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The Clown and the Candyman (Dean Corll/Gacey)

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Jugstore Cowboy
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In reply to Stat Monitor Repairman • 7:13p, 8/8/21
AG
He moved around a lot. He obviously prowled the Heights, but wasn't living there - at least not after his mother moved away. The first time his paid butt buddy walked in on him abusing kids, it was in an apartment on Yorktown that's still there.

I'm gonna see if I can post some more screencaps from the Chronicle article that I clipped the addresses from. It's creepy reading.
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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In reply to Jugstore Cowboy • 7:18p, 8/8/21
He also lived in an apartment off Magnum Road as I recall.
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BSME83
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In reply to Stat Monitor Repairman • 1:36a, 8/9/21
AG
Here's 505 W 22nd (Corll Candy) in 1966 plus 444 W 21st (Dean Corll Apartment) in 1966. This is the clearest picture I could find, the area was pretty much the same from the 1950's to the 1980's.
https://i.imgur.com/4gOuaYt.jpg

Today:
https://i.imgur.com/D0W14zu.jpg
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BSME83
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1:39a, 8/9/21
AG
Sorry, I guess Rookies can only post links to photos. Pretty sure I did it right, they showed up before I posted it.
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Keegan99
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In reply to Stat Monitor Repairman • 7:19a, 8/9/21
AG
How does that conversation with the owners go down?

"Hey we think kids sadistically murdered decades ago might be buried on your property. Mind if we take a look with ground-penetrating radar?"
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Milwaukees Best Light
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8:29a, 8/9/21
AG
Do you think they argued over whether or not it was 'the heights'?
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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In reply to BSME83 • 12:38p, 8/9/21
Great work man.
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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2:21p, 8/9/21
Bottom line on this case for me is that Elmer Wayne Henley has claimed for years that there are more unidentified victims out there. I don't know how you get around that fact.
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W
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2:28p, 8/9/21
AG
yes, the presumption is that Corll was busy before his 2 accomplices joined the operation.

from somewhere he gained, um, knowledge that he needed assistance with the abductions, killings, and/or disposals
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Sea Speed
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2:55p, 8/9/21
AG
Do yall think a serial killer like this could do it today? I just don't think that it would be possible with the crazy technological advancements to get away with this stuff for so long. Hell, not just this style, but any serial killing.
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TXAG 05
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In reply to Sea Speed • 3:07p, 8/9/21
AG
Sea Speed said:
Do yall think a serial killer like this could do it today? I just don't think that it would be possible with the crazy technological advancements to get away with this stuff for so long. Hell, not just this style, but any serial killing.


That's a good question. It would definitely be harder. If I remember correctly, they assumed a lot of those kids ran away from home and just gave up. Today, people go nuts if someone goes 30 min without answering their phone.

Plus there are cameras everywhere now.
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Sea Speed
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In reply to TXAG 05 • 3:10p, 8/9/21
AG
Yep and countless other ways to track someone digitally.

And irt the runaway thing, I recall that being an excuse the cops gave out of incompetence and laziness. But yes, they def used that.

I dont think a serial killer outside of gang killers could really get away with it these days. Especially because the fetish is often much more than murder, which leaves the possibility for more evidence.
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Chewy
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3:13p, 8/9/21
AG
Mass killings are the new killing because it's so much harder to be a serial killer due to technology.

Look at what Ted Bundy got away with. Mainly because there was no standard data base to share information.
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Sea Speed
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In reply to Chewy • 3:23p, 8/9/21
AG
Yea I guess the ones that have the sick sexual fetishes are caught before they really start to accrue a body count. Most mass shootings don't seem to be committed by the stereotypical serial killer demographic though.
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W
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3:29p, 8/9/21
AG
one exception...the Long Island serial killer was operating in 2010 & 2011. Has not been caught.

there were a lot of phones, cameras, and DNA technology 10 years ago
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Sea Speed
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In reply to W • 3:32p, 8/9/21
AG
Interesting, I had not heard of that one before. Will check it out.
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lb sand
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In reply to W • 3:37p, 8/9/21
AG
I started that podcast last week. Very interesting so far
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bmc13
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3:57p, 8/9/21
AG
this guy is another fairly recent one. he would go to different areas of the country to find his victims.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Keyes
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BCG Disciple
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4:08p, 8/9/21
AG
No doubt bodies are buried around that 22nd st home. His confirmed victim's didn't start until 1970. You have candy store workers that observed him digging on site as early as 1968 (after the army), with the same plastic wrap is other victims were wrapped in.

Not sure what this does to the value of a home, but it can't be a good thing.
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sts7049
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4:17p, 8/9/21
AG
those townhouses there now are ugly anyway
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Chewy
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In reply to Sea Speed • 4:20p, 8/9/21
AG
I'm sure it's a different profile but crazy is crazy. People get different highs. Back then it was probably more of a slow burn because that's how society operated. They enjoyed seeing the blurb in the news over multiple days.

These days most are into speed and instant gratification. Quick and cheap thrill over and over. People also tend to mimic what's getting the attention at the time as well.

Seems the media is more interested in promoting instant numbers over slow numbers these days. I'm sure there's still serial killers out there but they're more likely to get caught sooner than later and don't get the attention the mass killers get. That slow burn high is gone to a degree.

I'm no brain expert but anyone willing to take the life of another human is crazy. Especially those that are willing to take the lives of multiple humans they have no relationship with.
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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In reply to BCG Disciple • 4:24p, 8/9/21
BCG Disciple said:
No doubt bodies are buried around that 22nd st home. His confirmed victim's didn't start until 1970. You have candy store workers that observed him digging on site as early as 1968 (after the army), with the same plastic wrap is other victims were wrapped in.
Yeah man. That was my takeaway.

I can't drive by that area without thinking about that case.
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P.H. Dexippus
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In reply to Chewy • 4:41p, 8/9/21
AG
Chewy said:
anyone willing to take the life of another human is crazy. Especially those that are willing to take the lives of multiple humans they have no relationship with.

That may be bit overbroad (think armed forces), but in this context, maybe so. The term sociopath comes to mind.
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Keegan99
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In reply to Stat Monitor Repairman • 4:44p, 8/9/21
AG
Stat Monitor Repairman said:
BCG Disciple said:
No doubt bodies are buried around that 22nd st home. His confirmed victim's didn't start until 1970. You have candy store workers that observed him digging on site as early as 1968 (after the army), with the same plastic wrap is other victims were wrapped in.
Yeah man. That was my takeaway.

I can't drive by that area without thinking about that case.


Those are presumably pier-and-beam construction, too. So doubtful the ground was heavily disturbed over the years.
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SidsBurnerAccount
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In reply to Sea Speed • 4:48p, 8/9/21
Sea Speed said:
Do yall think a serial killer like this could do it today? I just don't think that it would be possible with the crazy technological advancements to get away with this stuff for so long. Hell, not just this style, but any serial killing.
Yes. Evil finds a way. I went to high school with a guy who became a serial killer in Houston. Took a lucky break to catch him. There's lot of people in the world that won't be noticed if they disappear. Sad, but true in my opinion.
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SidsBurnerAccount
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In reply to Chewy • 4:50p, 8/9/21
Chewy said:
Mass killings are the new killing because it's so much harder to be a serial killer due to technology.

Look at what Ted Bundy got away with. Mainly because there was no standard data base to share information.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/11/27/the-serial-killer-detector

This guy has been trying to change that.
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Sea Speed
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In reply to SidsBurnerAccount • 4:51p, 8/9/21
AG
Yea you start killing homeless and the like and it takes a lot longer to notice. But most of the killers from his era seemed to kille youngish boys and girls, not transients and vagrants. No one is killing dozens of young boys in America today.

Problem with serial killers is that we probably don't know of their existence until after their murders are over and they are caught or are close to it.
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Keegan99
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4:56p, 8/9/21
AG
A serial killer today would be almost wholly dependent on the indifference of law enforcement and a refusal to investigate. Which is exactly what allowed the candy man to operate.

From the New Yorker article:

Quote:
In August of 2010, Hargrove noticed a pattern of murders in Lake County, Indiana, which includes the city of Gary. Between 1980 and 2008, fifteen women had been strangled. Many of the bodies had been found in vacant houses. Hargrove wrote to the Gary police, describing the murders and including a spreadsheet of their circumstances. "Could these cases reflect the activity of one or more serial killers in your area?" he asked.

The police department rebuffed him; a lieutenant replied that there were no unsolved serial killings in Gary. (The Department of Justice advises police departments to tell citizens when a serial killer is at large, but some places keep the information secret.) Hargrove was indignant. "I left messages for months," he said. "I sent registered letters to the chief of police and the mayor." Eventually, he heard from a deputy coroner, who had also started to suspect that there was a serial killer in Gary. She had tried to speak with the police, but they had refused her. After reviewing Hargrove's cases, she added three more victims to his list.

Four years later, the police in Hammond, a town next to Gary, got a call about a disturbance at a Motel 6, where they found a dead woman in a bathtub. Her name was Afrikka Hardy, and she was nineteen years old. "They make an arrest of a guy named Darren Vann, and, as so often happens in these cases, he says, 'You got me,' " Hargrove said. "Over several days, he takes police to abandoned buildings where they recover the bodies of six women, all of them strangled, just like the pattern we were seeing in the algorithm." Vann had killed his first woman in the early nineties. In 2009, he went to jail for rape, and the killings stopped. When he got out, in 2013, Hargrove said, "he picked up where he'd left off."
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SidsBurnerAccount
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5:12p, 8/9/21
Unfortunately, I think there's plenty of indifference for serial killers to get away with it.
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Chewy
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In reply to P.H. Dexippus • 5:22p, 8/9/21
AG
Yeah. Certainly didn't mean military or even law enforcement. For the most part those are the terms they sign up. There's some evil ones in there but for the most part they're all solid individuals doing a job.

I'm talking about ordinary citizens who take the life of someone truly innocent they have no issue with. That person is some serious level of crazy.
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Jugstore Cowboy
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In reply to Keegan99 • 8:29p, 8/9/21
AG
Keegan99 said:
Stat Monitor Repairman said:
BCG Disciple said:
No doubt bodies are buried around that 22nd st home. His confirmed victim's didn't start until 1970. You have candy store workers that observed him digging on site as early as 1968 (after the army), with the same plastic wrap is other victims were wrapped in.
Yeah man. That was my takeaway.

I can't drive by that area without thinking about that case.


Those are presumably pier-and-beam construction, too. So doubtful the ground was heavily disturbed over the years.
I don't know a ton about construction, but wouldn't there have been some excavation when the old pier and beam homes got replaced by slabs? I'm sure they don't dig that deep and bodies could still be further down. I also kind of have the feeling that those fine skilled craftsmen I see working on townhome construction sites wouldn't bother investigating if they dug up or backed over some decomposed lump wrapped in plastic. Would have gone right into the big rental dumpsters.
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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In reply to Keegan99 • 9:47p, 8/9/21
Keegan99 said:
Stat Monitor Repairman said:
BCG Disciple said:
No doubt bodies are buried around that 22nd st home. His confirmed victim's didn't start until 1970. You have candy store workers that observed him digging on site as early as 1968 (after the army), with the same plastic wrap is other victims were wrapped in.
Yeah man. That was my takeaway.

I can't drive by that area without thinking about that case.


Those are presumably pier-and-beam construction, too. So doubtful the ground was heavily disturbed over the years.
You right man.

HCAD says foundation is 'crawl space.'

I guess that means pier and beam.

2000 build.
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Milwaukees Best Light
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In reply to Jugstore Cowboy • 10:26p, 8/9/21
AG
Harry Lime said:
Keegan99 said:
Stat Monitor Repairman said:
BCG Disciple said:
No doubt bodies are buried around that 22nd st home. His confirmed victim's didn't start until 1970. You have candy store workers that observed him digging on site as early as 1968 (after the army), with the same plastic wrap is other victims were wrapped in.
Yeah man. That was my takeaway.

I can't drive by that area without thinking about that case.


Those are presumably pier-and-beam construction, too. So doubtful the ground was heavily disturbed over the years.
I don't know a ton about construction, but wouldn't there have been some excavation when the old pier and beam homes got replaced by slabs? I'm sure they don't dig that deep and bodies could still be further down. I also kind of have the feeling that those fine skilled craftsmen I see working on townhome construction sites wouldn't bother investigating if they dug up or backed over some decomposed lump wrapped in plastic. Would have gone right into the big rental dumpsters.


I gotta disagree. I grew up in construction and those guys absolutely do not want that heat. They see bones come up, they stop the back hoe, get out and leave. There are other job sites to work. A gang of six will quickly become just el jefe waiting on the cops to show up. Now, a crew of honky ex cons might just scoop it into the roll off box, but the vatos don't play like that.
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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10:39p, 8/9/21
Hell, maybe those townhouses were built pier and beam for a reason.

Most new construction townhouses i've seen go up in the heights are slab.

Somebody had to have known about it at the time that stuff was being built. Title search, disclosures, something

Neighbors, longtime residents, anyone that lived in that area at the time ever remember the issue coming up?

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Jugstore Cowboy
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In reply to Stat Monitor Repairman • 11:29p, 8/9/21
AG

Quote:
Neighbors, longtime residents, anyone that lived in that area at the time ever remember the issue coming up?
I'm off on a bit of a tangent now, but I wonder how many old Heights people are left in the neighborhood from those days. Doug was cutting my hair one day several years ago when an older lady came in to drop off a plant and chat about neighborhood gossip. After she left, he said something like "she's one of our last old Heights eccentrics still left in the neighborhood."

My neighborhood still has some older folks from the 60's, but it never went through the same cycles of exodus and regentrification that had Heights people moving out for different reasons in different decades.

As i probably mentioned in an earlier post, i never knew much about Dean Corll until recent years, partly because I always thought "The Candyman" was that guy who poisoned his kids on Halloween.
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