Fishing Fools said:

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Ha Ha wrong short answer!

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410 runs much higher pressure wise than 22 creating more stress on all joints with more 410 systems being installed in the last 10 years.


Coil quality also took a dump once they started getting produced south of the border.

Same can be shown for water heaters. I've seen older Kenmoore and Rheem heaters go 20-25 years without failure. I've seen most newer heaters fail in 8-10 years.

JP76 said:

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Fishing Fools said:

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Ha Ha wrong short answer!

---

410 runs much higher pressure wise than 22 creating more stress on all joints with more 410 systems being installed in the last 10 years.


Coil quality also took a dump once they started getting produced south of the border.

Same can be shown for water heaters. I've seen older Kenmoore and Rheem heaters go 20-25 years without failure. I've seen most newer heaters fail in 8-10 years.

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That's just every big purchase item these days. Fridges, freezers, etc. Everything is designed to break within 8 years now.

You even see it with mattresses now. Every Mattress company all has the same message in their advertisements "If your mattress is over 8 years old, then you need a new one NOW!! you are going to have irreparable back-problems if you don't replace it now". and they design them now with the built in "memory-foam top" so you can't flip it over to get more life out of it.

91_Aggie said:

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JP76 said:

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Fishing Fools said:

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Ha Ha wrong short answer!

---

410 runs much higher pressure wise than 22 creating more stress on all joints with more 410 systems being installed in the last 10 years.


Coil quality also took a dump once they started getting produced south of the border.

Same can be shown for water heaters. I've seen older Kenmoore and Rheem heaters go 20-25 years without failure. I've seen most newer heaters fail in 8-10 years.

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That's just every big purchase item these days. Fridges, freezers, etc. Everything is designed to break within 8 years now.

You even see it with mattresses now. Every Mattress company all has the same message in their advertisements "If your mattress is over 8 years old, then you need a new one NOW!! you are going to have irreparable back-problems if you don't replace it now". and they design them now with the built in "memory-foam top" so you can't flip it over to get more life out of it.

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This has been force fed by the national mattress retailers (particularly Mattress Firm)... This is NOT the case. I would say replace every 8 years would more so be an industry average of useful life of the product. Clearly some products are going to last well above and beyond 10 years and some are not.

saltydog13 said:

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Who did your install here in BCS?

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I had one done in Rio Medina and one done in Hempstead. Separate companies. Amazing Tradesmen. Did you email me? I wrote you back if so....not sure if you got it.

JP76 said:

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Fishing Fools said:

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Ha Ha wrong short answer!

---

410 runs much higher pressure wise than 22 creating more stress on all joints with more 410 systems being installed in the last 10 years.


Coil quality also took a dump once they started getting produced south of the border.

Same can be shown for water heaters. I've seen older Kenmoore and Rheem heaters go 20-25 years without failure. I've seen most newer heaters fail in 8-10 years.

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I thought there was a bunch of lawsuits for severa companies and then there was some thing about air particles and acdidification creating "ant nest corrosion" that thinned coils and made them prone to leak....but your explanation makes more sense on a large scale.

Looks like it was caught in the spam folder

BrazosDog02 said:

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JP76 said:

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Fishing Fools said:

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Ha Ha wrong short answer!

---

410 runs much higher pressure wise than 22 creating more stress on all joints with more 410 systems being installed in the last 10 years.


Coil quality also took a dump once they started getting produced south of the border.

Same can be shown for water heaters. I've seen older Kenmoore and Rheem heaters go 20-25 years without failure. I've seen most newer heaters fail in 8-10 years.

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I thought there was a bunch of lawsuits for severa companies and then there was some thing about air particles and acdidification creating "ant nest corrosion" that thinned coils and made them prone to leak....but your explanation makes more sense on a large scale.

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You are correct. The new stuff is much more corrosive and eats the **** outta of copper tubing. Trane wouldn't honor my 10 year extende warranty on this part. This is the third EC in 8 years. Thank you Obama.

I would like to know why Mr Zap wasn't aware of this common problem that's a huge expense on families?

Fishing Fools said:

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BrazosDog02 said:

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JP76 said:

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Fishing Fools said:

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Ha Ha wrong short answer!

---

410 runs much higher pressure wise than 22 creating more stress on all joints with more 410 systems being installed in the last 10 years.


Coil quality also took a dump once they started getting produced south of the border.

Same can be shown for water heaters. I've seen older Kenmoore and Rheem heaters go 20-25 years without failure. I've seen most newer heaters fail in 8-10 years.

---

I thought there was a bunch of lawsuits for severa companies and then there was some thing about air particles and acdidification creating "ant nest corrosion" that thinned coils and made them prone to leak....but your explanation makes more sense on a large scale.

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You are correct. The new stuff is much more corrosive and eats the **** outta of copper tubing. Trane wouldn't honor my 10 year extende warranty on this part. This is the third EC in 8 years. Thank you Obama.

I would like to know why Mr Zap wasn't aware of this common problem that's a huge expense on families?

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I myself recently had a ~4-5 year old Trane unit replaced on my house ( It's true, the A/C guy on here without a working A/C Unit for a min.)

We've been to our two factories this year and are fully aware of the issues. R-22 is going away and isn't the solution, and R-410a will soon go away with a better refringent in 2023. In 2023 that refringent will be flammable and somewhere along the way the Hvac industry gets to figure it all out ( yes, along with all the building codes to adapt + the HVAC industry probably gets more regulated)

Because it's a huge expense and a stressful situation, it's partly the reason we went into the residential HVAC service. We got good at helping homeowners in these type of stressful situations ( and again - were not traditional contractors with muddy shoes).

HVAC systems are meant not meant, "Probably Not Meant" to last forever, and the installers to the number of times the air filters get changed all lower the life/ how soon those coils will fail.

ReelDeal said:

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R-22 was never found to be contributing to ozone depletion. The argument has always failed to demonstrate how CFC's could make it to the upper atmosphere when they are heavier than 80/20 (N/O2) air. It's real convincing, however, that the reason R-22 was designated for phasing out had a lot to do with Dow chemical's patent expiration on R-22. At that same time, coincidentally, Dow had conducted very "scientific" tests to determine their product (no longer patent protected) had been damaging the Ozone. But, Dow had a solution... They had developed a HFC freon to replace the dangerous CFC and were already producing the HFC replacement under patent protection. Maybe you recall the names- R-134A, 410A. I would imagine that the current switch of freons has more to do with niche marketing than protection of the climate. Just my .02.

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It wasn't Dow; it was DuPont. Here is a link to UL that you might find interesting. https://news.ul.com/news/hvac-r-industry-adapts-become-friendly-flammable-refrigerants

MadDog73 said:

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ReelDeal said:

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R-22 was never found to be contributing to ozone depletion. The argument has always failed to demonstrate how CFC's could make it to the upper atmosphere when they are heavier than 80/20 (N/O2) air. It's real convincing, however, that the reason R-22 was designated for phasing out had a lot to do with Dow chemical's patent expiration on R-22. At that same time, coincidentally, Dow had conducted very "scientific" tests to determine their product (no longer patent protected) had been damaging the Ozone. But, Dow had a solution... They had developed a HFC freon to replace the dangerous CFC and were already producing the HFC replacement under patent protection. Maybe you recall the names- R-134A, 410A. I would imagine that the current switch of freons has more to do with niche marketing than protection of the climate. Just my .02.

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It wasn't Dow; it was DuPont. Here is a link to UL that you might find interesting. https://news.ul.com/news/hvac-r-industry-adapts-become-friendly-flammable-refrigerants

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Thanks MadDog. My memory isn't that good anymore. I think it's funny that flammable properties are being measured as a negative effect and that it is something new. We still have ammonia chillers being used today. They were used for years in travel trailers (if they're not still being used) to run low power evaporative cooling systems. Oh well. Has anyone mentioned that when CFC's are burned, they become deadly mustard gas (phosgene gas)?

Thoughts from Malek.....

http://malekservice.com/refrigerant-additives/

TLDR: a decent explanation of how the product works, and an opinion that is a viable option for older systems.

Rexter said:

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Thoughts from Malek.....

http://malekservice.com/refrigerant-additives/

TLDR: a decent explanation of how the product works, and an opinion that is a viable option for older systems.

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The timing of that blog ( and the lack of other blogs) was extremely coincidental, to the 'drama in local hvac the industry' I was stirring ~2 years ago with Arctic Blast

Quote:

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In my HVAC technical opinion, I would use additives, but ONLY on those systems that are aged and unable to reach a good temperature split after we have maintained them to our best ability. NEVER trust anyone who says it is a "fix all" because I assure you they are very much not even close to being correct.

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Personally I think this stuff is the radiator leak stop of the ac industry.

The additive does not increase efficiency in pure and new units. I'd argue it reduces efficiency in those. However, in an old unit that has a 30% loss, it can partially correct that and increase its efficiency. That's why the manufacturers don't put it in from the factory. It's why AC folks should only be using it as stop gap solution to a poorly performing system short of replacement.

It's like asking why Ford doesn't ship trucks with Slime already in them to prevent flats.

The solution to getting high efficiency from new units is proper sizing and proper installation techniques.