How has the ownership been and what was the main cause for you to rule out the defender?

This thread is timely. We've been thinking of upgrading my wife's QX60 to something with a little more cargo room. I like Yukons the most, but will look at all options.

I'm a little interested in the Grand Cherokee L, but a little worried because it's a Chrylser. Does anyone have any experience with the newer non-hybrid GC?

ChoppinDs40 said:

---

What'd you get?

---

My wife picked the navigator, because of how it looked. Got a 2019 with 50k ish miles for $50 ish. It rides great, but has been a POS. Bought it last summer and it has stranded us twice and been in the shop multiple times. Heater hoses started leaking, 300 in parts and 6 hours of labor. Timing chain clatter was fixed under warranty, but took a couple of weeks with no loaner and broke down after I picked it up because they forgot to connect a hose clamp. Valve cover leaks, it will be replaced under warranty but they had to order. I noticed the rear passenger side felt harsh on bumps when sitting in the back the other day. Turns out that rear shock is leaking and not covered under warranty. Fancy adaptive shocks are 1k for the set, and a bunch of labor because they are an assembly with the coil springs. Happy wife happy life?

gross. These days, I'm scared of buying something used unless it's CPO.

The advantage to buying a new ride is you know exactly what's been done to it, where it's been serviced and what it felt like prior to issues arising. I baby the hell out of my vehicle, I'm soft on the accelerator and easy on the breaks. And I drive when it's the family because my wife is a female driver. Tailgates, drives fast, and uses her gdamn phone - drives me crazy.

Knock on a huge piece of wood. My 2021 F150 has had no issues and a couple of minor recalls.

Wife's 2022 Wagoneer has had virtually no issues (other than software updates) outside of the rear-hatch latch needing to be replaced. Dealership spoke with Wagoneer engineering directly about this and they advised to replace the motor and pistons too and the latch was shipped off to engineering to diagnose what happened (must've been something new?). Either way, they got us a brand new 2023 wagoneer as a loaner.

While there's still being kinks worked out, if you have a decent Dodge dealership that's wagoneer service certified, you'll be taken care of. It's Stellantis' push to have a luxury brand.

I am showing my wife this post. She wants me to get a Navigator. It's like I just met my future self which is telling to get the LX.

Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus have drawbacks in the sense that our consumers here expect things - such as "tech" - that shouldn't be valued when you will spend 50K minimum.

I'm taking a 4Runner to 400K and beyond. Probably. Hopefully. That's what should be valued.

Redstone said:

---

Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus have drawbacks in the sense that our consumers here expect things - such as "tech" - that shouldn't be valued when you will spend 50K minimum.

I'm taking a 4Runner to 400K and beyond. Probably. Hopefully. That's what should be valued.

---

Sold our 2011 with about 200k. Bought wife a replacement 2021. They're tanks… Good news is this one's a TRD Pro so when she's done with it, it's mine.

Way too many Toyota homers on this board that think Toyota's never break and all other brands are Yugo quality. Truth is the domestics are much more reliable today than they were 30 years ago. My last two Chevy's and a Ford have been bulletproof.

I personally went with Yukon AT4, ordered new and should be here in March. Drove Wagoneer and liked it but read way too many forums that since so new they are having tons of electrical issues and they are putting in the new Hurricane engine in 23's which scares me, had terrible experience with 1st Gen Ecodiesel that Ram put in it so voted to stay away from it until get bugs our. Also didn't like that the 2nd row captains seats don't flip up (or at least salesman couldn't figure out how to) they only slide forward.

they don't flip up, only lay flat or slide forward.

somewhat glad I've got 5.7 in mine. although that Hurricane is badass - 500HP!

AT4 was my dream SUV except it has no adaptive cruise control. I need that.

1939 said:

---

Way too many Toyota homers on this board that think Toyota's never break and all other brands are Yugo quality. Truth is the domestics are much more reliable today than they were 30 years ago. My last two Chevy's and a Ford have been bulletproof.

---

This is a weird thing to be grumpy about. I've owned four Toyotas (4Runner, Cruiser, and Tundra) and never done a single thing to them other than routine maintenance over 100s of thousands of miles.

My sub 10k Bronco just spent six weeks in the shop and is one more visit away from getting lemon lawed per my lovely Ford rep. My parents suburban is constantly in the shop.

Automobile stereotypes exist for a reason and people prioritize different things (dependability, new tech, comfort, performance).

Considering OP is concerned with dependability and specifically mentioned Toyota as an option the conversion seems pretty relevant and not surprisingly many are stealing him toward a Sequoia.

If he'd asked fora vehicle that was the most comfortable or had the nicest interior and tech options I don't manner here would be reeling him to go the Toyota route.

ChoppinDs40 said:

---

gross. These days, I'm scared of buying something used unless it's CPO.

The advantage to buying a new ride is you know exactly what's been done to it, where it's been serviced and what it felt like prior to issues arising. I baby the hell out of my vehicle, I'm soft on the accelerator and easy on the breaks. And I drive when it's the family because my wife is a female driver. Tailgates, drives fast, and uses her gdamn phone - drives me crazy.

Knock on a huge piece of wood. My 2021 F150 has had no issues and a couple of minor recalls.

Wife's 2022 Wagoneer has had virtually no issues (other than software updates) outside of the rear-hatch latch needing to be replaced. Dealership spoke with Wagoneer engineering directly about this and they advised to replace the motor and pistons too and the latch was shipped off to engineering to diagnose what happened (must've been something new?). Either way, they got us a brand new 2023 wagoneer as a loaner.

While there's still being kinks worked out, if you have a decent Dodge dealership that's wagoneer service certified, you'll be taken care of. It's Stellantis' push to have a luxury brand.

---

Used is always a risk, for sure. There was no way in hell I was paying 100k for a new one though. This is a clean one owner, and has good service history only at the dealer. Once you research it, everything I'm listing is par for the course on these Navigators. We have had a couple of people recently complain of other problems on Texags even. A guys battery went dead and when he replaced it some 1-2k part had to be replaced. These things are junk! My wife is still in love with it, surprisingly. She will wait until it depreciates some more to decide its not reliable. We are going on a trip this weekend to visit my old man, and we are taking my truck if that gives you any idea where I'm at on it.

Thread on mud from some other Navigator owners: https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/the-land-cruiser-is-snuggled-all-warm-in-its-garage.1300972/

No complaints with the GC 4xe. The main reason I walked away from the Defender was price. The Jeep was around $65k, and the Defender would have been closer to $90k assuming I was able to get a new one and not a low mileage used to $20k over MSRP.

You might be first person I've ever heard say they NEED adaptive cruise. I personally don't want it to me it's a danger or could be a hazard if someone cuts you off while you've got it set.

This is undeniably true:

1939 said:

---

Truth is the domestics are much more reliable today than they were 30 years ago.

---

But it's also true that domestics still have a ways to go to match their foreign competitors.

aggiecody06 said:

---

You might be first person I've ever heard say they NEED adaptive cruise. I personally don't want it to me it's a danger or could be a hazard if someone cuts you off while you've got it set.

---

I think the number of gears directly reflect the suck fest or not. In the six speed 4Runner it sucks because get much higher RPM speeds / lurching as it slows and speeds back up.

It's better in the 8 speed bronco. It thought it was pretty handy on the loaner F150s I got with the 10 speed, acceleration up and down was like butter. I also felt that it was able to quickly "read" that a vehicle that pulled into the lane in front of you after passing was going faster than you and wouldn't brake at all. In the 4Runner I won't use it because in the above situation it will just brake on you.

I got to drive quite a few different F150s while my bronco was laid up. Even called me once to say the one I'd been driving for a week had been sold sight unseen. They came and picked it up out of my garage and left a new loaner in my garage all while I was on a call.

Quote:

---

Stellantis'

---

Quote:

---

luxury brand

---

I don't get all the complaining about Land Rover reliability…
Studies show that 8 out of 10 Land Rovers are still on the road today.



The other 2 actually made it back home.

aggiecody06 said:

---

You might be first person I've ever heard say they NEED adaptive cruise. I personally don't want it to me it's a danger or could be a hazard if someone cuts you off while you've got it set.

---

I don't understand your hazard comment since adaptive cruise would slow your vehicle in that case. I have adaptive cruise and my biggest issue is occasionally getting lulled into staying behind a driver that gradually drops from 85 to say 70 on the highway.

bingo. But hey, that's fine. I can just move over and it speeds right back up.

We do a lot of road trips and adaptive cruise control is such a nice creature comfort. When you're cruising at 80 or something and you come up on someone and can't just change lanes and go around them, it's nice to slow you down. Maybe they'll speed up or you just wait to pass, and off you go again.

It's also awesome for convoying with others. Set the ACC at a speed that's faster than they're going and you'll be convoying the whole way.

I also really like it when pulling our TT with my truck. Keeps safe distances from everyone and if it slows me down a little, no big deal. I'm likely not passing someone anyways when pulling the TT.

Convoying with family who are also pulling trailers is great. Did 800+ miles a few summers ago and my dad said every time he looked at his rear view camera on his trailer, we were right there. Same distance every time, no matter the speed.

Here are my thoughts and I have owned a few of these...

- Wagoneer - never owned a wagoneer but had a cherokee and a wrangler. They are ok. The Wagoneer seems expensive compared to other cars with comparable features

- Land Rover Defender - I have a 2018 Discovery that has had very few issues in its 50k miles. That being said why by a Defender unless you are going off road. While it is cross shopped against the others you listed often it really makes no sense. If you are a Texas person this car doesn't make a lot of sense.

- Toyota Sequoia - historically great dependability, however it has always come at a cost. It had a 20 year old drivetrain so of course it is dependable. But they get terrible mileage and drive pretty crappy. The new one is a 10 speed hybrid so everything is changed. Last, the third row set up absolutely sucks

- GMC Yukon - If you get one, sell it at 70 to 100k miles. They are real nice but they do not last. I have had 4 of them and all went to crap at 70 to 100k miles.

- Chevy Tahoe - see above, same car

Ogre09 said:

---

Sequoia had the same model from 2009-2022. They had plenty of time to work out any kinks. I have a 2016 with 135k miles on it. Thing is a tank. 5.7L V8 is a beast. Tows a travel trailer like it's not there. 4x4 system shares design with Land Cruiser. Has a center differential, so can operate on road in 4x4 for rainy/slick conditions. I expect to get 300k+ miles on it. Has independent rear suspension, so third row is super roomy and can fot adults. Plenty of room to haul stuff. Absolutely love it.

---

we also have a 2016. Drive it all over. Multiple road trips to Virginia, North Carolina, Colorado and back. Took the Colorado passes in heavy snow like a champ in 4x4.

My only issue is the fuel tank size and mpg. Just doesn't have the range.

Yes it's very nice unless you drive in Houston traffic on a daily where idiots will just move over right in front of you going 55 when I'm cruising 80. I have more control when I'm hitting the brakes in that instance rather than relying on an automated system. I'm in car repair industry seen plenty of them fail and it's not pretty. It's a luxury and nice to have but not a NEED. ACC and other ADAS systems lull people into a sense of complacency and aren't as aware of surroundings causing major issues.

I'm not using it in rush hour traffic flying on the beltway lol.

Anyways, it's a nice feature that I love. I'm a pretty damned good defensive driver so it doesn't lull me.

On that particular list the Sequoia would be the best bet for reliability, and likely by a wide margin.

But if you are someone who has a hankering for new tech and flashy interiors, it is easily the worst option.

And the 5.7 and AB 60F transmission is a tank like combination.

That is kind of the riff. GM and Toyota have subpar interiors. Wild to think you can't have both when spending $70k.

knoxto said:

---

- Toyota Sequoia - historically great dependability, however it has always come at a cost. It had a 20 year old drivetrain so of course it is dependable. But they get terrible mileage and drive pretty crappy. The new one is a 10 speed hybrid so everything is changed. Last, the third row set up absolutely sucks

---

What kind of mileage do the others get? My Tundra got about the same as my wife's QX56 (same as 80) but I was running regular and hers said it needed premium.

I want to say people usually quote the Sequoia getting like 12-14 maybe more in the right conditions. There's also complaints about it's fuel tank (24 gallons maybe?). That's not a lot of range and requires filling up often.

It's another knock on the Lexus. It gets like 16mpg. Hell, the 4runner gets absolute crap mileage with very little power. Modern drivetrains have come a long way, thanks to the US government, I guess?

Depending on drivetrain, you can get up 18-20 on some of these others.

My dad's 3.0 babyduramax in his Yukon XL (fully loaded, so it's a heavy beast) gets about 25-26. He can get over 600 miles on a tank.

We got 25 on an 800 mile trip from CO carrying 5 people, a rocketbox on top for skis, and a big carrier on the back with coolers and luggage. We were DEFINITELY over payload and not very aerodynamic and he got that mileage. Now, understand that diesel is more expensive than gas but yeah, these newer rides do better or have much more power than that drive train.

For example, the 6.2 GM V8 got about 16 in his old Yukon XL.

We get about 16-18 in our wagoneer with the 5.7hemi.

Wow. I'm getting 16-17 in the LX with mostly highway and thought that was high.

for the power/size/weight ratio, those toyota drivetrains are crap in terms of mpg.

however, it won't be long before someone comes along and does the math on "well you should be ok paying an extra $1,500/year in gas to avoid replacing a blown out <insert common failure with other car>"

I don't disagree with that but there's always goaltending for toyota on here.

Quote:

---

What kind of mileage do the others get?

---

iseecars.com and several other sites have lists based on the combined MPGs. Presumably this is all the base version so 2WD except the Landcruiser/Grand Wagoneer


Chevy Tahoe (3.0 diesel) - 24 mpg
GMC Yukon (3.0 diesel) - 23 mpg
Chevy Suburban (3.0 diesel) - 23 mpg
GMC Yukon XL (3.0 diesel) - 23 mpg

Jeep Wagoneer (5.7 V8) - 20 mpg

Ford Expedition (3.5 L 6-cyl) - 19 mpg
Ford Expedition Max (3.5 L 6-cyl) - 19 mpg

Jeep Grand Wagoneer (3.0 L 6-cyl) - 17 mpg

Chevy Tahoe & Suburban/GMC Yukon & Yukon XL (5.3 V8) - 16/17 mpg
Chevy Tahoe & Suburban/GMC Yukon & Yukon XL (6.2 V8) - 16 mpg

Nissan Armada (5.6 L V8) - 16 mpg

Toyota Sequoia (Pre-2023 models) (5.7 L V8) - 15 mpg
Toyota Land Cruiser (5.7 L V8) - 14 mpg

AnyOtherName said:

---

That is kind of the riff. GM and Toyota have subpar interiors. Wild to think you can't have both when spending $70k.

---

Yes I agree

ChoppinDs40 said:

---

I want to say people usually quote the Sequoia getting like 12-14 maybe more in the right conditions. There's also complaints about it's fuel tank (24 gallons maybe?). That's not a lot of range and requires filling up often.

It's another knock on the Lexus. It gets like 16mpg. Hell, the 4runner gets absolute crap mileage with very little power. Modern drivetrains have come a long way, thanks to the US government, I guess?

Depending on drivetrain, you can get up 18-20 on some of these others.

My dad's 3.0 babyduramax in his Yukon XL (fully loaded, so it's a heavy beast) gets about 25-26. He can get over 600 miles on a tank.

We got 25 on an 800 mile trip from CO carrying 5 people, a rocketbox on top for skis, and a big carrier on the back with coolers and luggage. We were DEFINITELY over payload and not very aerodynamic and he got that mileage. Now, understand that diesel is more expensive than gas but yeah, these newer rides do better or have much more power than that drive train.

For example, the 6.2 GM V8 got about 16 in his old Yukon XL.

We get about 16-18 in our wagoneer with the 5.7hemi.

---

I get 14ish in my 2016 and about 300 mile range. It is my only complaint.

aggiecody06 said:

---

Yes it's very nice unless you drive in Houston traffic on a daily where idiots will just move over right in front of you going 55 when I'm cruising 80. I have more control when I'm hitting the brakes in that instance rather than relying on an automated system. I'm in car repair industry seen plenty of them fail and it's not pretty. It's a luxury and nice to have but not a NEED. ACC and other ADAS systems lull people into a sense of complacency and aren't as aware of surroundings causing major issues.

---

Using it in Houston traffic is idiotic and lazy. You're more likely to be in a wreck just from lack of paying attention in general in that scenario rather than your sensors actually failing to work.

Quote:

---

I don't disagree with that but there's always goaltending for toyota on here.

---

Yeah, people like me goaltend for Toyota for very similar reasons the used costs are so high, and I happily paid way more for a 4Runner than the Equinox and Tahoe before finally abandoning GM....

I want my vehicles to last at least 300K

My mom refused to listen to me, and now her beloved 300 (yes, mom, it does look sleek) is in year 2 of sitting because she is so angry at high repair costs.....with 70K on the clock.