Each year I follow a 16-week marathon training course. I'm in good shape outside of that, but just not following a plan. I cross train with high intensity Pilates.

A lot of those weeks I feel perpetually sore. I'm generally fine with it... comes with the territory. But it makes my speed work daunting and I don't feel like I'm ever 'caught up'.

Questions:

• Should I consider a dietary supplement to help?
• Protein or creatine? How should I make that decision?
• What other measures should I take?

TIA!

How often and much are you running outside the 16-week training plan? What is the delta between your average week of running in the other 36 weeks of the year and, say, week six of the marathon plan?

i'd also want to know the structure of training. what are you doing on the days before and day of speed workouts, how many rest days, etc, etc. There are a lot of variables at play.

being constantly sore doesn't "come with the territory." Something is off.

Thanks for the interest, guys!

A bit more background:

• Outside of the 16 week plan, my baseline running is 10-20 miles/week. ~3 short runs (3-4 miles) and sometimes a longer weekend run.
• My plan has varied over the years but was originally based on Runners World 16 week Sub 4 Hour Marathon: https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/training/marathon/a760131/rws-ultimate-marathon-schedule-sub-400/
• Right now, it starts with 20 miles/week and builds to a max of 45 miles/week.
• Each week has 1 long/slow run, 4 short runs (some easy but at least one hard/tempo/hills/etc.), and 2 rest/cross train days

Example of my issue:
Long run on Sunday, Pilates on Monday, and I'm sore (perhaps a better word is "fatigued") before I even start my Tuesday tempo run. Pushing the tempo later in the week helps a little, but then it's on the heels of several straight days of running... so similar issue.

I do think age is at play here. I'm 43 and just don't recover like I use to!

Your recovery stinks, it sounds like- sleep, nutrition, hydration all are a part of it

I think my sleep and hydration are pretty good. Sleep score in the 80s per Garmin and I'm constantly drinking water and electrolytes.

I think the above cover the more important aspects and don't think it'd help with your current structure/soreness. But, I'd definitely look into creatine.

What's helped me is protein after any workout (I add creatine and fiber to it), good food/no alcohol and I think most importantly the easy runs are really easy. I had a couple blocks like you and I'd look at my easy run pace vs my tempo pace and it really wasn't that different. Slowed down the easy runs and I recovered a lot better.

How are you fueling your runs? My guess is not well enough.

The mileage is relatively low, but my guess is you are going too hard for all your workouts. Your easy days must be easy otherwise, everything just becomes average instead of having easy/hard days.

Muscles, joints, connective tissues? Any specific location or muscle group?

Have you tried mixing in any yoga? I'm about the same age as you and running 20-30 miles a week. I find that doing yoga on days I've had a hard or long run helps quite a bit with my soreness. Ekhart Yoga has a couple 20-25 minute videos on youtube (Yoga for Runners and Beginners Flow) that have been helpful for me. I wish I was disciplined to do it more often than I do.

Thanks again for the discussion!

A few more thoughts:

• I am fueling well for long runs. Precision Fuel gel, Salt Sticks, and water.
• I'm not fueling for <10 miles other than a bar before I run.
• My soreness is muscular. My joints/tendons seems to be in good running shape
• RE: yoga, I experimented with yoga and pilates for a while. Landed on pilates. It might miss some of the stretch though. Definitely hits the full body and works soreness out some.

I think you guys are on to something for easing my long runs. Last year, I was doing LOTS of hills for my long run because my race was a 50k trail run. Those long runs whipped me and I stayed sore for days. Easing/slowing these feels like step 1.

I just don't think taking more than 1 day off in a row makes sense as I'm building mileage. But open to those who disagree???

From a supplement standpoint, it seems like protein is the place to start? Or does quicker recovery rhyme with creatine more?

Are you eating enough calories and protein? Obviously you need carbs to fuel your running, but adding in an extra 20g of protein could be a game changer. Especially post run. But calories in general will fuel repair of the body.

Creatine may have a marginal effect on recovery time, but most of the benefit is with generating power for short bursts. It may also lead to muscle cramps, so be careful.

Carbs before and after - I know you stated that you don't eat well if you do less than 10k…but that's like an h of r give or take…

At least 60g carbs prior to a run - at least that much plus protein post run

People don't realize that carbs post exercise are suppper important in recovery and contribute to the anti-inflammatory response and aids recovery.

How much hydration in a day give or take?

Owen Kellogg said:

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Outside of the 16 week plan, my baseline running is 10-20 miles/week. ~3 short runs (3-4 miles) and sometimes a longer weekend run.

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I think you are sore because you're not starting with the aerobic base intended for marathon plans that involve speed work, Most plans starting at a base of running <20 miles a week and peaking in the 40s are aimed at people whose goal is "just finish" and involve little to no speed work (e.g., Higdon Novice plans).

I would try adding 4-6 weeks to your plans focused on building your base from 20 to 30 and then start a 12-18 week marathon plan.

What I haven't seen mentioned yet are what are your paces?

Target Marathon pace?
Steady endurance pace?
Hard pace?

What kind of shoes are you wearing?

Odds are you are running to easy stuff too hard, which is fatiguing you and making it too hard to hit the hard stuff.

My coach saw the same thing from me and has had me run my easy stuff, not on pace, but on heart rate with target rates to force easy running. It's done wonders for my energy levels, but also i'm seeing my speed begin to return, but at lower paces.

Owen Kellogg said:

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Thanks again for the discussion!

A few more thoughts:

• I am fueling well for long runs. Precision Fuel gel, Salt Sticks, and water.
• I'm not fueling for <10 miles other than a bar before I run.
• My soreness is muscular. My joints/tendons seems to be in good running shape
• RE: yoga, I experimented with yoga and pilates for a while. Landed on pilates. It might miss some of the stretch though. Definitely hits the full body and works soreness out some.

I think you guys are on to something for easing my long runs. Last year, I was doing LOTS of hills for my long run because my race was a 50k trail run. Those long runs whipped me and I stayed sore for days. Easing/slowing these feels like step 1.

I just don't think taking more than 1 day off in a row makes sense as I'm building mileage. But open to those who disagree???

From a supplement standpoint, it seems like protein is the place to start? Or does quicker recovery rhyme with creatine more?

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This is where cold therapies can actually be beneficial. While I always tell people to try to avoid too much cold therapies while bodybuilding as it seems to diminish the metabolic effects of training that lead to muscle growth in most studies, for sports training (marathon/running is a sport) where recovery is more important, cold therapies seem to show helpful benefits. Even just a few ice baths. Another thing you might try is heat. Like a sauna. That has also been shown to be beneficial for recovery as well, and added benefit is some studies even show it doesn't inhibit muscle growth but may enhance it potentially.

You might consider cutting anything that isn't for making you a better runner as well. You might like pilates, but I have yet to see it prescribed to sport athletes to make them better at their sport. It is fine to do, but if you aren't recovering, it could help to cut it out for a while. Think specificity when training. What are you training for and will this make you better at doing that thing. Pilates doesn't seem too strenuous vs say a heavy, high volume leg day at the gym, but it has its own difficulties and is a place to start.

Do you have a coach? If not, do you know of a running coach you trust to consult with them. Honestly, for anything super difficult, it is always a very good idea to hire a good coach. I wouldn't do a bodybuilding show without a coach. I wouldn't train for a marathon without on either. Why try it on my own? A good coach will help with making sure you aren't overreaching. Most people overreach in their training. Few actually overtrain, but it can happen in extreme cases. You see overreaching when performance starts to go down and doers so consistently (not just 1 bad day for instance). A coach is trained to watch for this. Also, a question to ask regarding soreness, how severe is it? Obviously, severe soreness will inhibit performance. Mild to moderate might be fine...,