I shot a man in Reno at about 600 yards once. Just to see if I could, oh and to watch him die of course.

urban you and aggz are right. except in rare cases the 300 - 800 yard shots are either pure luck or total bull. many of the 300 yd shots are steped off by folks that do not have range finders. i have had heard people at the range brag about how they made a 400yd shot. then you look at their 100yd groups and they are 2" or bigger and thats from a solid bench rest. also 100 yds is all they shoot. they don't have a clue about bullet drop beyond 100 yds. if you train for long distance shots and have the right equipment, then take them. if you don't, won't, or can't then keep the shots under 200-250 yds.

This Mule deer cull was shot last year from the road in the upper right corner of the picture with a 25WSM. It was an extremely long shot. The original estimate of range prior to the shot was 600 yards. It dropped instantly. After getting to the deer and looking back the four seasoned west Texas hunters estimated it to be from 600-650 yards. The next day the range finder indicated 358 yards. Still a very long shot.

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I've hunted deer my entire teenage/adult life. I have guided for years.

I have seen only a handful of deer taken at distances more than 250 yards.

Personally, I took a whitetail doe at about (pace counted) 320 yards in an oat field. I took a wing and a prayer shot and got lucky, 7mag collapsed the spine mid body.

All this talk about 400+ yards shots on whitetail is grade A bullsh**.

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Just because you can't/wont' take a shot that other will, don't call bull. There are many people out there that have the equipment and capability to take the longer shots, and do so on a regular basis.

Are they rare? Yep. But certainly not impossible. The day Ralph shot is doe at 437 (in the neck by the way, I was in the blind with the rangefinder and witnessed it), he also hit the 2nd doe about 15 minutes later at 338. She was on a full run, the first shot should have put her down (heart/lung & a shoulder blade). His second shot on her sucked as it was a gut shot, but she dropped after it punched through her.

He also contemplated going to the Army Sniper School after he enlisted (he qualified for it), but decided that flying Apaches would be a cooler gig, so that's what he does now.

Some people have the natural capability to gauge accurately long range shots. Just like some people can pick up a driver and hit it off the tee box 300+ yards or throw a football 60+ yards under pressure to a well covered reciever. Ralph wasn't anything to brag about with a pistol or even a shotgun, but give him his .270 and he could reliably hit, with a high degree of accuracy, just about anything you pointed out up to 600 yards. And anybody that can print a sub MOA group at 1000 yards has my respect in terms of long range shooting.

Believe what you want, but there are those out there that can, and do, take those long shots you are calling bull****.

Why would someone that good even consider shooting a "doe" of all things at that range.
You would have to have a scope far better than mine for a whitetail to be anything more than a dot at that distance. I guess you shoot a dot and a half high to account for 4' or so of drop.

sunchaser's story sounds like what is happening to most people on here...you shoot something from a long ways off and you think it is 500+ yards....so you go tell all your buddy's about this incredible shot you made...when in reality it was prolly 300 or less.

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And anybody that can print a sub MOA group at 1000 yards has my respect in terms of long range shooting.

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Not to be a d*** or anything, but a Minute of angle is the same at 10 yards or a thousand yards.

Some genious at the range told my friend and I that he could repeatedly hit a nickel at 200 yards with his 10/22 and BSA scope.........offhand. My friend let him shoot his beat up old 7.62x54 (iron sights), and 2 of the 5 rounds didn't even find the target. I think hunters/shooters are bigger liars than fisherman sometimes.

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Why would someone that good even consider shooting a "doe" of all things at that range.
You would have to have a scope far better than mine for a whitetail to be anything more than a dot at that distance. I guess you shoot a dot and a half high to account for 4' or so of drop.

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Because the friend of ours that let us hunt his land every year for free only allowed us to take does. It's not much of a sacrifice if it's a free deer on a free hunt at a nice place.

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Not to be a d*** or anything, but a Minute of angle is the same at 10 yards or a thousand yards.

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I am quite aware of this. I'm also quite aware of the fact that the farther you get away from your target, the harder it is to keep minute of angle accuracy.

Plenty of people can shoot minute of angle accuracy at 100 or even 200 yards. Bump that up to 500 and the number drops significantly. Bump that number up to 1000 and you'll find that maybe 1 in 100 (if that many) can continue to keep minute of angle accuracy. If it was easy, everybody would be at the long range shooting competitions.

MOA @ 100 yards = 1" (actually 1 and some change)
MOA @ 1000 yards = 10"...not quite the same

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Just because you can't/wont' take a shot that other will, don't call bull. There are many people out there that have the equipment and capability to take the longer shots, and do so on a regular basis.

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Very nicely put, schmellba99

Yes, an inch at 100 and 10 inches at 1000 are the same thing. It's a minute of angle no matter how far out you measure it. That was my point.

[This message has been edited by Goose (edited 12/14/2006 7:00p).]

Yes, MOA is MOA no matter what the range, many don't know an MOA from a milliradian, or even what they are as far as that goes. As the distance of the target increases, so does the distance between the angle. The angular measurement may stay the same, but the linear measurement does not

...how about a "minute of change" on the rear sight will move the point of impact 1.0476 inches at 100 yards & 10.476 inches at 1000 yards? Please note that I used (inches) instead of "

[This message has been edited by sunchaser (edited 12/14/2006 7:43p).]

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Yes, an inch at 100 and 10 inches at 1000 are the same thing. It's a minute of angle no matter how far out you measure it. That was my point.

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If you were just refering to the technical aspect, that's cool.

I was referring to the fact that keeping a projectile inside the 10" circle at 1000 yards isn't something just anybody can do. It's not easy, and few people have the capability to do so.

Keeping a projectile inside a 1" circle at 100 yards is considerably easier. You can go to the range on any given day and find multiple people that can achieve that feat with little to no problem. Take that same person and put them on a thousand yard range, and I'd be willing to be that less than 1% can keep the same degree of accuracy.

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You would have to have a scope far better than mine for a whitetail to be anything more than a dot at that distance. I guess you shoot a dot and a half high to account for 4' or so of drop.

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437/9 = 48.5556

Sight wise, a deer at 437 yards seen through a 9 power objective is the same as looking at a deer with no magnification at just shy of 50 yards. Seeing the deer isn't the problem, it's knowing the ballistics of the round in your particular rifle and being able to calculate or determine where to adjust your sight picture to allow the round to hit where you want it to.

If you put the time in and tune your rifle to one particular round, and keep detailed records of what that round does at various distances and windages, you can become proficient enough at "long" distances without much problem. Obviously you need to be able to place the round where you need to, but it's not an impossible feat by any stretch of the imagination.

What was also lost in the discussion of MOA is MOA at whatever distance. That constant angular measurement over any distance is 1/60th of 1 degree(in case anyone is interested).

I know several people that can hit a target at 1000 yards consistently. The highpower rifle game is full of them that do it regularly with iron sights. My comment was more of a question of: Why?
At that range there is no hunting skill at all....you might as well be shooting targets. Since that kind of shooting is exponentialy harder than the ranges most deer are taken at, why risk wounding an animal? Why not learn how to hunt and brag about how close you were able to get to it? Running shot at 338 yards? I call BS, but even if that is the truth, why in hell would you ever take that shot? Sounds like infantile Johnson measuring to me..... and the animal pays for it with a gut shot.

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but it's not an impossible feat by any stretch of the imagination

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I think most people on this board will agree with that and most will probably agree that it is stupid. A lot of discussion on this board is about hunting. Hopefully hunting doesn't become sitting in a free blind on a free lease and shooting a free doe at 437 yards. There is a big difference to me between hunting and shooting.

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Sight wise, a deer at 437 yards seen through a 9 power objective is the same as looking at a deer with no magnification at just shy of 50 yards.

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Like I said I guess I need a better scope! I know what a deer looks like at fifty yards. If I see one at 437 yards with the naked eye it's going to be nothing more than a dot. If I can find it w/ 9X scope it's going to be about 9 dots. Do you honestly believe this is the same?




[This message has been edited by sunchaser (edited 12/15/2006 1:59p).]

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Hopefully hunting doesn't become sitting in a free blind on a free lease and shooting a free doe at 437 yards. There is a big difference to me between hunting and shooting.

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To each his own I guess. If your idea of hunting is stalking a deer and seeing how close you can get before the kill, more power to you. Others might think hunting is taking a deer at a distance many would not choose to attempt. So long as each person is competent at their choice of hunting, there is little difference.

I'm a lot older now than I used to be, so to me hunting is more about getting to spend time with my buddies as that time together becomes harder and harder to come by. It's also about not taking the easy 100 yard shot every time you go out. It's about passing on the first deer that comes across your line of sight and waiting for the best deer. Or about calling in the flock of ducks that just won't decoy on the first try.

Either way, it's going to be different to each person. If you can't see a deer at 400 yards, that's your issue. I can. You can sit behind your computer and be the perfect little hunter, question those that chose to hunt different than you do, question their choices and morals...but in the end, nothing really will change. I see zero problems with somebody, who has the capability, to take a 400 or even longer, yard shot on an animal if they are confident in their ability to place the round where it needs to be placed.

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Running shot at 338 yards? I call BS, but even if that is the truth, why in hell would you ever take that shot? Sounds like infantile Johnson measuring to me..... and the animal pays for it with a gut shot.

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Perhaps you didn't read the part where the first round that struck her puncured both lungs, her heart, and a shoulder blade. How she kept running is a mystery, and had he known that the first shot had been as clean a hit as that, the second shot never would have come.

And you take that type of shot because hitting a stationary target is relatively easy. You take the shots that are a little more difficult because it provides a challenge, a change from the norm and makes hunting fun. If every time you went to the blind, you knew that you would get the perfect 100 yard shot broadside on an 8 pointer, you'd quickly find that you would go to the blind less and less.

I'll give you that the second shot wasn't a good shot, and both he and I felt bad about it. But there is little difference between taking a poor shot and taking a caliber out in the field that isn't capable of taking the animal down. I've seen numerous deer shot with a .223 or a .222 that took numerous shots to drop. Is there really any difference? I've also seen bow shots that were poorly placed that either didn't do the job or took significantly longer for the deer to bleed out than a .270 gut shot. I am also assuming that you are of the breed that has never missed your intended target and that every deer you have taken has dropped instantly.

Even the best hunters are going to miss their mark on occasion. To err is human, and everybody that has ever shot a rifle or bow knows that there are going to be times that your aim isn't what you wished it would have been.

So sit back and call BS on me. That's fine. All I can say is that I was there, I ranged it, I saw the shot. There was no "johnson" measuring going on. If we had wanted to take a doe at 100 yards, that certainly wouldn't have been an issue. And our hunt would have been over in about 15 minutes with little in terms of excitement.

To me, that's not what hunting is about. If you constantly take the easy shot, it gets old. Then you quit hunting. That's not what anybody on this board wants to see.

to those of you who have to take long shots to feel challenged...why don't you take up bowhunting?

I strictly bowhunt now in the hill country because the bucks are smaller and it is more challenging with a bow.

Once I shoot a buck down south that scores over 160...I will only bowhunt down there as well. It is even a lot more challenging and fun to shoot cull bucks if you are doing it with a bow.

Even shooting doe with a bow at 20 yards and under is a blast. Can't say the same for a gun.

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to those of you who have to take long shots to feel challenged...why don't you take up bowhunting?

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Personally I don't get much out of a bow. I used to be rather proficient with a recurve, but I ended up breaking it one day by accident and have pretty much given up bows and bow hunting. They just don't do much for me, especially compounds. Personal choice more than anything though.

I just went back and re-read this:

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Like I said I guess I need a better scope! I know what a deer looks like at fifty yards. If I see one at 437 yards with the naked eye it's going to be nothing more than a dot. If I can find it w/ 9X scope it's going to be about 9 dots. Do you honestly believe this is the same?

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If a deer looks like "nine dots" though a 9 power scope, chances are that it's far out of range of the rifle, much less the user.

I'm assuming that you would never take an open sighted rifle hunting, and if you did, you'd never take a shot more than 25-30 yards with it based on your statement. Open sighted hunting is maybe marginally more accurate at 50 yards than somebody is at 400 with a 9 power scope and competent enough to take the shot. If you think about it, there is almost no difference. You have just as likely a chance at making a poor shot at 50 yards with no magnification as you do at 400 with 9x magnification. I'm hoping you never use anything other than a scoped rifle at no more than about 150 yards.

I shot a hill country doe with open sight, muzzler loader at 82 yards... a few years back... sights pretty much took up the doe... I made a good lung shot... but part of the reason I took the shot was that it seemed like a real challenge... luck involved... sure... skill involved... sure... Lots of satisfaction? You bet... sometimes, some of you get a little pretentious about what you consider "an ethical shot"... to many, the shot I took was probably "unethical"...










To you folks... I say, sucittrebeck!

I sure would like to know what type of scope you use...If they make a 10x I'll buy one. That way when I look at that big buck at 100 yards with a 2' spread....I'll dial it up to 10x and he will look like he has a 20 foot spread. WOW! That will be awesome! Have you ever owned a rifle with a scope?

Since there is no difference...let's you and I have a contest. Let's get some 12" pie plates and shoot offhand for $1000 a shot. I'll use the open sights at 50 yards and you get the 400 yard shot with 9x. Interested?

[This message has been edited by sunchaser (edited 12/15/2006 6:56p).]

The thread that never dies.......
Shooting at long distances is definitely not for everyone. It takes practice, discipline and the right equipment to do it right. I have been shooting beyond 500 yards for about 20 years. Started when I was in highschool. I leave nothing in question when I do. My rifles are built for it and loads are taylored for each rifle. Each is fitted for the specific chamber headspace and neck thickness is turned/ uniformed to a specific measurement. Case length is trimmed and OAL is to the specific rifle to be set .002" off the lands. Powder is hand measured for each load to 1/10th of a grain. I clean the primer pockets and debur the flash holes. When I find a loading that is particularly accurate, I then chronograph many strings and run through the data. I know the drop of the bullet for every 10 yards if I so choose, and I add variables such as wind, temp, humidity and baro prassue to see what effect that will have. As for equipment. I usually take 2 laser rangefinders, a Mildot Master, a Kestrel weather station a Palm Pilot loaded with ATRAG software and a tripod rest. I know exactly what my bullet is going to do when the sear breaks and I am confident in my ability. If I have doubt about a shot for whatever reason, like a good swirling crossind for example, I will wait for another day. Telling me I can't shoot a deer at 500 yards would be like telling AgChemist he couldn't shoot a deer with a bow at 20 - 30 yards. He has the practice, experience and proper tools to hunt with a bow. I have the same with a rifle.
And no offense intended, but if a grown deer looks like a dot at 400 yards, you may need to have your eyes checked. You can't count horns at that range with the naked eye, but a deer is easily identifiable.

suc ac's ass, why don't ya...

My eyes are fine and yours are exceptional. A Whitetail at 100 yards has an apparent size....make the body as big as you can. If you double the distance to 200 yards the "apparent" size of your deer is 1/4 the size that it was at 100 yards. Now double it to 400 yards and the "apparent" size of it is 1/4 the size at 200 yards. Maybe not a dot...how about a beer can with a big rack and four legs.

I have lost respect for everyone on this thread... myself included.

Everyone has missed a shot or made a bad shot at one time or another. I am just saying that purposefully increasing the odds that you are going to make a bad shot is not terribly ethical. I have a great time shooting across the course highpower, but in that game if I throw a shot I don't end up gut shooting an animal. If taking deer at 100 yards is boring then perhaps it would be more exciting to decide not take a shot longer than 50 yards.......

i thought it was ok to shoot a deer in the guts??? won't they eventually die??

I'm with AlexAggie on this. Shoot to kill. If you need to cock off a 400 yard gutshot prayer to get a charge out of hunting, try different game or get out of the blind.

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sure would like to know what type of scope you use...If they make a 10x I'll buy one. That way when I look at that big buck at 100 yards with a 2' spread....I'll dial it up to 10x and he will look like he has a 20 foot spread. WOW! That will be awesome! Have you ever owned a rifle with a scope?

Since there is no difference...let's you and I have a contest. Let's get some 12" pie plates and shoot offhand for $1000 a shot. I'll use the open sights at 50 yards and you get the 400 yard shot with 9x. Interested?

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Reading is fundamental. Evidently you don't do much of it or you wouldn't be asking stupid questions.

I didn't take the deer at the 437 yard range. One of my best friends, who is better at that type of distance than I am, did take the shot. All I did was take the laser range finder and verify the distance for him.

But to answer your other stupid question, yes, I own several rifles with various types of scopes at various magnifications. A standard Leupold 3-9 x 40mm is what is currently mounted on my .243. I've also been shooting and hunting for about 25 years. I'm fairly certain I know what I'm talking about.

And with your little contest, I'd gladly take that bet should you ever come out to the desert. But the caveat is that I never stated anywhere that the shot was offand. You are changing the rules of the game when you throw in additional variables over and above what I said.

I can reliably print under 1" at 200 yards with my .243. I've also fired a significant amount of rounds downrange with that rifle, have my scope dialed in to a "T" and know the ballistics of the one particular round I religously use through that rifle. I'm confident that I can print as good, if not better, a group at a longer distance from a solid bench rest than many people, yourself include, with open sights at a considerably shorter distance. But hey, that's me, I've only been shooting longer distances for the last 15 years or so. I can do that with MY rifle. With Ralph's rifle, I am lucky to print 1" at 100 yards. For some reason I've never been very accurate with his rifle. I'm also only a slightly better than average shot with a pistol. But my rifle is a different story.

And without the aid of a spotting scope, no, you can't count points at 400 yards. But with a 9 power you can deduce whether or not a deer is a buck or doe, and if you can't, then you certainly don't need to be attempting a long distance shot.

You honestly sound like one of those types of people that went out, spent 2 grand on a rifle because you think that the more money you spend the better the rifle, shot one deer, and now you are a world renowned expert on everything there ever was to know about shooting at any distance in any situation. God, I love to run into your types at the range. It surely is a treat to be educated by such an expert.

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Open sighted hunting is maybe marginally more accurate at 50 yards than somebody is at 400 with a 9 power scope and competent enough to take the shot.

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Sorry, I must have overlooked the part about where you aren't competent enough to take that shot "offhand."

I'm sure you are a great shot with awesome equipment and your money is where your interest is. The point I and a few others have been trying to make is that some view what they are doing as hunting and what you are doing is shooting. To each his own. Adios.

[This message has been edited by sunchaser (edited 12/16/2006 1:57p).]