http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324103504578374681699511190.html

I think a good start to funding it would be to include on the race waiver a statement that if you test positive for a banned substance at the race that you will pay a fine of $XXXX, something like $500 or $1000 that could help cover the cost of the testing.

Great read! From my experience, I would guess on a percentage basis cycling definitely has the highest amount of amateurs doping. This is driven by a smaller population and a higher propensity in the culture and the demographic (lots of rich dudes ride bikes... At least in NYC). I would think triathlons would be a close second and marathons and masters swimming are way behind.

I definitely know some guys I've raced and trained with in the ironman community that I strongly suspect were doping. I know for a fact that many, including myself have used "legal doping" supplements like 1st endurance. For cycling and IM's, once you're spending the money for supplements, private coaching, and the expensive equipment just to win or qualify for a big race, the only thing stopping you from doping is morals. Lets not kid ourselves and think there aren't plenty of people who would cross that line once the got that close. It's sad, but I totally see it. In masters running and swimming, the culture and investment doesn't get you close enough to the line to have it be that simple of a choice. Just my 2 cents, but ya... All cyclists dope

Christian Hesch, a sub-elite road runner who has made about $10-20,000 a year (I think) for the last few years from road races was recently caught. He lived in San Diego and would cross the border when he needed to. At first he claimed it was just to come back from injury but I think later changd his story. Disappointing especially knowing people who he beat and thus stole money and prizes from.

Ya, I'm sure there are still plenty in road running, swimming and other sports - especially near the top.

So what are the pros/cons for using 1st endurance?

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=endurance&id=934&src=desktop

saw this posted today about a runner doping. dude won 4 marathons in 6 weeks.

it makes you wonder about some of the endurance athletes that live and train at altitude in mexico. it would probably be pretty easy to fly under the radar.

For most of us, this is just important to keep in mind when competing. You never know who has juiced so you should really only concern yourself with doing your personal best.

Really if you cheat and win, what did you actually win? I would feel ashamed to win that way.

In Christian Hesch's case, he won thousands of dollars.

In the article CJO linked to, I'm not sure I buy the race director excuse that they are getting rid of prize money in part to discourage cheating. It's unfortunate that people choose to cheat at these races, but it's even more unfortunate that good but not great runners are losing the opportunity for prize money that can supplement their income and sustain their career for longer. The Rock and Roll series have steadily dropped their prize money from 5 figure awards to nominal amounts at best.

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Really if you cheat and win, what did you actually win? I would feel ashamed to win that way.

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Some folks don't see it as cheating, some see it as giving their body the ability to be the absolute best it could be.

It is important to understand that most like it isn't just some of the top people in amateur sports who are doping, it could be the guy next to you and he has only been able reached your level of ability due to chemical help. Chemical enhancement is prevalent in all aspects of our society, from sports to medications just so people perform better in school with their classwork. There are some theories out there that Adderall is the #1 abused drug on college campuses (including A&M). Some of these people come by those drugs by mostly legal means, with legit prescriptions from their corner pharmacy.

These are examples as to why I lift in a tested federation (powerlifting league). Sure it won't stop everyone and isn't a 100% guarantee, but it helps stop rampant doping. Even to the point that if you are actual and needed testosterone theorpy, you can't lift in the federation since it is easy to get prescriptions for the drugs even when you don't need them.

I don't know how many times I can say it, but you should really go watch "Bigger, Faster, Stronger." It is an interesting look into how our culture pushes people to dope but then says they shouldn't.

Article said the pikes peak marathon has had testers. I think you'd have to dope to be crazy enough to run that marathon.

If people can wear glasses/contacts and compete, they should be able to take any thing they want.

FreeLunch - the benefit is basically improved recovery time. Supposedly, you can push the volume and intensity necessary for endurance events with more frequency and less rest. I used Optygen HP for 2 seasons and definitely felt the benefit, but its hard to tell if it was placebo effect since the results aren't nearly as extreme as true doping.

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its hard to tell if it was placebo effect since the results aren't nearly as extreme as true doping.

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What would you define as "true doping?"

Have you ever scanned the WADA list? The reason why I ask is an example I have from my competition life. I used to use Jack3d as a pre-workout, the old formula that had DMAA in it. Except that it wasn't listed as DMAA or one of the two general chemical names, it was listed as one of the extract names.

It gave me a decent benefit, but it wasn't a magic pill, it didn't give me obscene strength or help me recover faster. It is however, considered illegal to use in competition and on the WADA list as a banned substance. Taking it is considered "doping."

Once I realized that I immediately stopped using it and the only significant change that happened to me was that my blood pressure went down some. I'm significantly stronger now than I was back then, but that has a lot to do with my training and diet.

Too much caffeine is doping.

So now any time I want to try a new supplement, it takes some time to sit down and google each ingredient to make sure there aren't any other names used, then I search the WADA list to keep it all legit.

I'm willing to bet that if you took some of your supplements that you take and did the same you might be surprised.

[This message has been edited by DBSwooper (edited 3/31/2013 9:35a).]

Swooper- I absolutely agree. It never really occurred to me since it is a simple otc product, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is something in there that might be on WADA's substance list. I'm actually curious and will check now.

While I think most would agree that this isn't in the same severity as taking epo or testosterone, it simply supports the idea that the culture can get people to cross the line very easily. Some might consider what I took as crossing the line. Similarly, some of these amateurs that take epo, testosterone, etc. might not consider that as "over the line".

It's a very interesting issue that seems preposterous at first blush, but is a much bigger problem than most realize.

... I'll try to report back this week on the ingredients of Optygen.

I'm interested to see what you find with your research into that product. I hadn't heard of it before, but I'm in a completely different kind of athletic competition than you are.

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While I think most would agree that this isn't in the same severity as taking epo or testosterone

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My point is to get hardliners to think about what they consider bad. Not allowed is not allowed, right?

Something to consider is that a lot of people think that testosterone is a magic bullet, it's a big deal but it isn't a genie in a bottle. The people who take it don't automatically start winning. People who are winning and take it still work very hard to get to where they are.

Don't take this as my endorsement for anabolic steroids, but to me it is important to look at the big picture. Sticking the big needle won't make you a Lance Armstrong, a Ronnie Coleman or a Brian Shaw, good genetics and an extreme commitment to hard training (plus a better life through chemistry) will.

[This message has been edited by DBSwooper (edited 3/31/2013 1:48p).]

I think we are completely on the same page, Swooper. I agree with your statement of "if its not allowed, it's not allowed". I'm now as curious as you. I definitely never intended to cheat, but maybe I did.

Whew! I did a search for the ingredients of Optygen HP and compared them all on the WADA list (WADA Banned Substance List). None of the ingredients are included.

Furthermore, I found this statement on the First Endurance website (Optygen Product Info) that states they have received approval from WADA. I found a few other websites saying the same thing about the product to confirm.

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First Endurance supplements are legal to use in any sporting event governed by the World Anti-Doping Association (WADA), the US anti-doping association (USADA) and by the UCI (Union Cycliste International). One or more of the aforementioned governing bodies govern all US Cycling, International Cycling, US Triathlon and International Triathlon....
OPTYGEN-HP contains NO ingredients, which are explicitly listed under the banned substance list, nor are any of the ingredients related chemically or pharmacologically. First Endurance has also contacted the USADA and received verbal confirmation that our ingredients are not banned based on their regulations. Note: USADA, WADA and UCI do not offer any certification or written confirmation.

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Even though the product I used appears to be clean, I think that Swoopers point is very salient. There is a large portion of amateur competitors that get close enough to the line that many cross it by knowing intent, but also by ignorance and assumption that they are OK if it is a "legal" product to purchase.

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Something to consider is that a lot of people think that testosterone is a magic bullet, it's a big deal but it isn't a genie in a bottle. The people who take it don't automatically start winning. People who are winning and take it still work very hard to get to where they are.

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This little nugget is also interesting. I definitely don't condone cheating, but those guys that do cheat still work their tails off.

[This message has been edited by H2OPoloAg02 (edited 3/31/2013 2:46p).]

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Whew! I did a search for the ingredients of Optygen HP and compared them all on the WADA list (WADA Banned Substance List). None of the ingredients are included.

Furthermore, I found this statement on the First Endurance website (Optygen Product Info) that states they have received approval from WADA. I found a few other websites saying the same thing about the product to confirm.

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Cool, I'm glad you found that everything is cleared for competition. Did you find it time consuming to search the individual ingredients? Did you find that some of them have a long list of other names?

That's something I think about everything an athlete pops up in the news having popped for a banned substance and they say "I didn't know." The media tends to blow things out to sound like everyone was taking massive amounts of testosterone when the athlete could have popped for an ingredient in a common supplement. Although I won't say that is the case every time we hear about this happening.

Now, lets say you and I started up a supplement company that sold donkey urine, but we called it some sort of scientific sounding name and we paid a big athlete to endorse the supplement, do you think people would buy it? Do you think people in the gym would swear it worked? What if we paid the money to have a bunch of full page color ads in Flex, Muscle and Fitness, Mens Health and on a bunch of websites, do you think we would sell a bunch of it?

Assuming that we worded everything the right way to not make outright false claims and our product didn't hurt anyone, would that product still be legal to sell? Would the FDA ban it?

This is something I have come to terms with as I have gotten older. When I was younger I thought there was a magic genie in a bottle with supplements. Now I stick to the two that I know work well and have been researched extensively (WPI and creatine). I can't fathom how much money I spent in my early 20s on all the latest stuff that the guy behind the counter was pushing and the magazines were "reviewing."

Tomorrow I crank up the next 10-week program to my next contest and I'm starting to think about how much I'm going to have to spend on food and protein to make the training happen. Ouch.

Something that doesnt get talked about much is blood doping/procrit doping. Anyone have any experience with that?