Buying a classic car as an investment ?

4,637 Views | 46 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by The Lost
aggie_fan13
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AG
thoughts ?
some men you just cant reach ...
Duncan Idaho
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Might as well but a horse as an investment
Guitarsoup
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My FIL made a pretty good investment in his 67 Shelby GT 500 for $25k in 97.

If he put that in AAPL then, that money would be worth $7.7mm.


Cars may not be the best investment.
CanyonAg77
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It's like buying art for an investment. Highly risky. So if you have spare money, and it's something you really like, buy it and enjoy it. Admire it and play with it during your lifetime, and if the value goes up, your heirs will thank you.

As said above, the same money in a mutual fund will return a lot more, and you don't have to pay to store it for 40 years.
dubi
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AG
In
ac04
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if you want a classic car buy one, but don't kid yourself about it being an investment.
AgEng06
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ac04 said:

if you want a classic car buy one, but don't kid yourself about it being an investment.

This. Same idea as when I tell my wife buying another gun is an investment...
Complete Idiot
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Have a friend who bought a mid 80's Porsche for $18K maybe 7 or 8 years ago and it's now worth around $35K, or so he says. I guess it's possible with a lot of research and understanding car market trends.
91AggieLawyer
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Quote:

If he put that in AAPL then, that money would be worth $7.7mm.

No one was buying Apple stock in 1997. A more realistic gauge would be an S&P 500 fund. If he did that with 25K and left it there, he would have 77K. If he had traded out during low market periods in 2000 and again in 2007, he would probably have about double that. A 25K down payment on a 100K rent house in a decent area would see a house now worth about 350K with a minimal, if any, loan payoff. This is probably the better comparison because, like with a car, there is maintenance and upkeep.

So, depending on risk, you're looking at a 3x-15x return for this example (20 years). Can ANY car, other than Bullitt Mustang (or something like that) match that?
robertcope
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It's easy in hindsight, of course. I should have bought a lot of cars during the last crash. I'd be rich today! Except I don't sell my cars, so... I'd just be paying a lot in insurance.

My take is, if you want a classic car, buy it. You _might_ not lose money.

I bought an NSX rather than a new Mustang or whatever. I figure the odds are pretty good I won't loose as much as I would buying a new car, which is a guaranteed huge loss. And it's a cooler car. I was going to spend the money either way.
An Ag in CO
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Quote:

So should you be trying to get into the vintage-car game? In a word: no. No way. Absolutely not. Here's why:

1. Lots of Idling

The Pebble Beach sales, like most marquee car auctions, are an exception. Only about 3 percent of vintage cars sell at auction and they are the best of the best. It's like watching a super-cut of holes-in-one and deciding to try your hand at golf.

In reality, values for scads of vintage cars have been relatively stable for years. Detroit classics from the 1950s, for example, have mostly idled in the past decade, according to Hagerty Insurance, which tracks the values of the various old rides it underwrites. The same goes for muscle cars and so-called affordable collectibles like the Triumph TR6 and the Volkswagen Beetle.

2. A Tendency to Stall

Rolling assets are not in any way recession-proof, no matter what the exotic car dealer tells you. In the 2008 downturn, the only upside to owning a vintage Mercedes 300 with gull-wing doors was feeling slightly less frightened to actually drive it. From the third quarter of 2008 to the third quarter of 2009, the value of "blue-chip" collectibles like "the Gullwing" slid by 19 percent, according to Hagerty. That's more than twice as much as the Standard & Poor's 500 Index. A sampling of vintage Ferraris in that window fared even worse, plummeting 25 percent.

3. Running Hot

Post-recession, the rebound was swift. A lot of vintage-car gurus believe that the run-up in prices since the recession is officially in "frothy" territory. A Hagerty monthly index of expert sentiment on the market has dropped 9 percent in the past year.

Rick Drewry, senior claims specialist of collector cars at American Modern Insurance Group, said the auctions are starting to attract investors who don't know much about cars at all. "I'm starting to see cars that weren't ever that good go up in value," he explained. "For the longest time, they were throw-aways." In short, we may be approaching peak Porsche.

4. Slow and S****

Here's an uncomfortable truth: Classic cars are kind of awful -- at least relatively speaking 1 . Sure, they are moving time capsules of miraculous engineering and most of them have swoon-worthy looks. But would you race a 50-year-old road bicycle or do your taxes on a computer from 1965? In terms of going fast and handling the curves, today's most pedestrian vehicles are far more capable than almost all vintage rides.

Take that Ferrari 365 from 1972. It gets to 60 miles-per-hour in about 7 seconds and has a top speed of 163. Today's sportiest Ford Focus puts out similar numbers with eight fewer cylinders, a bunch more airbags, and a back-up camera to boot. Sure, it doesn't have an 8-track, but it also doesn't have six separate carburetors to tune.

5. If You Must Buy

If absolutely none of these facts sway you, at least go for the German and Italian brands. Avoid anything manufactured by the Americans or the Brits. Sure, they are hot at the moment and tend to crash harder, but the economic magic behind companies like Porsche and Ferrari is on the supply side. They simply didn't make that many cars, which means that when markets get hot they have a bit of a turbo effect.

When shopping for your dream car, consider models from the 1980s and 1990s. They were the ones on bedroom posters of Generation Xers who are entering in their prime earning years and they are just now starting to appreciate accordingly. A Lamborghini Countach from 1989 is the perfect example. "For a kid in the '80s, that car was like a unicorn," Drewry said.

Finally, if you're bent on buying old cars, get as many as you can afford. Classic vehicles are like tiny tech companies: it's very difficult to tell which ones are going to take off. Just don't forget about the management fees (read: mechanics).

That's from a 2015 Bloomberg article.
Duncan Idaho
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Replied to the wrong guy.
IDAGG
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Complete Idiot said:

Have a friend who bought a mid 80's Porsche for $18K maybe 7 or 8 years ago and it's now worth around $35K, or so he says. I guess it's possible with a lot of research and understanding car market trends.
The air cooled Porsches have increased their value considerably. They are considered collectible now and a lot of the purists don't like the newer water cooled versions that started in the late 90s.
Furlock Bones
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AG
whale tail porsches
BrazosDog02
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I have a 1970 442 (holiday coupe). It is cool as ****, but it is NOT an investment. For one, I have no intentions of selling. It's STILL in the process of being completely restored. Its in no way practical for anything by today's standards.

It has a 7.5L V8 (bored over) that requires 93 octane to run properly.
It gets about 9 MPG if you keep your foot out of it
No ABS.
Independent shoulder/waist belts.
Carburetor (do we need to say any more about this?)
Oh and it's heavy as f---.

Most of all, even Dodge could put together a 7.5L V8 that would smoke everything on the road. This one will not. At one time it would, but not by today's standards.

It's also, frankly, not that reliable. These cars actually require 'tune ups'. It's not like your Honda you just drop off at the dealer every 100,000 miles for a fluid change and some new parts. It requires carburetor adjustments, and a myriad of other services depending on the systems installed in order to keep it running right and reliably.

Let's face it, you aren't going to get what you put into the vehicle and there is no other value to it other than 'it was your dads' or 'its a cool ride'.


BrazosDog02
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Complete Idiot said:

Have a friend who bought a mid 80's Porsche for $18K maybe 7 or 8 years ago and it's now worth around $35K, or so he says. I guess it's possible with a lot of research and understanding car market trends.
It ain't worth **** if he hasn't sold it.
CanyonAg77
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Bloomberg is spot on, except they forget to factor in age. Most collector cars go up in value about 40 years after they're made. Guys who couldn't afford a muscle car when they were 16 in 1970, often try to buy one when they hit 50-60 and have a lot of disposable income. When they start hitting 75+, the interest drops off.
Duncan Idaho
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I love my triumph. It is a lot of fun to drive it around the neighborhood and on the twisties. But damn it is a terrible car (just like every car from before the introduction of the OBD2 reader and some kind of efi), it is slow, it is uncomfortable but it is easy and fun to work on and I can point to it and say "I made that".

I have yet to get it perfectly dialed in.

The only good thing classics cars have is that they are better looking for the most part.
Duncan Idaho
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CanyonAg77 said:

Bloomberg is spot on, except they forget to factor in age. Most collector cars go up in value about 40 years after they're made. Guys who couldn't afford a muscle car when they were 16 in 1970, often try to buy one when they hit 50-60 and have a lot of disposable income. When they start hitting 75+, the interest drops off.

I was updating my will and couldn't figure out who I would leave the car to. My brothers are too old (and I don't trust them to take care of it) my nieces and nephews are idiots that coolant drive a stick and too young to take on the responsibility of owning a 45 year old car. All of my friends are too fat to fit in it

So I am sure it will get sold.
Martin Q. Blank
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It is an investment in that it won't depreciate like an equally valuable new car would. But it won't appreciate like a better investment would.
Trinity Ag
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S
Complete Idiot said:

Have a friend who bought a mid 80's Porsche for $18K maybe 7 or 8 years ago and it's now worth around $35K, or so he says. I guess it's possible with a lot of research and understanding car market trends.
Am I your friend?

I bought a '88 911 for $18.5k in 2012, and sold it two weeks ago for $35k.

Of course, I also put about $8k into it (new top, new seats, fuel lines, sensors, gaskets, filters, A/C parts, etc -- nothing major) -- plus about 50-60 hours of my labor in that time.

If that had been work done at a Porsche mechanic, you'd be pretty much breaking even.

And that was a car that basically doubled in value in 6 years -- and good luck picking the next make/model that is going to do that.
lb3
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BrazosDog02
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Duncan Idaho said:

I love my triumph. It is a lot of fun to drive it around the neighborhood and on the twisties. But damn it is a terrible car (just like every car from before the introduction of the OBD2 reader and some kind of efi), it is slow, it is uncomfortable but it is easy and fun to work on and I can point to it and say "I made that".

I have yet to get it perfectly dialed in.

The only good thing classics cars have is that they are better looking for the most part.
Ever wonder if some day someone will say "Damn, when I was a kid, I had a *****in' 2018 F150. Man, they don't make em like that anymore"?
The Lost
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BrazosDog02 said:

Duncan Idaho said:

I love my triumph. It is a lot of fun to drive it around the neighborhood and on the twisties. But damn it is a terrible car (just like every car from before the introduction of the OBD2 reader and some kind of efi), it is slow, it is uncomfortable but it is easy and fun to work on and I can point to it and say "I made that".

I have yet to get it perfectly dialed in.

The only good thing classics cars have is that they are better looking for the most part.
Ever wonder if some day someone will say "Damn, when I was a kid, I had a *****in' 2018 F150. Man, they don't make em like that anymore"?

lol, this market will get even more jacked by autonomous cars if we're thinking that far out. I think the tweener stage we're in now will not carry much weight imo. I'd want something from like the 2000-2010 range. dealing with the electronics will be a beotch that far away. Fun thought though.
Duncan Idaho
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I always laugh when people say "they don't make 'em like they used"

The only proper response is "I know. Isn't it great!"
Mookie
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AG
If anyone would like to invest in a 1988 mazda rx7 convertible I have one that I'm looking for some VC money for.
BrazosDog02
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Duncan Idaho said:

I always laugh when people say "they don't make 'em like they used"

The only proper response is "I know. Isn't it great!"
Yeah, me too. LOL. It really is!

We tend to forget about how easy it is to own a vehicle now...probably because we literally have to do nothing with it except change oil. People are not nearly as 'connected' to their vehicle like they used to be because, frankly, they don't have to be. It's no surprise people don't maintain or know about the vehicle they drive.
aggiepaintrain
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AG
my 97 FJ80 with 114k is looking gooood
cha-ching
FJB
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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Gull Wing Mercedes 56 at Ramstein Air Base - $6,000 .

Today 750,000 to $1million !

Who knew !
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
IDAGG
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CanyonAg77 said:

Bloomberg is spot on, except they forget to factor in age. Most collector cars go up in value about 40 years after they're made. Guys who couldn't afford a muscle car when they were 16 in 1970, often try to buy one when they hit 50-60 and have a lot of disposable income. When they start hitting 75+, the interest drops off.
This is absolutely true. As lb3 also mentions below, which supports your post, as people age out into old age their dream cars from their youth lose popularity to the next generation's dream cars. The Deuce Coups, and others like that are losing their owners to old age. Think American Graffiti, that was set in the early 60s. People that were teenagers/young adults then are mid 70s now..or dead. Hell, I am an old and I have no desire for one. Now a late 60s SS 396 etc would be cool. But 10 years from now as my generation ages out they will lose popularity as well.
Trinity Ag
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IDAGG said:

CanyonAg77 said:

Bloomberg is spot on, except they forget to factor in age. Most collector cars go up in value about 40 years after they're made. Guys who couldn't afford a muscle car when they were 16 in 1970, often try to buy one when they hit 50-60 and have a lot of disposable income. When they start hitting 75+, the interest drops off.
This is absolutely true. As lb3 also mentions below, which supports your post, as people age out into old age their dream cars from their youth lose popularity to the next generation's dream cars. The Deuce Coups, and others like that are losing their owners to old age. Think American Graffiti, that was set in the early 60s. People that were teenagers/young adults then are mid 70s now..or dead. Hell, I am an old and I have no desire for one. Now a late 60s SS 396 etc would be cool. But 10 years from now as my generation ages out they will lose popularity as well.
The 40 year point today is the "malaise" era of cars -- and the few decent ones are bringing good money: Bandit Trans Ams are probably leading the pack, plus all Air-cooled Porsches.

Given the crappiness of 75-80 cars, the early 70s are hot. Anything with chrome bumpers. Vettes, Camaros, etc.

Anything Italian bodied with Detroit engines: Panteras, Jensen Intercepters, etc.

One thing interesting is that Millenials love analogue things -- like vinyl records. So pre-digital cars may have a lasting appeal.

BMW E30s are probably a good buy. M3s are already skyrocketing. Downmarket E30 like 325is have a cult following, but are still reasonable. Convertible E30s with original, non-galactic miles. Especially with Manual transmissions. 635s. 928s. 944s -- the 80s teen movie cars. Even Ferrari Mondials are decently affordable.



FLATOUT
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AG
It obviously depends on what you purchased the car for.

If you're paying retail and waiting for them to go up, good luck. If you know what's hot and you can get a great deal on the buy side you can go make some money.

I have done very well buying and selling vehicles but I have been burned a couple of times too. It really just comes down to how well you know the market, and how well you did when you bought it.

Some cars I did well on:

1992 Viper bought for 28K sold for 56K
2006 Ford GT bought for 195K sold for 240K
2008 ACR Viper bought for 60K sold for 67K

Cars I currently have that were purchased for well and are going up or I "feel" I have quite a bit of equity in:

1991 Barn Find Syclone, 3,000 miles with no owners. I think I'm +25K in this truck
2017 GTS-R Viper I think I'm +40K in this one.

Cars I didn't do well on:

2014 Viper TA bought new sold at a 10K loss
2015 Viper GT bought new sold for what I bought it for but put a lot of dollar bucks in it.
1993 Acura NSX I think I will break even/ make a little/ lose a little (got greedy and paid to close to the retail number)
1996 Grand Sport Corvette made a whopping $500 (market was softer than I thought it was)

If you don't eat, sleep, and breath the types of collector cars you are trying to flip your chances to make money are very risky. If you are in the auto business or REALLY know a specific platform make all the money you can and get to drive some cool cars in the process.

Pahdz
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Speaking of, we need some updates and pics on that Syclone
Guitarsoup
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Well, my father-in-law is selling his 67 Shelby GT500 if anyone is interested. Located in ABQ, NM. New paint last year. Has the 428 with two four barrel carbs.





"Famous" for being the car in the CCTV video of the kidnapping in Charlie's Angels with Cameron Diaz and Drew Barrymore.



dubi
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