ROO petition

9,068 Views | 60 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Brian Alg
Koko Chingo
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8:02a, 4/20/21
AG
(TLDR) How are neighborhood boundary lines drawn?

My initial reaction is that not too much is going to change. If you already live in an area that contains many rental properties it will be unaffected by the ROO. If you are in an area that has very few; the ROO will be voted in by homeowners (unless an existing HOA or deed restrictions take care of it). In either of those scenarios, I do not think much will change, as far as the number of students living in the neighborhood.

For those neighborhoods in-between, are the neighborhood boundaries already established?

Are they listed somewhere in the CAD or on a city website we can look up? I see maps for HOAs. land use, etc. on the city's website; nothing with neighborhood boundaries.
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Well, okay then
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In reply to Donny Hall • 9:07a, 4/20/21
AG
Donny Hall said:
I also dont mind college kid neighbors. I live in a college town. Its the price of admission.
Have felt this way for years, but often find myself in the minority when the subject comes up in conversation.
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Stupe
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10:07a, 4/20/21
S
Just because it is a '"college town" it doesn't mean that there can't be neighborhoods that aren't overrun by students. College Station isn't just the area around TAMU, anymore.
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lost my dog
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In reply to Trucker 96 • 11:00a, 4/20/21
Fore Left! said:
Yay for losing some freedom over your property due to 50% + 1 of your neighbors deciding so
I don't have a dog in this fight since I live in a HOA, but if you're renting out a house to students, you probably aren't living in it,. Hence the people around that house aren't your neighbors - your neighbors are the people who actually live next to where you sleep.
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TKDMom
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In reply to Brian Alg • 11:02a, 4/20/21
I live in a neighborhood in the College Hills area. I appreciate that students want to live near campus. That said, when we bought our house in 1998, the majority of our neighborhood was populated by families. Over the years, a number of those families have grown up and moved on. We paid off our house and love living in a home with a nice sized yard that is convenient to work, shopping and restaurants.

A disturbing trend we have seen in the past few years is that as houses sell, the new buyer tears down the house and rebuilds with an Ag Shack. I get that students need a place to live. There are literally thousands of private dorm rooms in this area that attest to that. It's my understanding that there is another new high rise dorm going in at Northgate. I do not begrudge students a place to live, and the student neighbors we currently have are great kids.

What I do not understand is this practice of replacing single family homes with 5 bedroom monstrosities that completely change the character of the older neighborhoods into which they are erected? Honestly, a better term for these residences would be boarding houses. Certainly, no actual single family with kids could afford to lease one.
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Trucker 96
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In reply to lost my dog • 11:32a, 4/20/21
lost my dog said:
Fore Left! said:
Yay for losing some freedom over your property due to 50% + 1 of your neighbors deciding so
I don't have a dog in this fight since I live in a HOA, but if you're renting out a house to students, you probably aren't living in it,. Hence the people around that house aren't your neighbors - your neighbors are the people who actually live next to where you sleep.


And? Did you buy the house with your money or did the neighbors of this property put some money in? It is your asset and you should be able to use it as zoned. Use "neighbors of the property you own" if you wish. Same point stands

If college students are causing problems, then ramp up enforcement. This ROO approach is an extremely poor way to do that
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lost my dog
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In reply to Trucker 96 • 1:05p, 4/20/21
Fore Left! said:
lost my dog said:
Fore Left! said:
Yay for losing some freedom over your property due to 50% + 1 of your neighbors deciding so
I don't have a dog in this fight since I live in a HOA, but if you're renting out a house to students, you probably aren't living in it,. Hence the people around that house aren't your neighbors - your neighbors are the people who actually live next to where you sleep.


And? Did you buy the house with your money or did the neighbors of this property put some money in? It is your asset and you should be able to use it as zoned. Use "neighbors of the property you own" if you wish. Same point stands

If college students are causing problems, then ramp up enforcement. This ROO approach is an extremely poor way to do that
I'd rather not have a debate over property rights, since that is an endless rabbit hole.

My point is that people are much more willing to argue "my property - my rights" when they don't have to live with the side effects of the activity taking place. This contributes to some of the feelings against real estate types already expressed in this thread.



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techno-ag
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In reply to hopeandrealchange • 4:16p, 4/20/21
AG
hopeandrealchange said:
Chase said:
texAZtea said:
20 years ago to get a certain merit badge or something I attended a city council meeting. I remember the big ticket item was something like this, and it was mostly this old guy complaining that his student neighbor's dropped F bombs in the morning on the way to their car.
Yeah, as someone else said, when you live in a college town, having kids around is part of the price of admission but the complaints aren't just of the yelling at clouds variety

I'm in a neighborhood that has become overrun with the stealth dorms and, despite Bryan's ordinances, they're living 4-8 people deep per house. I've had my yard driven through by a 4x4, my mailbox knocked down, kids jumping into my back yard from an adjacent back yard 3 times in the last 2 years and kids peeing in my front yard once, neighbor's front yard 3 times and in the street behind a parked car more than I can count, all visible from my kid's windows.

And that says nothing about the noise, beer bottles, trash and cans all down the street, the giant water slides and beer pong tables left in the yards/driveways 24/7 or the joy that is navigating the single-file funnel entering or exiting our street, where you can count on someone opening a car door into traffic 2-3 times a week on you.

I can understand someone that owns a rent house not wanting to lose their investment because of one of these ordinances but, even when they do exist, they aren't accomplishing much unless actively enforced.


If only we had city codes that covered all of the items you mentioned. Oh wait we do.
My vote is to enforce the rules we have on the books before we come up with more that can't be enforced.
I'm with you. I hope the ROO is effectively meaningless and hard to enforce. Feel good legislation that doesn't do much.
Trump will fix it.
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dubi
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4:54p, 4/20/21
AG
The "no more than 4 unrelated" needs to be rewritten because all the landlords know to put just 4 names on the lease. There will be zero enforcement no matter how many kids live there.
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Oogway
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In reply to Trucker 96 • 4:57p, 4/20/21
Fore Left! said:
lost my dog said:
Fore Left! said:
Yay for losing some freedom over your property due to 50% + 1 of your neighbors deciding so
I don't have a dog in this fight since I live in a HOA, but if you're renting out a house to students, you probably aren't living in it,. Hence the people around that house aren't your neighbors - your neighbors are the people who actually live next to where you sleep.

If college students are causing problems, then ramp up enforcement. This ROO approach is an extremely poor way to do that
I expect that the end result of 'ramp up enforcement' would be a large number of citizens complaining about their taxes going up because of an increase in code enforcement personnel. Seems like it would go round and round and nobody's happy except the offsite landlord.

Many midtown subdivisions have deed restrictions but the realtors ignore them. Until they get sued. At least I think I read about that on this forum--techno probably knows, techno has been around for a long time.

Maybe the city figures it will work like that so they don't have to have more enforcement?

I don't know.

I do like the idea of high density very close to campus near University though. Keeps some of the sprawl down.

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Chase
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In reply to hopeandrealchange • 5:11p, 4/20/21
AG
hopeandrealchange said:
Chase said:
texAZtea said:
20 years ago to get a certain merit badge or something I attended a city council meeting. I remember the big ticket item was something like this, and it was mostly this old guy complaining that his student neighbor's dropped F bombs in the morning on the way to their car.
Yeah, as someone else said, when you live in a college town, having kids around is part of the price of admission but the complaints aren't just of the yelling at clouds variety

I'm in a neighborhood that has become overrun with the stealth dorms and, despite Bryan's ordinances, they're living 4-8 people deep per house. I've had my yard driven through by a 4x4, my mailbox knocked down, kids jumping into my back yard from an adjacent back yard 3 times in the last 2 years and kids peeing in my front yard once, neighbor's front yard 3 times and in the street behind a parked car more than I can count, all visible from my kid's windows.

And that says nothing about the noise, beer bottles, trash and cans all down the street, the giant water slides and beer pong tables left in the yards/driveways 24/7 or the joy that is navigating the single-file funnel entering or exiting our street, where you can count on someone opening a car door into traffic 2-3 times a week on you.

I can understand someone that owns a rent house not wanting to lose their investment because of one of these ordinances but, even when they do exist, they aren't accomplishing much unless actively enforced.


If only we had city codes that covered all of the items you mentioned. Oh wait we do.
My vote is to enforce the rules we have on the books before we come up with more that can't be enforced.
I think enforcing their own rules is all anyone wants the city to do.

But, unless they are going to actively patrol these neighborhoods like they're Northgate or something, how often are they going to enforce anything? By the time someone is called and someone arrives, the issue is already done and the person is gone.
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threecatcorner
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In reply to TKDMom • 10:54p, 4/20/21
TKDMom said:
I live in a neighborhood in the College Hills area. I appreciate that students want to live near campus. That said, when we bought our house in 1998, the majority of our neighborhood was populated by families. Over the years, a number of those families have grown up and moved on. We paid off our house and love living in a home with a nice sized yard that is convenient to work, shopping and restaurants.

A disturbing trend we have seen in the past few years is that as houses sell, the new buyer tears down the house and rebuilds with an Ag Shack. I get that students need a place to live. There are literally thousands of private dorm rooms in this area that attest to that. It's my understanding that there is another new high rise dorm going in at Northgate. I do not begrudge students a place to live, and the student neighbors we currently have are great kids.

What I do not understand is this practice of replacing single family homes with 5 bedroom monstrosities that completely change the character of the older neighborhoods into which they are erected? Honestly, a better term for these residences would be boarding houses. Certainly, no actual single family with kids could afford to lease one.


Totally agree with this. For some insane reason, these Agshacks are considered "single family housing" even though they clearly are not. Duplexes, which are a lot closer to single family housing (essentially 2 single-family homes sharing a wall) aren't considered single-family housing, and there are some advantages that the owners of the Agshacks get by being able to claim the inaccurate category for their Agshack / stealth dorm.

I think "boarding house" is a fairly accurate description and shouldn't be able to be called "single family" if it's not.
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Aggies76
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8:58a, 4/22/21
AG
Ag shacks can destroy a neighborhood. The ROO is a win for neighborhood integrity. But I fear it will not be enforced.
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UmustBKidding
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9:38a, 4/22/21
But Ag Shacks are something no one wanted but P&Z told residents no, you don't know what is good for you. One of the first Shack infestations is when the property Bill Fitch had set aside for a religious affiliated group was sold and developers that decided the build multifamily student housing in one part of the oldest neighborhoods in College Station. Bills house, adjacent to this property existed well before glade or southwest parkway existed. It was only accessible from a a dirt road that began in the area where Fort Shiloh was located later. The neighbors thought multifamily, designed for 4 occupants with no garage/carport and not enough parking space to cover occupants requiring some to park on the street was a recipe for disaster and should be a no go. But they lost in P&Z hearings. And then they named the street after North Bardell who was pro sane development but I cannot envision him thinking this was above the level of harebrained. I suspect he is turning in his grave and speed is likely up to 3000RPM after the what has happened to COCS over the past 20 years.
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Joe Schillaci 48
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In reply to UmustBKidding • 10:13a, 4/22/21
AG
I was a member of the P&Z over 35 years ago. My children went through College Station ISD from K-12. After A&M graduation, they quickly got out of town. My wife and I moved out of College Station because we were too old to live in the dormitory my cul de sac became. Mail boxes run over, cars driving through my yard, beer cans covering the road, drunks peeing in the flower beds, etc. Enforcement is impossible. I spent a lot of my time in College Station Municpal court because despite law enforcement issueing a citation, if the complaintant wasn't present, the judge would dismiss the charges.

Bill Fitch and North Bardell were great visionaries for College Station but I am pretty sure they did not envision what it has become. I no longer live in BCS but if College Hills (a neighborhood no one wanted to mess with)is turning into dorms I am glad I no longer live there.
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rsa
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In reply to Aggies76 • 10:52a, 4/22/21
AG
Aggies76 said:
Ag shacks can destroy a neighborhood. The ROO is a win for neighborhood integrity. But I fear it will not be enforced.

They are a virtual middle finger to prospective families looking to rent or buy.

A question for the group: if CoCS has a limit of 4 non-related occupants, why are most of the recently built stealth dorms 5br / 5.5ba units? What's the spare suite for?
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UmustBKidding
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In reply to Joe Schillaci 48 • 11:12a, 4/22/21
A lot of the college hills ag shacks replaced housing that was not really serviceable. But it could have been replaced with something less dense even if multifamily with less problems. It got so insane even some recent single family housing was replaces with shacks. But the powers that be do things I can't believe. For instance Chili's bought a couple very run down houses to add additional overflow parking during peak times. But CS decides not allowed to do that, the dilapidated uninhabitable dwellings there are more appropriate. So years later what do we have, beautiful 3 story multiple unit ag shacks with insufficient parking for even half the residents. But we don't want to change the neighborhood character by building a new billion $ city hall across the street, that probably could have benefited from overflow parking.
My issue with the ROO is they always have unintended consequences. Preventing unsanctioned half way houses, ok, preventing people from fostering kids that are difficult to place, not so good. And there are many other cases. And in most every case enforcement of existing rules would be just as effective. It really seems just a method to force rules that if sane planning and enforcement was in place they would not be necessary. But I guess the days are over when people actually talked to their neighbors, discussed what they liked and disliked that was going on and came to some compromise agreement.
I have no clue what it will do to value of property, but think that every neighborhood that elects to participate in the ROO should have all property values reassessed for tax purposes and let the chips fall where they may. If they real estate people are correct I guess their taxes will go down, but if the quality of life is so much better the property should be worth more and they should pay their fair share.
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UmustBKidding
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In reply to rsa • 11:15a, 4/22/21
Likely because families that buy them have more than one kid in school at a given time and want 3 rooms to rent to offset the payment. Other possibilities is for parents to visit for game days. Or maybe for cultivation of medicinal herb plants for the occupants
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dubi
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In reply to UmustBKidding • 12:37p, 4/22/21
AG
UmustBKidding said:
Likely because families that buy them have more than one kid in school at a given time and want 3 rooms to rent to offset the payment. Other possibilities is for parents to visit for game days. Or maybe for cultivation of medicinal herb plants for the occupants
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George Costanza
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In reply to threecatcorner • 12:59p, 4/22/21
If you don't like how buyers are using the property they buy, you could always buy it yourself.
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taxpreparer
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10:15p, 4/22/21
AG
So 50%+1, how does that work? Is it one vote per house,or one vote per registered voter in the house?

Say there are fifteen houses in the neighborhood, does the vote have to be at least 8 to 7? What if the eight houses are owned by singles or single parent and the seven houses all are owned by couple. Can that make the vote 16 to 7 to keep the four unrelated in place?

What if the makeup of the neighborhood changes? Can the ROO be reversed later?
***It's your money, not theIRS! (At least for a little while longer.)
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UhOhNoAgTag
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In reply to taxpreparer • 10:35p, 4/22/21
Photo ID required. And you know how some people never change their DL address. Could be 15 people at one house.
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Chase
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In reply to rsa • 9:47a, 4/23/21
AG
rsa said:
Aggies76 said:
Ag shacks can destroy a neighborhood. The ROO is a win for neighborhood integrity. But I fear it will not be enforced.

They are a virtual middle finger to prospective families looking to rent or buy.

A question for the group: if CoCS has a limit of 4 non-related occupants, why are most of the recently built stealth dorms 5br / 5.5ba units? What's the spare suite for?
I asked this question of the Bryan City Council when they were holding meetings to pretend like they cared about the problems stealth dorms were causing. The guy on the panel answered that it was a 4br with a study.
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Stupe
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In reply to George Costanza • 11:35a, 4/23/21
S
That statement always gets made. And it's always a ridiculous statement.
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Drilltime
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9:25p, 4/24/21
Finally, some protection for families and the street they chose to raise there kids on for tye next 18 years.

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AC Hopper
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9:02a, 9/25/21
S
Have there been any ROO applications since the provision was authorized by council?
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Brian Alg
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In reply to AC Hopper • 11:27a, 9/27/21
If this still holds up, I wouldn't expect to know unless someone in the Overlay makes it public or until maybe the city-hosted meeting or at the latest the P&Z hearing.

Draft ROO Process Handbook -
https://p1cdn4static.civiclive.com/UserFiles/Servers/Server_12410832/File/Departments/CommServ/ROOHandbook.pdf


I expect the areas closest to campus to be first to do it. Despite CSAN's claims when they were pushing for this, I suspect most incumbent landlords will be happy to create barriers to new competition. The ROO proposal was intended, in part, to drive up rent in ROO areas. So it is a Bootleggers and Baptists situation where CSANers and incumbent landlords' interests are aligned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootleggers_and_Baptists


EDIT: Sent an email to someone in the city planning department and they got back to me super quickly. "Thanks for reaching out. The City has not received any ROO applications to date. I have had discussions with approximately four neighborhoods who are interested in pursuing a ROO, but none have submitted applications thus far."
Brian Alg

Brazos Coalition for Responsible Government and Moderator Restraint
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