Looking forward to the day when I drive by mansions here in Dallas and I see old Tesla's that have been converted to giant works of front yard, landscape art.

You know someone will do it.

I would assume that charge management and cell monitoring would be built in to the pack itself. It removes the human factor altogether.

The way I imagine it is that a "Battery Station" would have racks of batteries in different states of charge. Each battery would be plugged in to some standardized high voltage DC outlet. The battery itself could then throttle that incoming HV DC so that it would charge and balance it's own cells properly. It would also do fast charging up until maybe 85-90 percent then switch to a top-off mode where it trickle charges that last bit.

That's just my basic imagineering of the subject having been a kid with RC trucks. I started with 7.2V NiCad's, switched to NiMH, then finally Lion.....

agdoc2001 said:

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We'll just stack them in giant piles in Sweetwater - just like all the windmill blades

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That's a sad sight when you head south of Sweetwater on 70. The vast majority of greenies don't get that visual and this don't realize the issues with end of life parts. Batteries for EVs will meet the same fate, I am certain. Out of sight, out of mind for most except the unfortunate landowner adjacent to the scrap yard.

Dp

Tim Weaver said:

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A). Hot swapping batteries is something that has been going on for 30-40 years for electric forklifts. It's not hard.

B). Lithium chemistry battery recycling is understood, and the facilities are currently being built. There will be no need to store these batteries anywhere, since the elemental make up of the batteries are worth money. Just like Catylitic converters.

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2022/01/04/2360800/0/en/American-Battery-Technology-Company-Issues-Shareholder-Letter.html

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This was my intuition as well. What actually changes chemistry wise over the life of a lithium ion battery? I honestly don't know but certainly seems the main components should be able to be re-used, especially since lithium seems as though it will only get more valuable as battery production increases. I could also see the US offering incentives for this because some of the countries that have lithium reserves aren't the friendliest business partners.

Lead acid batteries are pretty commonly recycled but I suspect the market would be stronger if lead had the current and future potential value of lithium.

Cromagnum said:

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You know what doesn't see a 200% drop in fuel economy over its lifetime? Internal combustion engines.

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By the time an EV battery pack has lost 200% of its charged you will have replaced or rebuilt that ICE and transmission. Many people have over 200k miles already on their Tesla battery and are still getting 90+% of their original charge.

MaxPower said:

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Cromagnum said:

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You know what doesn't see a 200% drop in fuel economy over its lifetime? Internal combustion engines.

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By the time an EV battery pack has lost 200% of its charged you will have replaced or rebuilt that ICE and transmission. Many people have over 200k miles already on their Tesla battery and are still getting 90+% of their original charge.

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Many? How many?

I'm not big on EV or even wind power. Kind of interested a tiny bit in Solar, though.

I'm posting this link here because I didn't want to begin a new thread on EVs. This is an Aggie CEO's company building not EVs but gasoline powered Sterling cycle engine vehicles (still in the testing phase) that generate electrical power for the drive train and to charge or recharge the vehicles batteries. It makes a lot better sense to me than recharging EVs that still use fossil fuel for primary power but gets far better fuel economy, far less emissions, and has a decent range.

https://quantumidc.com/

agdoc2001 said:

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We'll just stack them in giant piles in Sweetwater - just like all the windmill blades

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Have you never seen a car junkyard?

Complete Idiot said:

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agdoc2001 said:

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We'll just stack them in giant piles in Sweetwater - just like all the windmill blades

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Have you never seen a car junkyard?

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Did those cars claim to be good for the environment?

maroon barchetta said:

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Complete Idiot said:

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agdoc2001 said:

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We'll just stack them in giant piles in Sweetwater - just like all the windmill blades

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Have you never seen a car junkyard?

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Did those cars claim to be good for the environment?

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Well, I think the claim is "better" for the environment, in comparison, and is still being argued long term I guess.

But yes, there were cars throughout history that were claimed to be better for pollution, and economy hand in hand, than others. Mainly in the late 70's and 80's I guess.

I just don't get what presumed junk/trash parts proves.

Complete Idiot said:

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agdoc2001 said:

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We'll just stack them in giant piles in Sweetwater - just like all the windmill blades

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Have you never seen a car junkyard?

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Totally the same. Fantastic analogy.

agdoc2001 said:

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Complete Idiot said:

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agdoc2001 said:

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We'll just stack them in giant piles in Sweetwater - just like all the windmill blades

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Have you never seen a car junkyard?

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Totally the same. Fantastic analogy.

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So what is being suggested by the "we'll just stack them like
Wind mill blades" post, In your opinion?

That those blades will never be used?

Will sit there forever rotting and destroying the environment?

Was it not a post in response to an electric battery discussion, do you feel windmill blade disposal compared to electric battery disposal IS a good analogy?

Yes, because windmills, like the mountains of lithium ion batteries for cars we are about to start producing, are both green energy delusions, with no end of life likelihood to be repurposed/recycled in the real world.

If I've read this thread right, the batteries are just being stacked up somewhere and not recycled because it costs more than the original battery with the current recycling technology. So I guess every EV being sold is being sold for 25k less than what it ought to be?

Jack Boyett said:

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If I've read this thread right, the batteries are just being stacked up somewhere and not recycled because it costs more than the original battery with the current recycling technology. So I guess every EV being sold is being sold for 25k less than what it ought to be?

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Why do you say that? Yes, the materials/cost to produce the battery are not (essentially ever) recouped by the mfg, but the same is the case for ICE vehicle engines (when a car is sent to the crusher/recycled it doesn't really go out the door back to Ford/GM/Toyota to be stamped into a new one). It's very, very mechanically difficult to separate all of the cells and then metallurgical components in a LI battery. They also aren't actually dry, so the liquid/gel etc. is also hazardous to handle. Even far left groups realize it is...a huge challenge;

Quote:

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Globally, fewer than a dozen facilities recycle EV batteries today, with a combined material processing capacity of less than 100,000 metric tons annually. For 50 kWh batteries with a gravimetric energy density of 150 watt-hours per kilogram, this recycling capacity corresponds to 300,000 EV batteries per year, or roughly 10 percent of global annual EV sales today, but 1 percent of expected annual sales in the early 2030s (BNEF 2019). In the United States, such facilities are especially limited in both number and processing capacity.

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They really dream of a solution where used car batteries are just repurposed to something else (non-automotive). That sounds good but exactly how many of us want to put an old battery in the garage for storage etc? It still has to be scrapped eventually.

nortex97 said:

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Jack Boyett said:

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If I've read this thread right, the batteries are just being stacked up somewhere and not recycled because it costs more than the original battery with the current recycling technology. So I guess every EV being sold is being sold for 25k less than what it ought to be?

---

Why do you say that? Yes, the materials/cost to produce the battery are not (essentially ever) recouped by the mfg, but the same is the case for ICE vehicle engines (when a car is sent to the crusher/recycled it doesn't really go out the door back to Ford/GM/Toyota to be stamped into a new one). It's very, very mechanically difficult to separate all of the cells and then metallurgical components in a LI battery. They also aren't actually dry, so the liquid/gel etc. is also hazardous to handle. Even far left groups realize it is...a huge challenge;

Quote:

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Globally, fewer than a dozen facilities recycle EV batteries today, with a combined material processing capacity of less than 100,000 metric tons annually. For 50 kWh batteries with a gravimetric energy density of 150 watt-hours per kilogram, this recycling capacity corresponds to 300,000 EV batteries per year, or roughly 10 percent of global annual EV sales today, but 1 percent of expected annual sales in the early 2030s (BNEF 2019). In the United States, such facilities are especially limited in both number and processing capacity.

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They really dream of a solution where used car batteries are just repurposed to something else (non-automotive). That sounds good but exactly how many of us want to put an old battery in the garage for storage etc? It still has to be scrapped eventually.

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Can we at least turn them into ammo, like depleted uranium rounds??

At least the process of getting the lithium isn't bad for the environment.

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/14/electric-cost-lithium-mining-decarbonasation-salt-flats-chile

https://www.wired.com/story/cars-going-electric-what-happens-used-batteries/

Seems like a decent article summarizing the fact we don't really have a great plan at the moment, as well as the challenges that exist that are contributing to why there is no good plan yet. References to potential regulation might suggest the price on EV's will go up, not down, if they bake the recycling cost into initial purchase price (if responsibility falls to the automaker).

If there is money to be made in recycling, then I'm sure recycling will be maximized - but currently it sounds like there isn't that much of a financial incentive to recycle, or it can't currently be done economically anyway, which means there is work to be done.

It's not the same as an ICE engine at all. A junk engine is worth 5 or 10 cents per pound for scrap steel (has a positive value) even at the end of life. A junk EV battery is a liability unless you are going to just pile them up for perpetuity which you can't. Will this anticipated future recycling tech be able to change this negative value to break even or positive in the future? The recycling cost is, whatever it's going to be, is not included in the price of the car and it eventually will need to be.

With space-x, virgin galactic, etc sending rockets into space fairly cheaply now, we should look into what my t.u. Longhorn, greenie, lefty HS physics teacher (who also happened to support nuclear energy) suggested for nuclear waste: shoot it into space.

We've gotten pretty good at shooting **** into space without it falling back down on us. Just need to do it cheaply and shoot it in a direction where it won't hit anything for a couple hundred years. It's not hard.

Jack Cheese said:

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With space-x, virgin galactic, etc sending rockets into space fairly cheaply now, we should look into what my t.u. Longhorn, greenie, lefty HS physics teacher (who also happened to support nuclear energy) suggested for nuclear waste: shoot it into space.

We've gotten pretty good at shooting **** into space without it falling back down on us. Just need to do it cheaply and shoot it in a direction where it won't hit anything for a couple hundred years. It's not hard.

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How are we ever gonna come up with/disturb Godzilla if we never dump a bunch of radioactive stuff into the ocean?

As mentioned above-one alternative being developed in China

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33670482/nio-swappable-batteries-lease/

You guys are crazy. Or just too stubborn to read.


When automobiles first hit the scene in the 1880's there was no one recycling anything. No junkyards existed. No one was parting out cars for parts or reuse. Today, every metal part of the car is reused. Every bit.

Of course RIGHT NOW we don't have a very good system of recycling batteries. There are some facilities doing it. And there are plenty of really smart people figuring out how to do it faster, cheaper, and better. There are new facilities currently being built for the sole purpose of recycling lithium batteries.

Lithium has a value. It is recyclable. There are CEO's tripping over each other to build factories that will extract that precious metal and charge us for it.

What part of these ACTUAL FACTS makes you think there will be mountains of old worn out batteries ruining your hunting lease?

Lithium is a finite resource. It is difficult and highly destructive to mine. Pretty soon the only Lithium available for new batteries will be locked inside old batteries. This includes every laptop and cellphone and any other rechargeable electronic device made in the last 20 years. It will be in a continual loop of use/reuse. Not in a battery junkyard.

Batteries will be the new catilytic converter. Places will pay you for old dead batteries, and crackheads will steal them from you.

AggieFrog said:

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Cromagnum said:

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You know what doesn't see a 200% drop in fuel economy over its lifetime? Internal combustion engines.

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Current EV batteries should last the life span of the average car (13-17 years and 200k+ miles) before needing to be replaced and with very little of the maintenance required by ICE.

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Should? A friend has already had his 7 year old Tesla battery replaced once and from what I'm hearing, the current average is half of what your lower end estimate is, not anywhere near of what you speak of.

Go look at prices of 5-7 year old EVs that have not had battery changes.

nortex97 said:

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How are we ever gonna come up with/disturb Godzilla if we never dump a bunch of radioactive stuff into the ocean?

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That's fair.

91AggieLawyer said:

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AggieFrog said:

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Cromagnum said:

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You know what doesn't see a 200% drop in fuel economy over its lifetime? Internal combustion engines.

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Current EV batteries should last the life span of the average car (13-17 years and 200k+ miles) before needing to be replaced and with very little of the maintenance required by ICE.

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Should? A friend has already had his 7 year old Tesla battery replaced once and from what I'm hearing, the current average is half of what your lower end estimate is, not anywhere near of what you speak of.

Go look at prices of 5-7 year old EVs that have not had battery changes.

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I've only heard good things about Tesla battery life, and turns out they have a good warranty as well.


5-7 year old Teslas are still expensive AF
https://www.tesla.com/inventory/used/ms?Year=2017,2016,2015&arrangeby=plh&zip=77008

91AggieLawyer said:

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AggieFrog said:

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Cromagnum said:

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You know what doesn't see a 200% drop in fuel economy over its lifetime? Internal combustion engines.

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Current EV batteries should last the life span of the average car (13-17 years and 200k+ miles) before needing to be replaced and with very little of the maintenance required by ICE.

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Should? A friend has already had his 7 year old Tesla battery replaced once and from what I'm hearing, the current average is half of what your lower end estimate is, not anywhere near of what you speak of.

Go look at prices of 5-7 year old EVs that have not had battery changes.

---

The battery technology has steadily improved. The current 75kWh models are supposed to be able to last in the 400-500k range. Will it? who knows. The first few models understandably had more issues than newer cars.

I do think the potential of the battery failure does depress the value of cars some.

I did a quick search on the Model X P90D. It was 95k when new. They seem to be going for 65-75k used. Only losing 20-30% of its value over five years is absolutely incredible value retention, especially when the newer ones have significant tech upgrades.

A 2016 Porsche Cayenne GTS was about 95-100k new and used prices are 44-65k. So the Tesla retained value signficantly more than the most comparable Porsche.

For those of us who have lived in Texas for more than a few summers, I think it's safe to say we appreciate that batteries in cars here last at the lower end of the average, regardless of the type of car/battery. No battery chemistry does 'well' sweltering around 90-110 degrees on an extended basis (for 3-5 months a year).

Jack Cheese said:

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With space-x, virgin galactic, etc sending rockets into space fairly cheaply now, we should look into what my t.u. Longhorn, greenie, lefty HS physics teacher (who also happened to support nuclear energy) suggested for nuclear waste: shoot it into space.

We've gotten pretty good at shooting **** into space without it falling back down on us. Just need to do it cheaply and shoot it in a direction where it won't hit anything for a couple hundred years. It's not hard.

---

Current cost to get something into space is about $10,000 per pound. A Tesla battery pack weighs 992 pounds.

That's not cheap. I know NASA hopes to reduce the cost to $100/pound, but that's likely a dream at this point.

Also, it would cost substantially more to get it out of the Earth's orbit.

I think the reference about shooting it into the sun was about nuclear waste, not battery packs.

Supposedly, SpaceX could get launch costs to LEO down to around 20 bucks a pound (or more with inflation), but any payload with hazardous radioactive waste as a payload would probably also be 90 percent a 'safe' container. It was probably just stated in jest.

nortex97 said:

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For those of us who have lived in Texas for more than a few summers, I think it's safe to say we appreciate that batteries in cars here last at the lower end of the average, regardless of the type of car/battery. No battery chemistry does 'well' sweltering around 90-110 degrees on an extended basis (for 3-5 months a year).

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My understanding is that the cold is way worse than the heat on these things. Regardless, the car regulates the temp of the batteries, hot or cold.

Guitarsoup said:

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nortex97 said:

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For those of us who have lived in Texas for more than a few summers, I think it's safe to say we appreciate that batteries in cars here last at the lower end of the average, regardless of the type of car/battery. No battery chemistry does 'well' sweltering around 90-110 degrees on an extended basis (for 3-5 months a year).

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My understanding is that the cold is way worse than the heat on these things. Regardless, the car regulates the temp of the batteries, hot or cold.

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Well, you'd be wrong to put too much faith in this, long term, imho. We used to store batteries in the fridge in the army just to keep them fresh as long as possible. Cold slows down corrosion, basically. But, heat allows for more rapid energy extraction, so it is a double edged sword. Put a Tesla in ludicrous or plaid mode or whatever, and the battery is about to blast past the 'this thing might last 10 years' dream in a hurry. Active cooling when it's parked outside, all summer (if it even works, which I am dubious about), also means that the battery is constantly being used/worn down/degraded.

Battery thermal management is very complex, mechanically (running glycol tubes through/around each cell), and another reason BEV's are also very difficult to disassemble/recycle easily.

nortex97 said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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nortex97 said:

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For those of us who have lived in Texas for more than a few summers, I think it's safe to say we appreciate that batteries in cars here last at the lower end of the average, regardless of the type of car/battery. No battery chemistry does 'well' sweltering around 90-110 degrees on an extended basis (for 3-5 months a year).

---

My understanding is that the cold is way worse than the heat on these things. Regardless, the car regulates the temp of the batteries, hot or cold.

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Well, you'd be wrong to put too much faith in this, long term, imho. We used to store batteries in the fridge in the army just to keep them fresh as long as possible. Cold slows down corrosion, basically. But, heat allows for more rapid energy extraction, so it is a double edged sword. Put a Tesla in ludicrous or plaid mode or whatever, and the battery is about to blast past the 'this thing might last 10 years' dream in a hurry. Active cooling when it's parked outside, all summer (if it even works, which I am dubious about), also means that the battery is constantly being used/worn down/degraded.

Battery thermal management is very complex, mechanically (running glycol tubes through/around each cell), and another reason BEV's are also very difficult to disassemble/recycle easily.

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I don't think that you were storing the same type of batteries that Tesla uses. We used to have a battery drawer in the fridge, too. Pretty much everywhere you look now says it is unnecessary and doesn't really do anything for modern batteries.

But a fridge at 35 degrees and sub zero temps are very different things. In any event, the battery chemistry of what you and I both put in the fridge isn't the same thing as what is in a car.