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Endurance Athlete wanting new Lifting Plan

3,384 Views | 71 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by Tex117
JeremiahJohnson
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I have been doing Ironman and running / Ultra running for a while. I do lift, but do not think I have the right approach. I typically lift 3 days a week, with a goal of 4. I have been doing a Push/Pull/Legs and do a full body if I can fit a 4th day with work.

Thinking 3-4 Full body days or Upper lower split are probably better options.

Cardio is done 6-7 days a week.
Run 4 days per week.
Bike 1-2 days days
Stairmaster 1-2 days (helps for mountain races)
Lift 3-4 days split between Monday- Friday

Typical Week:
Monday: 30-45 min Stairmaster or Bike and Lift (Pull)
Tuesday: 1:00-1:15 Run - lift if time permits
Wednesday: Stairmaster or Bike and Lift (Push)
Thursday : Interval Run 1 hour - lift (Legs)
Friday 30-45 min Stairmaster or Hour Bike and Lift(full body or Legs)
Saturday: Long Run or Bike 2 hours
Sunday : Long Run

Comes out to 3 or max 4 days lifting.

Goal is get stronger and better physique. Not necessarily bigger. Currently 6ft 185lbs. Is 3-4 day full body the best option or go upper lower split? Possibility that 2nd leg day gets missed. Considering all my endurance leg work does it matter?

Programs worth looking at? Been using Fitbod.
bam02
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Stronglifts 5x5. All you need for strength. Incredibly simple plan and it works!
ATM9000
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bam02 said:

Stronglifts 5x5. All you need for strength. Incredibly simple plan and it works!


I wouldn't advocate a program that prescribes squatting 3x a week with progressive overload to somebody that seems to go hard running and endurance training daily.

Compound lifts are the way to go for the OP goals though. Split doesn't matter beyond that. Only thing I'd say is if you are thinking about lifting 4 days a week, build rest days in where your cardio is just walks. Compound lifts will tax your CNS and you need to find a way to build more real recovery time into your routine.
Hoosegow
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Running and lifting can be counterproductive. You just can't meet you caloric demands to get stronger.

My advice, focus on body weight exercises and complexes. Hell, pulling a sled on your off days will help.

You will have a CNS adaptation gain, but after that, you will struggle trying to serve two masters.
AggieLAX
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An Upper/Lower split is best, in my opinion. Heavy, low volume, with 2-3 reps in reserve. Don't take sets to failure. The recovery cost is too high. Lift before cardio on same-day sessions if possible. If you can separate lifting and cardio by a few hours on the same day, do it. Six hours is ideal but even two makes a difference.
bam02
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Yes I agree. I should have read closer. I was thinking he was backing off the heavy running routine.
ATM9000
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I'm in my 40's now. Don't know how old OP is but the 3 things I've learned that took my strength training up a level that I wish I understood earlier in life when I always thought the right answer to stalled progress was just 'more':

- nutrition and proper protein intake
- proper recovery for your body
- avoiding junk work

All so much more important than workout splits. No idea on nutrition but man… I see that weekly training schedule and the amount of cardio built in… I don't see where you properly recover in it and that's a regiment that looks like it almost has to have a bunch of cardio junk work in it where you aren't really progressing yourself.

Significant strength and aesthetic gains simply won't happen if you don't really focus on those 3 points.
10andBOUNCE
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To me, subbing out the Stairmaster for your dedicated lifting makes some sense. But you mentioned that benefitting your mountain races, so I cannot speak to the value there.

I don't think a goal of 4 days lifting makes sense. I am focused on lifting and my goal is 4 days per week.

I think 2 focused days of lifting per week would be great for you. Perhaps two days lifting and one on the Stairmaster.
htxag09
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For a lot of endurance athletes, most of their runs are zone 2 recovery runs. I wouldn't say its junk cardio, just different cardio than most people are used to. They're working on building a needed base. OP is doing Ironman and Ultra races....not neighborhood 5Ks....
ATM9000
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htxag09 said:

For a lot of endurance athletes, most of their runs are zone 2 recovery runs. I wouldn't say its junk cardio, just different cardio than most people are used to. They're working on building a needed base. OP is doing Ironman and Ultra races....not neighborhood 5Ks....



It could be… but when I see Stairmaster 3 times a week on a 7 day regiment… I think it is fair to ask the question…
JeremiahJohnson
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Leaning towards Upper/ Lower/ Upper split. Have a 2nd lower if I'm not trashed from the other work. Any workouts or programs you recommend?

Not surprising my methods are questioned. Most lifters don't run and most runners don't lift. Stairmaster is easy work. Typically warm ups for my lifting. Helps my climbing base for mountain races.

I have an endurance coach that plans all my endurance training. I have been doing it off and on for 10 years injury free.

I don't want to be a runner with no strength. I'm not. I can lift heavy. I also don't want to be strong and not be able to run a marathon at the drop of a hat.

Just trying to figure out a good 3-4 day lift split. I want to figure out the most efficient use of my lifting time. Is it upper/lower split, PPL, or 3 day full body. Better resource than fitbod? I have a great garage gym.

I do add recovery days. This week doesn't have much of one but they come in a few times a month. Zone 2 runs, stairmaster and cycling don't really stress me at all.

Granted this heat and humidity has been making my longer runs suck a little but everything else I recover quickly.


JeremiahJohnson
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htxag09 said:

For a lot of endurance athletes, most of their runs are zone 2 recovery runs. I wouldn't say its junk cardio, just different cardio than most people are used to. They're working on building a needed base. OP is doing Ironman and Ultra races....not neighborhood 5Ks....


Correct. I'm building for distance and endurance strength. Not speed or body building.

Normally I do 2 days of stairs and the 3rd day is an easy hour bike. Got into the stairs because my climbing is **** in ultras. Stairs have helped a ton. 30 min stairs is Zone 2 for me.
arrow
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You might try reading this book:
Tactical Barbell: Green Protocol


I've had incredible results following Tactical Barbell 1 and 2 over the last decade. My primary focus has been strength-to-weight ratio with a secondary focus on aerobic capacity. It's helped me excel in the mountains despite having to train in Texas.

The Green Protocol book isn't really for me because I'm not interested in marathon to ultra type running. Half marathons are about as much as I want for endurance. More than that and I can't maintain my maximal strength, strength endurance, or high intensity cardio levels that I prefer. With that said, the lessons learned and strength programming in Green Protocol may be exactly what you are looking for.

----

Short of reading that book, my recommendation would be a minimal dose of heavy compound lifts. Only the good stuff. Program a minimum of two days per week while you're progressing your endurance. Consider programming 3 days per week when you're ready to progress your strength. Always have at least one day of non-lifting between your barbell days.

i.e. Back Squat, Bench Press, Weighted Pull-Ups, Deadlifts. 2-3x per week.
Periodization w/ 6-week blocks.
Based on 1 rep max (or close appx).
Week 1: 70% 3-5 sets of 5
2. 80% 3-5 sets of 5
3. 90% 3-4 sets of 3
4. 75% 3-5sets of 5
5. 85% 3-5 sets of 3
6. 95% 3 sets of 1-2 reps.

arrow
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Follow-up post regarding Tactical Barbell.
Since you already have the endurance side pretty squared away, you might be better off just reading book one and implementing what the authors calls "Fighter" for your strength programming.

Again, I've had great results with TB. It was recommended to me on this forum about ten years ago and I'm so happy it was.
JeremiahJohnson
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Appreciate it!
Tex117
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JeremiahJohnson said:

I have been doing Ironman and running / Ultra running for a while. I do lift, but do not think I have the right approach. I typically lift 3 days a week, with a goal of 4. I have been doing a Push/Pull/Legs and do a full body if I can fit a 4th day with work.

Thinking 3-4 Full body days or Upper lower split are probably better options.

Cardio is done 6-7 days a week.
Run 4 days per week.
Bike 1-2 days days
Stairmaster 1-2 days (helps for mountain races)
Lift 3-4 days split between Monday- Friday

Typical Week:
Monday: 30-45 min Stairmaster or Bike and Lift (Pull)
Tuesday: 1:00-1:15 Run - lift if time permits
Wednesday: Stairmaster or Bike and Lift (Push)
Thursday : Interval Run 1 hour - lift (Legs)
Friday 30-45 min Stairmaster or Hour Bike and Lift(full body or Legs)
Saturday: Long Run or Bike 2 hours
Sunday : Long Run

Comes out to 3 or max 4 days lifting.

Goal is get stronger and better physique. Not necessarily bigger. Currently 6ft 185lbs. Is 3-4 day full body the best option or go upper lower split? Possibility that 2nd leg day gets missed. Considering all my endurance leg work does it matter?

Programs worth looking at? Been using Fitbod.

If I may make a suggestion.

Like you, Im built for endurance. It feels so much more natural than squatting heavy. BUT, I made the decision to put on some real muscle and get stronger. Im tall, Im lanky, and was 40 at the time. I took my runs down to only a few miles a week and focused on getting stronger. I put on some very real muscle over three years and got moderately strong (not strong for strong guys, but strong for normal life).

Im not sure if you compete, or if you have seasons. But I would consider trying a straight up "strength phase." Cut the cardio down to very light recovery runs. You will burn too many calories to support strength and muscle gain. Start with Strong Lifts, Starting Strength, GreySkull, IceCream Fitness...pick your poison. There are some easy gains to get on these programs. Usually about 6-9 months (ish) if you are eating properly.

A good way to do that is to lift heavy the big compound lifts.

Here is the thing. Your physique will likely not improve unless you put on more muscle. This took me years to finally admit to myself. I tried to do what you did. And nothing really happened. Only thing that noticeably improved my physique was gaining muscle mass with big compounds (at least to start, then some accessories) and eating over maintenance. Once you are done and you transition back to full throttle endurance, the fat will melt off and you will look better and be stronger.

Here is also the thing, an endurance athlete may be the most stubborn on the planet. (Its just the nature of the sport and who is drawn to it). You probably will grind yourself into paste trying to do what you are doing, and then be frustrated that it didnt work. You may be a bit stronger, but you wont look different. Its fine. I did it too. But you cant ride two horses with one ass. If you are serious about actually improving a physique and getting stronger, you need to pick that lane.
JeremiahJohnson
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Volume is pretty light right now so this is my strength stage. I am 40 and 6ft 185. The heavier i get, the slower I am. So i want to stay in this range. Likewise the smaller i get, the weaker I am. If i keep up with protein i will gain muscle. I could lose 10 more lbs of body fat. I'm probably at 15-20%. I think 185 at 12-15% is sustainable.

I probably have different goals than 99% of people on here. Maybe some people call it hybrid, but just fit endurance athlete. I have a few friends that do both but not many.

I disagree 100% that you can't do both.

Did not know asking for a weight program would get a ton of people telling me I can't do it. I can and have. haha
ttha_aggie_09
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If I am being completely honest, with that much cardio and exercise you're already doing and you're only 15-20% BF and not happy with your physique, you might need to look at your diet, not your program.

Regarding this:
Quote:

I disagree 100% that you can't do both.

I mean, you can do both but they're opposing philosophies that directly conflict in many/most ways. Every improvement you make on one end of the spectrum is going to be at the cost of the other. Can you do both? Absolutely, but you're not going to be elite or probably even great at both unless you're just an absolute freak of nature.
AggieLAX
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The interference effect is real but it's not insurmountable. It's just another variable to manage.

Build strength (and power) in your current low-volume cardio phase and maintain it as race season ramps up. A modified form of Block Periodization is probably your best approach.
JeremiahJohnson
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Never said i was unhappy with my physique, just said I would like to improve. Who wouldn't? Diet is 100% the way to change it. I have to choose Abs or Bluebell. It is a hard choice.

No 40 year old is going to be elite at either discipline. I am not Cameron Hanes or David Goggins. But I can and have been fit and strong.

I think it is silly to be strong and not be able to run. Just as I think runners who don't lift are not doing themselves any favors.

Funny i am continuing to get lectures from people who haven't and say that it can't be done. It can, but you just have to commit the time. All I am asking for is the best 3-4 day lifting plan. I guess next time I will leave off my background.
JeremiahJohnson
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AggieLAX said:

The interference effect is real but it's not insurmountable. It's just another variable to manage.

Build strength (and power) in your current low-volume cardio phase and maintain it as race season ramps up. A modified form of Block Periodization is probably your best approach.


Agree. My main question through this whole thing... What split?

3 Full Body Days
Upper Lower Upper - 4th day upper if my legs aren't trashed.
Push, Pull, Legs

Best resource for plans?

Tactical barbell has been suggested by 2 people.

Tex117
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JeremiahJohnson said:

Volume is pretty light right now so this is my strength stage. I am 40 and 6ft 185. The heavier i get, the slower I am. So i want to stay in this range. Likewise the smaller i get, the weaker I am. If i keep up with protein i will gain muscle. I could lose 10 more lbs of body fat. I'm probably at 15-20%. I think 185 at 12-15% is sustainable.

I probably have different goals than 99% of people on here. Maybe some people call it hybrid, but just fit endurance athlete. I have a few friends that do both but not many.

I disagree 100% that you can't do both.

Did not know asking for a weight program would get a ton of people telling me I can't do it. I can and have. haha

Re-read my last paragraph. I knew this was going to be your response. (And, please read this in all a fun and ribbing manner).

I can fully understand if you want to focus on endurance. You want to stay at that body weight. Its your body. Do whatever it is you want. BUT, you need to be clear eyed about what you results will be. No one is telling you that you can't do it. We are telling you that the goals you say you want will not be served by doing this. And, if you swing by the weightlifting thread, all of these posters are there and have spent years doing this. Not some yahoos who watched an Athlean X video.

You will not gain muscle by power chugging protein shakes and eating chicken breast lifting baby weight. You gain muscle by power chugging protein shakes, eating chicken breast, AND BEING IN A CALORIC SURPLUS AND LIFTING HEAVY. The laws of thermodynamics do not magically not apply to you.

You can disagree all you want. But science and data all point the other way. (But lots of fitness influencers can say you can do both. You cant. Its not metabolically possible, unless you augment with some serious drugs). Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it any less true. (Will you get a little change, sure, but nothing meaningful that changes the way you look).

If you are looking for modest neural adaptations for strength, yeah, you may get that. Maybe you put on a pound or two of muscle. But you are not going to magically recomp from 15-20% body fat into something 12-13% and stay the same weight.

ALSO, and here is something else to look at. You say you are in the 15%-20% body fat range. Don't guess. Get a DEXA scan. This will tell you where you are at both with lean body mass and body fat. This gives you a base line. Now you can actually track with certainty what's actually happening.

And another thing. You are likely undermuscled. If you are at that body fat, doing that kind of cardio, and not sub 15, it means you don't have enough muscle burning off your calories. I know, because I did this as well. I thought, I can just lift and cut. I did that. I cut to sub 10%, I looked like I had cancer.

Endurance athletes very rarely look strong and athletic. They look like sheet usually. (And for good reason, they need to be as light as possible). Sprinters and swimmers look awesome....wonder why that is....

In the end, you have a few choices, and its just the reality of it:
(1) Lift a bit to get some neural adaptations, keep calories the same, but nothing meaningfully changes.

(2) Keep doing what you are doing and continue to be under muscled, but enjoying your endurance sport.

(3) Focus on strength and aesthetics, going up in body weight to put on real muscle, then cut down to the same body weight looking stronger and more aesthetic.

If I may make a suggestion. You are 40. Your metabolic window to put on some easy muscle is closing (its not slamming shut, but every year your testorone drops and it gets a little bit harder). I would urge you to seriously consider taking some time to dedicate to strenght and muscle gain to set you up for a better run as you age. Long terms, this will benefit your health, quality of life, and keep you in your Endurance sport longer. Plus, you will look good.

Choice is yours.

(But get that DEXA and post it. Run your dreamer program, and come back and 6 months with a new DEXA. We will all be here to tell you we told you so).

AggieLAX
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Like I said in my initial reply, I believe Upper/Lower is your best bet 2-4 times a week.

U/L/U/L or...

U/L/U one week L/U/L the next.

That's the split that I follow because I do a crap-ton of mobility before I lift. Full-body workouts would take me 3 hours.
Tex117
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Quote:



I think it is silly to be strong and not be able to run. Just as I think runners who don't lift are not doing themselves any favors.

Funny i am continuing to get lectures from people who haven't and say that it can't be done. It can, but you just have to commit the time. All I am asking for is the best 3-4 day lifting plan. I guess next time I will leave off my backgrond

I agree. It is silly not to be able to do both.

LAX has it right. We are talking about periodization. (This is the whole, cant ride two horses with one ass). You aren't going to magically recomp though.
JeremiahJohnson
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I do not disagree. I am not going balls to the wall endurance wise 12 months a year. I do have periodized planning with a coach. I know my weight will fluctuate depending on which part of the training block I am in.

Doing an hour a day of easy cardio is not a lot. Just asking guys on here what they like in a 3- 4 day block.

This is not my first rodeo either. I have been doing this for more than 10 years.

My "A" race isn't for a year. I am just in the base building stage.
JeremiahJohnson
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Tex117
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JeremiahJohnson said:

I do not disagree. I am not going balls to the wall endurance wise 12 months a year. I do have periodized planning with a coach. I know my weight will fluctuate depending on which part of the training block I am in.

Doing an hour a day of easy cardio is not a lot. Just asking guys on here what they like in a 3- 4 day block.

This is not my first rodeo either. I have been doing this for more than 10 years.

Good deal. All im trying to tell you that if you want to actually see muscle gains, you need to be in a caloric surplus (dones't have to be crazy, but a surplus), and lift intensely (heavy and/or to close to failure). You have to lean into this for it to actually make you appreciably stronger and more muscled. Otherwise, your results will be mid at BEST.

That 10 years wasn't taking the gym seriously. Your stats show that.

(And Im not dunking on you. I was in your shoes. With the same mentality. It took taking the gym very seriously lifting heavy weight and eating in a surplus to move the needle on the muscle, physique and strength. This will be the case for you as well).

JeremiahJohnson
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100%. I do it for fun.

My body fat is high bc I did an Ironman in the fall then took time off hunting. I only lifted, while continuing an Ironman calorie surplus diet. I eat like an obese person when I am in peak Ironman training. Got fat. Started back in Feb. Down 20 lbs since April.

Totally my fault, but got my deer so it was worth it. lol
ttha_aggie_09
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Look, you asked a bunch of meatheads about building muscle/mass and you're doing a ton of cardio (comparative to most on this thread, myself included) and are surprised at the response? I'd love to be Cam Hanes by the way - mostly because of all the bulls he gets to kill.

We're the same age, same height, and probably close to the same BF% (although I need to schedule my Dexa and compare to last years because I have leaned out a little bit). The difference is about 60lbs of body weight... however, you could probably run 4-5x the amount of time I can before stopping and have a VO2 max WAYYY above mine and honestly, that is a more important overall health metric in most ways, but I've got a stupid goal on bench I need (want) to hit before father time tells me I can't be any stronger.

Additionally, I am stronger and bigger at almost 40 than I have ever been in my life. How? Because I spent the last 20 something years doing things wrong, not paying attention to my diet, not prioritizing sleep, and doing dumb programs and lifts. I cannot emphasize how much improving your sleep can be impactful on your recovery and health... please do this now if you're not already.

So when I asked you about your diet, I wasn't trying to be an ass - I was trying to determine how much wiggle room you had there for improvement. Sounds like you have some.

Regarding your programming, are you exclusively working out in your home gym? It looks like you have quite a bit of dumbbells, I think I saw kettlebells, and then a squat rack with adjustable bench. Any other equipment? Do you have a landmine attachment?

I like P-P-L split and do it personally, albeit on a 6 day interval (P-P-L, P-P-L), but I am not sure I would advocate doing it for a 4 day interval... perhaps entertain something like:

Day 1:
Back
Biceps
Hamstrings and/or dead lift variation (traditional, RDL, SLDL, or even rack pulls)

Day 2:
Chest
Shoulders
Triceps

Day 3:
Legs (probably more quad focused)

Day 4:
Arms
Back (1 compound lift and/or 1 isolation from something not done day 1)
Chest/Shoulders (1 compound lift and/or 1 isolation " ")

I am happy to share all that I know in what not to do, I just can't promise I know everything to do...
ttha_aggie_09
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Now I need pics of said deer, unless you already posted on OB?
Tex117
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Down 20?! Haha you really got the fook after it in both directions!

Now, about this deer.
JeremiahJohnson
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Yeah I work out almost 100% at home. I use the land mind a lot too.

Thinking about getting a cable machine eventually. Something like the Rep Adonis.

My goals are dumb too. Over the next year or so I am building for Leadville in 2027. Attempting a Boston qualifying time in marathon and bench 300 at the same time. My endurance coach is a bigger guy so he gets it, but I like doing my lifting on my own.

Did post the deer a while back on OB.

ttha_aggie_09
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That deer is awesome! Not sure if I would call it a double main beam or just an absolutely insane G2. Rifle setup looks badass too!
Tex117
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So you are even lighter?! It's worse than I thought! (Kidding around)

Listen to Ttha. Dude is a beast. Ask him how much that guy lifts. It's about equal to a medium sized kia.

Where is your bench at now?
Tex117
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Dude! Awesome! You are earning your handle name for sure!
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