quote:

---

quote:

---

Can a girl with a wang play on the girls' softball team?

---

They've got a dude without a wang who fights Women's UFC matches.

---

So a woman in women's matches. Ok.

How about a boy turned girl wanting to play girls' softball?

http://www.sgvtribune.com/sports/20140304/transgender-teen-takes-the-field-in-azusa-highs-first-preseason-softball-game

internet says yes

I've responded to dozens of hypotheticals people have tossed out on here, and it always goes the same way - they keep trying to out-do themselves with some "new" and "different" gotcha hypothetical they know for sure is just absolutely going to prove them to be right that all the bathroom rapist paranoia is justified.

If you want to know how the OIG will apply the law, call the OIG. It's that simple.

http://www.houstontx.gov/legal/Office-of-Inspector-General

quote:

---

Why can't you just confess that you're trolling?

---

We can't entertain every claim of internet trolling. I will give you some advice - read the wikipedia article on internet trolling and some case studies on it. If you don't understand it, hire an attorney to give you some advise as to whether this specific case is in fact trolling.

You're usually unbelievably helpful and thorough on just about every city related issue ever brought up on the tine board. Yet with this one, which you are probably VERY familiar with (thought I remembered you saying you put significant work into it...if I'm wrong, I apologize), you're tap dancing like a mofo.

GFF Ag practically admitted s/he is trolling, and SQXVI comes running to troll every gay thread that gets posted.

It's okay, it's their schtick. Whatever floats their boat.

quote:

---

GFF Ag practically admitted s/he is trolling, and SQXVI comes running to troll every gay thread that gets posted.

It's okay, it's their schtick. Whatever floats their boat.

---

It's not trolling. Consult your attorney.

he doesn't want to waste his time taking two seconds to explain it to us, although he painstakingly corrects every other assertion on both this board, and the politics board.

Dude was slinging court cases in the Indiana bakery case and providing links left and right, but he's giving the "i'm on my break, call my boss" answer now.

quote:

---

http://www.sgvtribune.com/sports/20140304/transgender-teen-takes-the-field-in-azusa-highs-first-preseason-softball-game

internet says yes

---

Team showers?

quote:

---

GFF Ag practically admitted s/he is trolling, and SQXVI comes running to troll every gay thread that gets posted.

It's okay, it's their schtick. Whatever floats their boat.

---

not even trolling dude, concerned that it seems like a dude in a dress has an affirmative defense that he is in fact a woman because he says he's a woman and is entitled to use the women's ****ter. You could set me straight in a second, but it's easier for me to hire an attorney and call the IG I guess

quote:

---

he doesn't want to waste his time taking two seconds to explain it to us, although he painstakingly corrects every other assertion on both this board, and the politics board.

Dude was slinging court cases in the Indiana bakery case and providing links left and right, but he's giving the "i'm on my break, call my boss" answer now.

---

When I do respond to the three of you, it's an exercise in futility because you constantly move the goalposts and immediately fire back with new hypotheticals ad nauseum as though I am personally responsible for writing and implementing this ordinance.

Here's a tip - I didn't and I'm not.

Or better yet, go try out your hypothetical and see what happens to you.

Men cannot enter women's restrooms. If a man becomes a woman, he is no longer a man; therefore, the rule still applies.

The question is what constitutes a man in the eyes of the OIG?

quote:

---

Men cannot enter women's restrooms. If a man becomes a woman, he is no longer a man; therefore, the rule still applies.

The question is what constitutes a man in the eyes of the OIG?

---

Seems like the OIG would be a really good place to ask that question. The best place, actually.

http://www.houstontx.gov/legal/Office-of-Inspector-General

quote:

---

quote:

---

Men cannot enter women's restrooms. If a man becomes a woman, he is no longer a man; therefore, the rule still applies.

The question is what constitutes a man in the eyes of the OIG?

---

Seems like the OIG would be a really good place to ask that question. The best place, actually.

http://www.houstontx.gov/legal/Office-of-Inspector-General

---

What constitutes a man in the eyes of Ryan the Temp?

quote:

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Men cannot enter women's restrooms. If a man becomes a woman, he is no longer a man; therefore, the rule still applies.

The question is what constitutes a man in the eyes of the OIG?

---

Seems like the OIG would be a really good place to ask that question. The best place, actually.

http://www.houstontx.gov/legal/Office-of-Inspector-General

---

What constitutes a man in the eyes of Ryan the Temp?

---

I want to provide a response that answers what want to know, and I believe you may be wanting me to explain how or why I accept a transgender man as being a man. Is that correct?

Is there Any way to find out how much this unnecessary 'solution' cost the tax payers?

quote:

---

Is there Any way to find out how much this unnecessary 'solution' cost the tax payers?

---

Make an open records request.

Here is the pertinent text so everyone can see what it says without reading through the rest of the ordinance.

quote:

---

Article IV. Section 17-51. Prohibition against discrimination in public accommodations.

(a) It shall be unlawful for any place of public accommodation or any employee or agent thereof to intentionally discriminate against any person on the basis of any protected characteristic, except as required by federal or state law or court order.


Article I. Section 17-2. Definitions

Protected characteristic means an individual's sex, race, color, ethnicity, national origin, age, familial
status, marital status, military status, religion, disability, sexual orientation, genetic information, gender identity or pregnancy.

Gender identity means an individual's innate identification, appearance, expression or behavior as either male or female, although the same may not correspond to the individual's body or gender as assigned at birth.

---

Doesn't that seem to imply that a dude in a dress with an affected feminine lisp carrying a purse can use the women's room? Haven't yall seen pics of the dude in the women's room at planet fitness?

quote:

---

Doesn't that seem to imply that a dude in a dress with an affected feminine lisp carrying a purse can use the women's room? Haven't yall seen pics of the dude in the women's room at planet fitness?

---

This is exactly the sort of thing that reinforces that engaging you is an exercise in futility. You aren't interested in discussing or understanding the issues as much as you just want to trash on people.

quote:

---

quote:

---

Doesn't that seem to imply that a dude in a dress with an affected feminine lisp carrying a purse can use the women's room? Haven't yall seen pics of the dude in the women's room at planet fitness?

---

This is exactly the sort of thing that reinforces that engaging you is an exercise in futility. You aren't interested in discussing or understanding the issues as much as you just want to trash on people.

---

It clearly says EXPRESSION or BEHAVIOR, no? Does that not seem fairly open to interpretation? If I act like a woman, and say I'm a woman, how does that not satisfy the letter of the ordnance? Lemme guess? Call the IG?

You have a clear lack of understanding of what transgender really means, and your comments demonstrate a lack of interest in understanding.

quote:

---

You have a clear lack of understanding of what transgender really means, and your comments demonstrate a lack of interest in understanding.

---

You totally have me beat at what Transgender really means, I certainly bow to your knowledge. The ordnance doesn't mention the word Transgender, but does mention expression and behavior. Perhaps in a haste to correct a wrong that doesn't exist your buddies forgot to perfect the language?

quote:

---

quote:

---

Doesn't that seem to imply that a dude in a dress with an affected feminine lisp carrying a purse can use the women's room? Haven't yall seen pics of the dude in the women's room at planet fitness?

---

This is exactly the sort of thing that reinforces that engaging you is an exercise in futility. You aren't interested in discussing or understanding the issues as much as you just want to trash on people.

---

It is unlawful to discriminate against any person with a "protected characteristic." Gender identity is a "protected characteristic" and the law defines it by identification, appearance, and expression. Tell me again how some pervert can't toss on a dress and walk into the women's restroom?

It's not about bowing to knowledge or anything, it's about engaging someone who is willing to at least reasonably consider a concept that is foreign to them without being dismissive or mocking, as you have a tendency to be.

If what you say is true - that you aren't just here to troll the thread, I'll take you at your word and discuss your point with regard to this:

quote:

---

Gender identity means an individual's innate identification, appearance, expression or behavior as either male or female, although the same may not correspond to the individual's body or gender as assigned at birth.

---

The key word here is innate. For trans people, their gender identity is innate - it is who they are in their being. It is not something you can turn on or turn off on a whim from day to day or moment to moment. Just like I can't wake up one day and say, "Damn, I'm straight today!" a trans person doesn't just wake up and decide they are some different gender.

We see a lot of the bathroom panic peddlers make comments about how "some guy decides he feels like a woman that day" going into a bathroom. It simply does not work that way. A transition takes a long time, and trans people live as their true gender FULL TIME. Again, the notion that someone just magically decides they feel like a different gender one day is completely ridiculous and is certainly NOT what transgender is.

In my experience looking at other jurisdictions across the nation that have laws of this nature, the laws are applied with the understanding of gender identity or expressing being consistent with what I have explained above - that their gender is innate, not fleeting. I would expect the ordinance in Houston to be applied the same way.

Keep in mind that the burden is on a trans person to prove they are trans, but even at that, across 18 states and about 200 municipalities over the last 30-40 years, there are zero legitimate cases where a person entered a restroom to assault someone and claimed to be transgender as an affirmative defense under a non-discrimination law.

tl;dr version - The idea of some burly dude throwing on a dress to go get his jollies in a women's restroom is not consistent with protected gender identity or expression.

quote:

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Doesn't that seem to imply that a dude in a dress with an affected feminine lisp carrying a purse can use the women's room? Haven't yall seen pics of the dude in the women's room at planet fitness?

---

This is exactly the sort of thing that reinforces that engaging you is an exercise in futility. You aren't interested in discussing or understanding the issues as much as you just want to trash on people.

---

It is unlawful to discriminate against any person with a "protected characteristic." Gender identity is a "protected characteristic" and the law defines it by identification, appearance, and expression. Tell me again how some pervert can't toss on a dress and walk into the women's restroom?

---

Ummm.... Uuhhh..... Ask the IG. The very ordnance itself says gender identity and goes on to list several extremely loose references to behavior and expression. Me thinks Ryan knows this which is why he's doing his best bojangles routine.

quote:

---

Ummm.... Uuhhh..... Ask the IG. The very ordnance itself says gender identity and goes on to list several extremely loose references to behavior and expression. Me thinks Ryan knows this which is why he's doing his best bojangles routine.

---

Scroll up.

quote:

---

It's not about bowing to knowledge or anything, it's about engaging someone who is willing to at least reasonably consider a concept that is foreign to them without being dismissive or mocking, as you have a tendency to be.

If what you say is true - that you aren't just here to troll the thread, I'll take you at your word and discuss your point with regard to this:

quote:

---

Gender identity means an individual's innate identification, appearance, expression or behavior as either male or female, although the same may not correspond to the individual's body or gender as assigned at birth.

---

The key word here is innate. For trans people, their gender identity is innate - it is who they are in their being. It is not something you can turn on or turn off on a whim from day to day or moment to moment. Just like I can't wake up one day and say, "Damn, I'm straight today!" a trans person doesn't just wake up and decide they are some different gender.

We see a lot of the bathroom panic peddlers make comments about how "some guy decides he feels like a woman that day" going into a bathroom. It simply does not work that way. A transition takes a long time, and trans people live as their true gender FULL TIME. Again, the notion that someone just magically decides they feel like a different gender one day is completely ridiculous and is certainly NOT what transgender is.

In my experience looking at other jurisdictions across the nation that have laws of this nature, the laws are applied with the understanding of gender identity or expressing being consistent with what I have explained above - that their gender is innate, not fleeting. I would expect the ordinance in Houston to be applied the same way.

Keep in mind that the burden is on a trans person to prove they are trans, but even at that, across 18 states and about 200 municipalities over the last 30-40 years, there are zero legitimate cases where a person entered a restroom to assault someone and claimed to be transgender as an affirmative defense under a non-discrimination law.

tl;dr version - The idea of some burly dude throwing on a dress to go get his jollies in a women's restroom is not consistent with protected gender identity or expression.

---

For me the key word is OR behavior. Time will tell though whether this is a dangerous ordnance or merely a stupid one.

quote:

---

For me the key word is OR behavior. Time will tell though whether this is a dangerous ordnance or merely a stupid one.

---

Most ordnance tends to be dangerous by its very definition.

But seriously - Experience has shown that the "man in a dress who feels like a woman one day" scenario is not reality. It is a scare tactic designed to gin people up against these laws.

While it's true that women get assaulted by men in restrooms all the time, it isn't transgender women doing the assaulting, and those assailants aren't claiming to be transgender as an affirmative defense.

4 pages in.....can this thread just go away already? Porker has an agenda.....RTT has an agenda......the ordinance is completely unnecessary.......and the judge/jury have made their findings. Let's move on and focus on bigger issues, kids. I'd rather fill the potholes on Kirkwood than piss and moan about the gays.

quote:

---

4 pages in.....can this thread just go away already? Porker has an agenda.....RTT has an agenda......the ordinance is completely unnecessary.......and the judge/jury have made their findings. Let's move on and focus on bigger issues, kids. I'd rather fill the potholes on Kirkwood that piss and moan about the gays.

---

Kirkwood is programmed for total reconstruction.

quote:

---

4 pages in.....can this thread just go away already? Porker has an agenda.....RTT has an agenda......the ordinance is completely unnecessary.......and the judge/jury have made their findings. Let's move on and focus on bigger issues, kids. I'd rather fill the potholes on Kirkwood than piss and moan about the gays.

---

Nailed it on all accounts. Feel good legislation that 'solves' a non existent problem at the expense of the taxpayers. The crusaders/mafia are happy, that's all that matters to Parker.

Ryan: I do agree with you that this whole hysteria over people sneaking in bathrooms is overblown.

But you are also being dishonest when you keep acting like the ordinsnce doesn't apply to the bathroom because that specific word is it included.

I never said it did not apply to restrooms, which are a public accommodation. Some people make posts as though the ordinance was written specifically to state "men get to use womens restrooms" which is patently false.

agreed,that is patently false. My interpretation is that this ordinance is all-encompassing and includes restrooms, locker rooms, wherever. It would seem to me that it also leaves an ocean of subjectivity into what actually defines "gender identity"