Complete Idiot said:

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Yesterday said:

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I still think the best combination is the plug in hybrid. My buddy has one and he gets about 30 miles on the battery and then the motor kicks in. So technically he can drive his daily commute everyday without using the engine and if he needs to make a random road trip to Dallas he doesn't have to switch cars or charge along the way.

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For a one car household, I kind of agree - but the complexity of those cars potentially means more things to go wrong.

I think the best combo is in a 2 or more car household and the day to day needs of one person in the household is ideally suited to an EV. The other car is the road trip car (if road trips are something they do).

So many are in "all EV's are stupid" or "EV's are perfect for everyone" mode, I don't get it. Lot's of use cases for vehicles, lots of household situations. EV sales have taken off and while it's an encouraged decision, and I get why that bothers many people, it's not forced (even if some feel it is). For many use case or household situations, an EV is a good fit. It's a "duh" statement, but I still feel like it has to be made because too many speak in very militant terms about other people's vehicle choices.

Hyperbolic sweeping generalizations should only be made to buyers of Smart cars.

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Agree with your best combo for this use case. This would be us except I have no need to buy an EV since both of our cars are paid for. We use my wife's SUV for road trips and my car in the city at the rate of about 5K miles per year.

I vehemently disagree with your second bolded statement. They are being forced upon us by government manipulation via highly raised CAFE standards and other regulations. This is why so many have rallied against EVs. We are not being allowed to use them through choice. We are being forced to use them because the auto manufacturers are being forced to make them to meet made up political government standards.

In other words, the invisible hand of the market has been blocked to favor vehicles that align with climate fear porn. Just yesterday John Kerry announced that further regulations are coming for a variety of vehicles in the automotive industry because the Paris Accords don't get us all the way to a Net Zero Carbon footprint. (They don't get us anywhere according to their own writers but that's another topic.)

Thus, they are going to hammer the auto industry even more because it's an easy target and they've already set the precedent and have things fully in motion for an all EV industry. You will be forced into an EV and it will be connected and tracked by government authorities. I can post a link to that if you would like(?) because that's already been passed into law.

YouBet said:

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I can post a link to that if you would like(?) because that's already been passed into law.

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Sure, I'd like the link you are referring to - always interested in more data.

I am curious if you are referring to a law that will govern future consumers or a current law somewhere in the world that limits the choice of a current consumer to EV only.

I was only referring to current decisions and my belief that the average EV buyer, in 2022/23, isn't buying due to politics or climate change thoughts but instead solely on what vehicle meets their needs and gets them excited about the car. I don't think anyone is forced to only consider EV at this time, the laws/plans I am aware of are to limit choices fully around 2035 - 12 years away so most people buying a new car now wouldnt feel coerced into an EV since most don't tend to keep a car 10+ years. I think even in 2035, those proposed laws only apply to new car sales, not used, but I do want to read the link you referred to. Even in the way I believe it is being planned I do find it quite shocking they are legislating these choices.

I think "the powers that be" push this as a climate and pollution requirement but I have to believe that under the covers there is also a desire to push energy independence. Maybe (probably) I'm wrong regarding political motivations but I personally see that as a plus. Any fuel or propulsions that can stop us from having to buy oil from Russia or the Middle East sounds good to me.

Complete Idiot said:

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YouBet said:

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I can post a link to that if you would like(?) because that's already been passed into law.

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Sure, I'd like the link you are referring to - always interested in more data.

I am curious if you are referring to a law that will govern future consumers or a current law somewhere in the world that limits the choice of a current consumer to EV only.

I was only referring to current decisions and my belief that the average EV buyer, in 2022/23, isn't buying due to politics or climate change thoughts but instead solely on what vehicle meets their needs and gets them excited about the car. I don't think anyone is forced to only consider EV at this time, the laws/plans I am aware of are to limit choices fully around 2035 - 12 years away so most people buying a new car now wouldnt feel coerced into an EV since most don't tend to keep a car 10+ years. I think even in 2035, those proposed laws only apply to new car sales, not used, but I do want to read the link you referred to. Even in the way I believe it is being planned I do find it quite shocking they are legislating these choices.

I think "the powers that be" push this as a climate and pollution requirement but I have to believe that under the covers there is also a desire to push energy independence. Maybe (probably) I'm wrong regarding political motivations but I personally see that as a plus. Any fuel or propulsions that can stop us from having to buy oil from Russia or the Middle East sounds good to me.

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Were we not a net exporter for the first time in our history just a few years ago?

Something changed. Gee, I don't know what changed, but something suddenly caused us to have to buy more oil. And release it from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve to combat prices (it didn't work).

Net exporter of petroleum products - crude oil, HGL's, refined gas and diesel, etc. Net means you export more than you import, in 2021 the US exported 8.54 million bpd and imported 8.47 million bpd - a net positive.

A good chunk of the imports come from Canada. OPEC and Middle east accounts for roughly 20% of imports, it's not that much of a reliance per se but I'd still see benefits in getting that number to 0%. Certainly the only way to do that is not EV's, but it's one thing that could help. It's just a potential side benefit I see.

Yesterday said:

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I still think the best combination is the plug in hybrid. My buddy has one and he gets about 30 miles on the battery and then the motor kicks in. So technically he can drive his daily commute everyday without using the engine and if he needs to make a random road trip to Dallas he doesn't have to switch cars or charge along the way.

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There are some more PHEVs now, but most have pretty awful electric range, and the cost increase will never be made up. For instance, a Ford Escape hybrid has a MRSP of like 43k but a base Escape is 28k. A Wrangler 4xe has a base of 56k (with just 22mi of electric range) while a base 4door wrangler is 31k.

Most families aren't 1-car households, at least families that could realistically be considering buying a Tesla or Rivian.

What we did was a PHEVMinivan (Pacifica) for my wife. She teaches a couple miles from us, and the kids' schools are in the area as well. Even adding in some errands (after school activities, groceries, etc) she rarely uses gas as long as we remember to plug it in every night.

I have a 65mi round trip commute (and 10-15 trips in the Houston-SA-Austin-DFW triangle per year) and wanted something fun and fast (sub 5.0s 0-60) and good milage would be a bonus, but not my first option. Was looking at a wide variety of sport sedans from the Stringer to M3/M5 or S7.

So we ended up with:

Pacifica plug in hybrid as family car/wife's car.
Tesla Model 3 for my commuter
Old Landcruiser for hauling, camping, etc.

They all have their place, and the Tesla goes out of town more than the other cars. Charging isn't that big of a deal, especially now that Bucees put in a ton of Superchargers. Charging with non-teslas would be significantly more of a burden, though, since there isn't a supercharger network.

It is weird to me that so many people make EVs out to be such an either-or conundrum. For the driving habits of most people, they would work great.

Complete Idiot said:

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Net exporter of petroleum products - crude oil, HGL's, refined gas and diesel, etc. Net means you export more than you import, in 2021 the US exported 8.54 million bpd and imported 8.47 million bpd - a net positive.

A good chunk of the imports come from Canada. OPEC and Middle east accounts for roughly 20% of imports, it's not that much of a reliance per se but I'd still see benefits in getting that number to 0%. Certainly the only way to do that is not EV's, but it's one thing that could help. It's just a potential side benefit I see.

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All you are doing is swapping one undesirable dependency with another - from ME oil to Chinese owned battery resources and/or Africa. So no net gain in being beholden to others.

We could be O&G independent from the ME and resolve that whole issue if we simply wanted to, but we choose not to because of politics. So no real desire to be independent by this administration. They've actively worked against independence in reality.

I'll post link when I get back home but in a nut shell the Infrastructure Bill passed legislation that you will be required to use a breathalyzer every time you want to operate your vehicle and it will have facial tracking software/AI that will shut your car off if it thinks you are impaired and somehow beat the breathalyzer. So just a little 1984 for you.

FTR, I'm not opposed to EVs. Im just opposed to the tyranny being shoved down our throats using EVs as a mechanism and battleground for politics.

Let the market decide on its own.

YouBet said:

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Complete Idiot said:

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Net exporter of petroleum products - crude oil, HGL's, refined gas and diesel, etc. Net means you export more than you import, in 2021 the US exported 8.54 million bpd and imported 8.47 million bpd - a net positive.

A good chunk of the imports come from Canada. OPEC and Middle east accounts for roughly 20% of imports, it's not that much of a reliance per se but I'd still see benefits in getting that number to 0%. Certainly the only way to do that is not EV's, but it's one thing that could help. It's just a potential side benefit I see.

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All you are doing is swapping one undesirable dependency with another - from ME oil to Chinese owned battery resources and/or Africa. So no net gain in being beholden to others.

We could be O&G independent from the ME and resolve that whole issue if we simply wanted to, but we choose not to because of politics. So no real desire to be independent by this administration. They've actively worked against independence in reality.

I'll post link when I get back home but in a nut shell the Infrastructure Bill passed legislation that you will be required to use a breathalyzer every time you want to operate your vehicle and it will have facial tracking software/AI that will shut your car off if it thinks you are impaired and somehow beat the breathalyzer. So just a little 1984 for you.

FTR, I'm not opposed to EVs. Im just opposed to the tyranny being shoved down our throats using EVs as a mechanism and battleground for politics.

Let the market decide on its own.

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Some people say ICE cars negatively affect the environment so there's that too. Some people also say extracting the battery materials is also bad.

maroon barchetta said:

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How did Teslag get your login info?

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Model Y? OP should've at least bought a model that doesn't look like it was beaten with the ugly stick.

The Fife said:

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Model Y? OP should've at least bought a model that doesn't look like it was beaten with the ugly stick.

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I think the Model S looks good, nothing else does.

My friend just got a Model 3 Performance. The acceleration in that thing is unreal. Can't get anything else that can accelerate like that for less than twice the price.

The Fife said:

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Model Y? OP should've at least bought a model that doesn't look like it was beaten with the ugly stick.

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All Tesla's are pretty unattractive but, yes, the Model Y is the ugliest one. However, it is basically a Model 3 with more interior space and only costs slightly more than a similarly spec'd Model 3. Models S and X look the best, but they are more than double the cost of a 3 or Y.

My wife drives a Model Y and it works perfect for us. She has a relatively short commute during the week and we tend to use it on weekends when driving around Houston. Prior to purchasing it, we were averaging $432 per month on fuel as a household. We bought the Model Y last July and since then our average is $263 per month. Surprisingly, my electric bill has only gone up by an average of $24 per month over that same time period the previous year. That adds up to about $1,700 savings each year.

We were in the market for a new vehicle and included multiple ICE's in our search. The one's we were considering were around the same price as what we paid for our Model Y so the car payment would have been the same regardless of what we purchased.

We've taken it on trips from Houston to the Hill Country, South Texas, and DFW. We planned our charge stop(s) around when we'd typically stop to eat/snack, so those didn't necessarily add more time to the drive. However, for trips longer than that, we'll take my ICE since we typically plan for more miles between stops on long drives.

If someone is considering purchasing a Tesla and asks me about it, there are 2 warnings I give them:

• Contrary to popular belief, it is NOT a luxury vehicle. Know that before purchasing one. It has great technology and handles well, but the fit & finish is of inconsistent quality, the seats are not very comfortable to me (my wife loves them), there's a lot of road noise, and you can feel nearly every bump.
• The stated range is based on "ideal" conditions so don't count on actually driving that many miles on a single charge. There are too many factors that deteriorate the range. The stated range on mine is 330 miles. We've never run it down to 0%, but the lowest we've gone to is about 5% and that was after about 280 miles.

Teslag said:

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I went from a BMW X3 M40i to a Model Y. The Tesla is better in just about every single way. Just an amazing and fun vehicle for what it is.

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To some of us, this could be nothing more than saying a lobotomy is better than an execution at the hands of a guillotine. I know some like BMWs but their reputation for reliability is not that much higher than Chrysler's.

EMY92 said:

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The Fife said:

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Model Y? OP should've at least bought a model that doesn't look like it was beaten with the ugly stick.

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I think the Model S looks good, nothing else does.

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The original roadster wasn't bad. The new roadster (if they ever get around to manufacturing it) looks better.

HumbleAg04 said:

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Rode in a Model Y Uber recently. Felt cheap as ***** Seats felt cheap, interior felt cheap, everything inside rattled.

Tesla is an interesting tech company but their vehicle quality for the price point is terrible.

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Had the same experience when I ride in one. It felt cramped, both the seats and ride were uncomfortable, just seemed like a cheap econo car. I was expecting a lot more based on the way people fawn over them, but my first impression was that it wasn't much more than a glorified golf cart.

The Y I rode in just wasn't very impressive for a lot of reasons you mentioned already, also the sun visors were tiny but the windshield comes back way too high up. I already have enough sun damage from all the time I've spent mountain biking so that part is sort of a dealbreaker on its own.

And the whole lack of a manual transmission thing

12thmanfootball said:

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Fastest car by far
Safest car by far
Most storage by far
Best Tech/Software (including over-the-air updates)

The self driving software keeps getting better and better.

Starting in July (in Texas only) Tesla is allowing $30 per month for home (night only) charging (i.e. a buck a day to have a full 300 mile charge every day).

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obviously haven't driven a minivan...

Complete Idiot said:

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YouBet said:

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I can post a link to that if you would like(?) because that's already been passed into law.

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Sure, I'd like the link you are referring to - always interested in more data.

I am curious if you are referring to a law that will govern future consumers or a current law somewhere in the world that limits the choice of a current consumer to EV only.

I was only referring to current decisions and my belief that the average EV buyer, in 2022/23, isn't buying due to politics or climate change thoughts but instead solely on what vehicle meets their needs and gets them excited about the car. I don't think anyone is forced to only consider EV at this time, the laws/plans I am aware of are to limit choices fully around 2035 - 12 years away so most people buying a new car now wouldnt feel coerced into an EV since most don't tend to keep a car 10+ years. I think even in 2035, those proposed laws only apply to new car sales, not used, but I do want to read the link you referred to. Even in the way I believe it is being planned I do find it quite shocking they are legislating these choices.

I think "the powers that be" push this as a climate and pollution requirement but I have to believe that under the covers there is also a desire to push energy independence. Maybe (probably) I'm wrong regarding political motivations but I personally see that as a plus. Any fuel or propulsions that can stop us from having to buy oil from Russia or the Middle East sounds good to me.

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we have plenty of oil in the ground here.

What we don't have is enough sunlight, wind or water to make magic fair dust electricity to power all those electric vehicles. Nor do we have enough rare earth metals HERE IN THE U.S.A. to make those batteries for those vehicles. Those come from China. So do the solar panels. China is hardly our friend.

You're just switching one bad guy for another. But the one we're dealing with now (Middle East) we can replace that source of energy with what's in the ground here in the US. The batteries and solar panels, not so much.

TexAg2001 said:

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The Fife said:

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Model Y? OP should've at least bought a model that doesn't look like it was beaten with the ugly stick.

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All Tesla's are pretty unattractive but, yes, the Model Y is the ugliest one. However, it is basically a Model 3 with more interior space and only costs slightly more than a similarly spec'd Model 3. Models S and X look the best, but they are more than double the cost of a 3 or Y.

My wife drives a Model Y and it works perfect for us. She has a relatively short commute during the week and we tend to use it on weekends when driving around Houston. Prior to purchasing it, we were averaging $432 per month on fuel as a household. We bought the Model Y last July and since then our average is $263 per month. Surprisingly, my electric bill has only gone up by an average of $24 per month over that same time period the previous year. That adds up to about $1,700 savings each year.

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Even at $3/gallon and 25mpg that's 3,600 miles per month. Lets say you average 30mph that's 120 hours of driving a month or ~30-hours a week = 4.3 hrs/day. Do you live in CA where gas is 2x a much as everywhere else?.

agracer said:

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TexAg2001 said:

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The Fife said:

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Model Y? OP should've at least bought a model that doesn't look like it was beaten with the ugly stick.

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All Tesla's are pretty unattractive but, yes, the Model Y is the ugliest one. However, it is basically a Model 3 with more interior space and only costs slightly more than a similarly spec'd Model 3. Models S and X look the best, but they are more than double the cost of a 3 or Y.

My wife drives a Model Y and it works perfect for us. She has a relatively short commute during the week and we tend to use it on weekends when driving around Houston. Prior to purchasing it, we were averaging $432 per month on fuel as a household. We bought the Model Y last July and since then our average is $263 per month. Surprisingly, my electric bill has only gone up by an average of $24 per month over that same time period the previous year. That adds up to about $1,700 savings each year.

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Even at $3/gallon and 25mpg that's 3,600 miles per month. Lets say you average 30mph that's 120 hours of driving a month or ~30-hours a week = 4.3 hrs/day. Do you live in CA where gas is 2x a much as everywhere else?.

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I bet we spend that much or more each month. Both of us commute to Katy from central Houston, maybe 50 miles RT, lots of other driving, both averaging 15 mpg and getting premium gas at CostCo so pretty cheap.

I wanted a Model Y Performance but got a used LX so I'm trying to sell her on the MYP.

There is definitely a learning curve with driving one on a road trip.

Was stuck with a model 3 in Boston (rental) arrived at 11pm at Logan and the Hertz/Thrift/Dollar only had 9 model 3's available - only ICE vehicles were mustang and camaro and they wouldn't work with 3 passengers for me.

Range was 263 miles on a full charge which was adequate. I didn't realize or fully appreciate the need to recharge at a supercharger location at first. 1.5 hours on a non-super charger only added 43 miles of range.

Non of the hotels we stayed at had access to an EV charger nearby.

Tesla navigation kept guiding me to supercharger on the opposite side of the highway adding time and distance to the supercharger - I didn't realize this the first few stops.

Waiting 40 to 50 minutes at a supercharging location was an inconvenience.

Getting down to 5 miles range late at night before finding a supercharger was nerve racking.

Overall the car drove great - the accelerator/deceleration took some getting used to.

The controls were also a learning curve for a first time Tesla drive.

Decided i'm not ready for an EV. I'll pay for gas and convenience to have a 5 to 10 minute stop on road trips vs 40 to 50 minutes.

I appreciate the opportunity you've given me to elaborate on my numbers

"Household" includes 3 vehicles:

• 1 averages about 17 mpg and takes premium fuel. Still own and is my DD. I average about 30 miles/day now. Prior to getting the Tesla, the average was around 45 miles/day since this vehicle was what we typically also used on the weekends.
• 1 averages about 23 mpg. Still have that vehicle and son drives it. He averages about 20 miles/day
• The vehicle we sold when getting the Tesla was an older truck that got around 14 mpg

Now, we almost exclusively drive the EV on the weekends for trips around town, which is a large part of the cost savings we are experiencing because it takes weekend miles away from the ICE vehicles.

Keep it up guys. You're all just,... awful...

Anyone have a Model Y with two little kids and it being the biggest car in your household?

I drive about 60 miles a day. Looking to upgrade, not necessarily for gas savings. But if it can't hold a stroller and a couple bags for going out of town, what do you do? Add a cargo carrier?

Need to attach a trigger warning to Tesla threads. Like moths to a flame in here.

ATL Aggie said:

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Carlo4 said:

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12thmanfootball said:

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Safest car by far

The self driving software keeps getting better and better.

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Steering wheels fall off.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43265980/tesla-model-y-steering-wheel-investigation/

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Reminds me of Robert Earl Keen describing what it feels like to ride a bull.

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Ya just take it and chuck it right out the window.




Cooooooooo-penhagen.......

They have more storage in the rear (and frunk) than you'd think. A friend has one with two older kids and they love it.

Nice. I am more interested in all the chit you lug around with kids under the age of 2. Seeing that there are a slew of tesla nerds on youtube that have made videos.

Good chance I become one.

drumboy said:

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YouBet said:

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Complete Idiot said:

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Net exporter of petroleum products - crude oil, HGL's, refined gas and diesel, etc. Net means you export more than you import, in 2021 the US exported 8.54 million bpd and imported 8.47 million bpd - a net positive.

A good chunk of the imports come from Canada. OPEC and Middle east accounts for roughly 20% of imports, it's not that much of a reliance per se but I'd still see benefits in getting that number to 0%. Certainly the only way to do that is not EV's, but it's one thing that could help. It's just a potential side benefit I see.

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All you are doing is swapping one undesirable dependency with another - from ME oil to Chinese owned battery resources and/or Africa. So no net gain in being beholden to others.

We could be O&G independent from the ME and resolve that whole issue if we simply wanted to, but we choose not to because of politics. So no real desire to be independent by this administration. They've actively worked against independence in reality.

I'll post link when I get back home but in a nut shell the Infrastructure Bill passed legislation that you will be required to use a breathalyzer every time you want to operate your vehicle and it will have facial tracking software/AI that will shut your car off if it thinks you are impaired and somehow beat the breathalyzer. So just a little 1984 for you.

FTR, I'm not opposed to EVs. Im just opposed to the tyranny being shoved down our throats using EVs as a mechanism and battleground for politics.

Let the market decide on its own.

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Some people say ICE cars negatively affect the environment so there's that too. Some people also say extracting the battery materials is also bad.

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Some people also say that China and India are way behind the game.

TexAg2001 said:

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I appreciate the opportunity you've given me to elaborate on my numbers

"Household" includes 3 vehicles:

• 1 averages about 17 mpg and takes premium fuel. Still own and is my DD. I average about 30 miles/day now. Prior to getting the Tesla, the average was around 45 miles/day since this vehicle was what we typically also used on the weekends.
• 1 averages about 23 mpg. Still have that vehicle and son drives it. He averages about 20 miles/day
• The vehicle we sold when getting the Tesla was an older truck that got around 14 mpg

Now, we almost exclusively drive the EV on the weekends for trips around town, which is a large part of the cost savings we are experiencing because it takes weekend miles away from the ICE vehicles.

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you didn't mention a 3rd driver (son) and said your wife had a short commute. That's why I asked. Seemed like a like for 2 people, one with a 'short commute"....

Plus by buying a Tesla you are supporting one of the few people who is spending a butt-ton of money and energy to eradicate the "Woke" lefties' BS.............the Republicans (Rhinos) sure aren't doing it.

Man, this thread has it all.

• the rib
• minivan
• "here's my anecdote..."
• "woke"
• US-china relations
• energy independence

A real gem.

12thmanfootball said:

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Plus by buying a Tesla you are supporting one of the few people who is spending a butt-ton of money and energy to eradicate the "Woke" lefties' BS.............the Republicans (Rhinos) sure aren't doing it.

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They're also the most 'American Made' cars.

https://www.cars.com/american-made-index/

I say we buy all the oil/gas we can from other countries while we save ours. Then we can rule the world.

China already has the jump on us!

F250 in Texas Vs a Tesla Y. Safety outcome in the head to head or T bone collision?

Safest ever