me through the next decade (40s). It was neat to see that I learned some of the same things over the last decade that he and his training partners did.

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I ordered Green book immediately after you posted. It would be a great plan if i did not already have an endurance coach. Also ordered the New addition of the first book. Will be here tomorrow.

I am happy to throw a number of different exercises your way but I don't have a program I can truly recommend for only 3-4 days of lifting. Everything I have done has been 5-6 days of lifting and most of those programs are focused around being in a gym and having access to things like cables and leg presses.

If you want to break down some of the exercises you're currently doing, the frequency, and rep counts, I can help make suggestions. You're going to be limited in a home garage, which is totally fine, but requires a little bit of planning.

I'd also say with only 4 days a week or so, I would probably focus on compound movements every single day (not each of these each day but ensuring you're doing some of these in your program):

Bent Over Rows
T-Bar Rows
Landmine Rows
Meadow's Rows
Aussie Rows
Chest support dumb bell rows
Kroc Rows
Single arm dumb bell row

OHP
Dumb Bell Press
Cuban Press
Landmine Press (single arm)

Dumb bell press (Incline and flat)
Barbell press (incline and flat)
JM Press or Close Grip Press

RDLs
SDLs
Deadlift
Bulgarians
Barbell Squat
Hip thrusts (insert Nigerian news meme)
Goblet Squat or Landmine Front Squat
Single leg or B stance RDLs

If you can do those and then pair them with some isolation movements for Delts, arms, and calves, you'll have plenty of exercises in the arsenal - it will then just come down to commitment and intensity.

Are you familiar with Reps in Reserve? Are you familiar with what truly failure is on most of your lifts? It can be hard in a garage gym, I know from personal experience. However, you're going to need to know what that limit is or damn close to it truly push yourself and ensure you're getting the maximum amount of stimulus possible - ideally without systemic failure too.

Again, happy to help with whatever I can but just not sure I can point you in the direction of any single plan that is out of the box ready for you.

Appreciated the time and effort you put into that post. Great info. 4 days of lifting is the goal.

I have not truly pushed all my lifts, specifically my squats, to failure recently as I'm in the garage solo. It is something I need to do. Fitbod uses Reps in reserve as a planning metric, so I am aware of it.

I am planning on focusing on compound lifts more frequently and am planning on including a lot of the lifts you suggested.

Like I said previously, don't push to failure. It isn't about safety. It's about fatigue management.

Agree

AggieLAX said:

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Like I said previously, don't push to failure. It isn't about safety. It's about fatigue management.

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Agree about not continuously pushing to failure but at some point you need to understand what failure truly is to establish a baseline and then work around it.

JeremiahJohnson said:

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I have not truly pushed all my lifts, specifically my squats, to failure recently as I'm in the garage solo. It is something I need to do.

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Based on the picture of your equipment that you posted, you have a similar squat cage and spotter arms to what I have.

I have squat 400+ pounds and failed in my rack and the safeties did their job. I have tried to bench 315 and failed and the spotter arms did their job.

Now, I think it's a good idea to tell someone inside what you're doing when you are really pushing your lifts so they know to listen for agonizing screams/tons of metal hitting the ground. But I have total confidence in the safeties to do their job.

JeremiahJohnson said:

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I said I was an endurance athlete training cardio 6 to 7 days a week and wanted a 3-4 day lifting plan to help improve strength and my physique.

Not that i wanted to make gains like a body builder or a power lifter. I am training for Ironman and Ultras not strongman or Mr. Olympia. I am not an idiot. I know i am not going to look like Arnold or lift like Ronnie Coleman. haha.

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Nobody said you did. What was suggested to you is that if one is training to be as light as possible (as you said you are for your sport), its very difficult past an early stage to gain muscle mass. And with your training history, it may not work much anyway.

If you want to try and get some neural adaptations for strength at your current weight and hold on to the muscle you have. You can do that at maintenance. Maybe you drop a little body fat at the same time and your physique improves a little.

What we are trying to myth bust, for the most part (and, frankly, its less about you but a response to some of the general idiots out there), one cannot gain appreciable strength and muscle gains eating at maintenance or "losing fat at the same time." There has to be a surplus with adequate recovery. Being an endurance athlete, you have two types of training fighting for recovery resources, let alone the ACTUAL REST it takes for muscle to build.

The better framing (and what is more achievable), is try and maintain as much muscle mass as possible while you train for an absolutely grueling race and try and keep full body strength as high as possible. Once Leadville is done, then train for strength and mass gains by eating slight over maintaince.

Obviously, do whatever you want. But just be clear-eyed in the results you will likely see.