First off the LEO merely enforces the law that the legislature passes. He is doing his job like you do yours. Secondly, wearing a kill switch while underway is a no brainer and saves lives and not wearing one is irresponsible and yes the fine should be three times that.
I'm sure you would feel different if a guy was ejected and the boat ran over you kid.

1990AG said:

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Isn't there a video out there of a group of rednecks objecting to wearing seat belts in the car or drinking while driving?

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schmellba99 said:

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Gunny456 said:

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Most important rule of boating. Akin to making sure a gun is unloaded before handing it.
I've seen a number of folks dead or maimed badly from falling out of a boat and having it run over them in my marine career.
As Grem said use it as a big important learning lesson.
Don't make light of it. It could save his life someday.
They disqualify guys from million dollar tournaments for not wearing them.
For the danger in it the fine should be three times that.

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No, it shouldn't

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I don't know about 'proper' fine levels, but just so I am clear, we are talking about the lanyard that attaches to the boat driver guy, who is in control of the boat, possibly going at high speeds, so that if he becomes disconnected from the controls or falls out of the boat, the lanyard will kill the ignition to said boat so that it does not carry on it's current course, again, at possibly a high rate of speed, careening into other boats and/or people on the water?

If so, It should be quite hefty. Ignorance is no defense.

Yes sir. I mean we have fines five times that for throwing trash out on the road for goodness sakes.

GeorgiAg said:

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1990AG said:

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Isn't there a video out there of a group of rednecks objecting to wearing seat belts in the car or drinking while driving?

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To be fair, I think seatbelt laws are stupid. I also think drinking and driving is not the same as being drunk and driving. And yes, I was raised in a small town where we, my cousins, and all of our friends piled in the bed of a truck and drove across town to see people while my old man had a couple of Lonestars.

That said, DUI laws have a legitimate purpose to preventing OTHERS from dying, so I can't argue much with it. Seatbelt laws prevent the driver from dying and I think we should wipe that out and let nature take its course.

Gunny456 said:

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Yes sir. I mean we have fines five times that for throwing trash out on the road for goodness sakes.

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I am in 100% agreement with you on the lanyard thing. I'd even say it's more dangerous than drunk driving if a boat gets away. Maybe, if people aren't smart enough to manage it themselves with hefty fines, we need to put OPC systems in like we do on tractors. I can't even jump off my machine and take a whiz without going through a 3 step process.

My dad and I were the first ones on scene for a boating fatality when I was younger, and much later in life one of my mentors was critically injured after falling out of the boat and the prop tearing him up. Wear the lanyard. Its easy, and a much cheaper lesson to be learned via a fine. Good learning moment. Not trying to be an ass, but it really is extremely important to you, those on the boat, and others in the water.

schmellba99 said:

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OneMoonGoon92 said:

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why are you mad? Its his ticket. Tell him to pay up or stay off the boat and go to jail.

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Well.....

1. There was no harmed party in not having the lanyard around his wrist. The LEO could have done something along the lines of given an education as to why it is necessary and a warning instead of automatically writing a ticket* instead of flipping out the ticket book and writing a ticket just because.

2. Near $300 for something like this is out of line in terms of fine for the action and show s that it is nothing more than a government money grab. Especially if it is the first time the kid has had any type of run in with the law.

3. Things like this are a great way for LEO's to be either seen as helpful and stewards of the public or flat out dicks. This guy obviously chose the flat out dick path.

*assuming no other issues with the stop. If kiddo was a jackass or something along those lines, he earned the ticket at that point.

Bottom line is that we get preached to every day about how LEO's just want to protect the public and do all of these good things, yada, yada, yada. Then a really chicken sht ticket like this gets written that, assuming the transaction was what the OP conveyed, should have been a friendly discussion and a warning. Which leads many to come to the conclusion that it is just another tax for not following some law somewhere that whatever government agency has decided we all need to follow to keep the king happy and fed.

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2 counter thoughts...

1) when someone goes overboard not wearing kill switch and LEO is called out....how much does all of that cost the public for their response? Had person been wearing kill switch boat stops and likely they can get back into boat....no LEO needed and no cost to taxpayer. LEO can focus on more important things

2) the ticket can be viewed as a form of giving an education. It'll be a lesson dude won't forget and will think of every time he gets behind the helm.

if a teenager blows thru a stop sign at 40 mph but doesn't hit anyone so nobody is harmed are you okay with the kid just getting a warning?

Well said.

trip98 said:

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schmellba99 said:

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OneMoonGoon92 said:

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why are you mad? Its his ticket. Tell him to pay up or stay off the boat and go to jail.

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Well.....

1. There was no harmed party in not having the lanyard around his wrist. The LEO could have done something along the lines of given an education as to why it is necessary and a warning instead of automatically writing a ticket* instead of flipping out the ticket book and writing a ticket just because.

2. Near $300 for something like this is out of line in terms of fine for the action and show s that it is nothing more than a government money grab. Especially if it is the first time the kid has had any type of run in with the law.

3. Things like this are a great way for LEO's to be either seen as helpful and stewards of the public or flat out dicks. This guy obviously chose the flat out dick path.

*assuming no other issues with the stop. If kiddo was a jackass or something along those lines, he earned the ticket at that point.

Bottom line is that we get preached to every day about how LEO's just want to protect the public and do all of these good things, yada, yada, yada. Then a really chicken sht ticket like this gets written that, assuming the transaction was what the OP conveyed, should have been a friendly discussion and a warning. Which leads many to come to the conclusion that it is just another tax for not following some law somewhere that whatever government agency has decided we all need to follow to keep the king happy and fed.

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2 counter thoughts...

1) when someone goes overboard not wearing kill switch and LEO is called out....how much does all of that cost the public for their response? Had person been wearing kill switch boat stops and likely they can get back into boat....no LEO needed and no cost to taxpayer. LEO can focus on more important things

2) the ticket can be viewed as a form of giving an education. It'll be a lesson dude won't forget and will think of every time he gets behind the helm.

if a teenager blows thru a stop sign at 40 mph but doesn't hit anyone so nobody is harmed are you okay with the kid just getting a warning?

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1. Hell, let's just go all the way - had the person not had a boat period it wouldn't have happened either in your scenario. So let's just get rid of all boats now, that will eliminate any and all boating accidents. If we are getting into the "what if" game, where does it end? That is literally a rabbit hole that is bottomless.

2. A ticket like that, especially on a first infraction, is not an education. That is nothing more than the government making sure you know you are under their thumb.

3. Your example of blowing through a stop sign and this aren't remotely the same, nice try though. This is more along the lines of "a teenager came to a california stop at 2am on a road when there was no traffic visible in any direction".

Sorry, tickets like these are the epitome of chicken sht and serve little value - especially on a first offense for what is more than likely a simple honest mistake/oversight by the operator - other than to separate you from your money and to make sure you know you are a subject. My mind isn't going to be changed on this either. Not every damned thing should be a fineable offense, and pretty much everything is.

Now, you get into the "hey, you've been warned about this before" territory, and sure - ticket is warranted at that point. But the whole mantra of "keeping you safe" is absolute crap IMO when everything is financially punitive.

The older I get, the more I realize how much every level of government does everything possible to find a way to separate you from your money, as if they don't do good enough on that with taxes. If things were really about safety as they are claimed, operations would be significantly different than they are now.

Pull the kid over, take a few minutes to lecture him on what the law is and why, send him on his way with a warning. Lesson is learned the same way in the overwhelming majority of cases and you don't have a kid that has a dislike of LEO's from the onset of his/her life behind the wheel. Pretty simple, straightforward and a positive interaction goes a lot further than a negative one.

But I digress, this is the OB and sometimes I forget where I am.

Gunny456 said:

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Yes sir. I mean we have fines five times that for throwing trash out on the road for goodness sakes.

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That are never actually enforced either.

The difference here is that not wearing a lanyard can easily be an simple honest mistake and there is no harmed party for not doing so.

Littering is a conscious choice made by trash people, has environmental impacts and at some point it costs all of us to have people pick it up.

Littering should be a $10k fine because it takes a massive d-bag to think it's OK to dump trash on the side of the road or leave it on the beach or whatever.

You're right though. The $287 fine is peanuts by today's money and means didly. Maybe if the fine was $2000 it would certainly be a learning experience.

The $287 would have been the least of my worries. My real punishment would have come from my dad in the form of not being able to use the boat for a good while plus no telling what collateral punishment he would have come up with.
I can tell you he surely would not have felt like the LEO was wrong in writing the ticket.

ETA: I know you guys know my dad was a Leo for many years. My dad would seldom write a ticket. He felt that a fine did little to make a point in many instances. He felt that a stern talking to for 25-30 minutes would accomplish more for young folks than the ticket.
However he also gave no quarter on bone head clearly dangerous violations that he felt not only needed the lecture but the full brunt of the law as well. Those instances were few for him, but it did happen.

hillcountryag86 said:

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Don't think this went as OP hoped ...

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What's funny is it's a bunch of "well, it's important for safety" types of replies to make themselves look like they are nobel individuals for knowing and following the law, yet these same people will ***** and moan about any magazine restrictions for firearms or any law that would force them to transport a firearm with a trigger guard on it.

Both are government overreaches to do nothing more than to collect revenue under the guise of safety.

F*uck the popo I barely killed that guy

If you get anywhere near a wake boat you better have it attached.

BrazosDog02 said:

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schmellba99 said:

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Gunny456 said:

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Most important rule of boating. Akin to making sure a gun is unloaded before handing it.
I've seen a number of folks dead or maimed badly from falling out of a boat and having it run over them in my marine career.
As Grem said use it as a big important learning lesson.
Don't make light of it. It could save his life someday.
They disqualify guys from million dollar tournaments for not wearing them.
For the danger in it the fine should be three times that.

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No, it shouldn't

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I don't know about 'proper' fine levels, but just so I am clear, we are talking about the lanyard that attaches to the boat driver guy, who is in control of the boat, possibly going at high speeds, so that if he becomes disconnected from the controls or falls out of the boat, the lanyard will kill the ignition to said boat so that it does not carry on it's current course, again, at possibly a high rate of speed, careening into other boats and/or people on the water?

If so, It should be quite hefty. Ignorance is no defense.

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Should be similar fines to speeding/reckless driving driving/driving while using device. That is also quite dangerous if it goes badly. The fine is there to get your attention, not make someone poor have to take out a loan to pay it.

trip98 said:

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Gunny456 said:

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Whenever I'm running our boats and going to be up on plane I have a pfd on. Most quality high performance or Mustang type vest have D-rings specifically to hook the safety lanyard into.
So it's double safe to develop a habit of slipping on the pfd when on plane and leave the safety lanyard hooked to it. When you stop to fish slip it off and hang the pfd on the steering wheel.
When I put the boat on the trailer I loop the safety lanyard around the steering wheel and hook it. That keeps it from blowing around and messing up your gel coat or boat finish and it assures you won't forget it.

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Great minds.....I do this EXACTLY to a T
Such an easy habit to build and comfortable too.

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I'm the same. I just leave the lanyard attached to my pfd and set it in the driver seat. (I keep the jacket attached and toss it in the storage locker behind the driver seat while trailered to keep the lanyard from flying around.)

It's an easy solution to avoid tragedy, so a no-brainer for me. Law or not, I'm wearing it.

I want to see a kill switch work on a sailboat.

I use my lanyard religiously, as I do my life vest when fishing alone, which is about 90% of the time.

As for no harm to others: who hasn't seen videos of run away boats crashing up on shore or towards another boat?

Tumble Weed said:

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I want to see a kill switch work on a sailboat.

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Maybe on those sailboats that have automatic rigging and or steering.

schmellba99 said:

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trip98 said:

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schmellba99 said:

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OneMoonGoon92 said:

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why are you mad? Its his ticket. Tell him to pay up or stay off the boat and go to jail.

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Well.....

1. There was no harmed party in not having the lanyard around his wrist. The LEO could have done something along the lines of given an education as to why it is necessary and a warning instead of automatically writing a ticket* instead of flipping out the ticket book and writing a ticket just because.

2. Near $300 for something like this is out of line in terms of fine for the action and show s that it is nothing more than a government money grab. Especially if it is the first time the kid has had any type of run in with the law.

3. Things like this are a great way for LEO's to be either seen as helpful and stewards of the public or flat out dicks. This guy obviously chose the flat out dick path.

*assuming no other issues with the stop. If kiddo was a jackass or something along those lines, he earned the ticket at that point.

Bottom line is that we get preached to every day about how LEO's just want to protect the public and do all of these good things, yada, yada, yada. Then a really chicken sht ticket like this gets written that, assuming the transaction was what the OP conveyed, should have been a friendly discussion and a warning. Which leads many to come to the conclusion that it is just another tax for not following some law somewhere that whatever government agency has decided we all need to follow to keep the king happy and fed.

---

2 counter thoughts...

1) when someone goes overboard not wearing kill switch and LEO is called out....how much does all of that cost the public for their response? Had person been wearing kill switch boat stops and likely they can get back into boat....no LEO needed and no cost to taxpayer. LEO can focus on more important things

2) the ticket can be viewed as a form of giving an education. It'll be a lesson dude won't forget and will think of every time he gets behind the helm.

if a teenager blows thru a stop sign at 40 mph but doesn't hit anyone so nobody is harmed are you okay with the kid just getting a warning?

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1. Hell, let's just go all the way - had the person not had a boat period it wouldn't have happened either in your scenario. So let's just get rid of all boats now, that will eliminate any and all boating accidents. If we are getting into the "what if" game, where does it end? That is literally a rabbit hole that is bottomless.

2. A ticket like that, especially on a first infraction, is not an education. That is nothing more than the government making sure you know you are under their thumb.

3. Your example of blowing through a stop sign and this aren't remotely the same, nice try though. This is more along the lines of "a teenager came to a california stop at 2am on a road when there was no traffic visible in any direction".

Sorry, tickets like these are the epitome of chicken sht and serve little value - especially on a first offense for what is more than likely a simple honest mistake/oversight by the operator - other than to separate you from your money and to make sure you know you are a subject. My mind isn't going to be changed on this either. Not every damned thing should be a fineable offense, and pretty much everything is.

Now, you get into the "hey, you've been warned about this before" territory, and sure - ticket is warranted at that point. But the whole mantra of "keeping you safe" is absolute crap IMO when everything is financially punitive.

The older I get, the more I realize how much every level of government does everything possible to find a way to separate you from your money, as if they don't do good enough on that with taxes. If things were really about safety as they are claimed, operations would be significantly different than they are now.

Pull the kid over, take a few minutes to lecture him on what the law is and why, send him on his way with a warning. Lesson is learned the same way in the overwhelming majority of cases and you don't have a kid that has a dislike of LEO's from the onset of his/her life behind the wheel. Pretty simple, straightforward and a positive interaction goes a lot further than a negative one.

But I digress, this is the OB and sometimes I forget where I am.

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yes, the OB used to be a place where you could have conversation. Now folks just want to take it to extremes. I'm not trying to change your mind. I knew I wouldn't. Same as you won't change my mind. But my mistake for thinking we could have a reasonable conversation about it. Maybe if we have a constructive conversation it educates folks who aren't as up on the topic as we are. but I guess this is the OB now

you could probably find folks who disagree with every law out there. Poachers don't give a **** about licenses or bag limits, etc.

As for gov't over reach, I'm guessing that you consider yourself a moral and ethical hunter/fisher. So do you need to buy a fishing/hunting license each year? I bet you still buy one.

I'm with you on government over reach (and don't get me started on their inexcusable, destructive spending and lack of balanced budget). But if you really look around you, it's everywhere and you play along with it in some cases so I find it odd that you want to draw the line on this type of item.

schmellba99 said:

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Gunny456 said:

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Yes sir. I mean we have fines five times that for throwing trash out on the road for goodness sakes.

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That are never actually enforced either.

The difference here is that not wearing a lanyard can easily be an simple honest mistake and there is no harmed party for not doing so.

Littering is a conscious choice made by trash people, has environmental impacts and at some point it costs all of us to have people pick it up.

Littering should be a $10k fine because it takes a massive d-bag to think it's OK to dump trash on the side of the road or leave it on the beach or whatever.

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also, I bet you drive a truck. you do realize something blows out of the bed and you can be fined for littering. I've had people throw trash in mine in parking lots. Didn't realize it and drive off and stuff blows out.
that wasn't a conscious effort on my part. complete accident. But I could be ticketed for it.

I think is probably a good learning lesson. My experience is that anything to do with game wardens/cops and hunting/boating etc. is a no tolerance sort of deal. I have heard of so many stories of people making honest mistakes and the game warden or cop is an a$$ about it. I am not sure why this is that way. My guess is that those game wardens and cops who constantly deal with belligerent drunks at deer camps and boats probably hate their job and just try to stick it to everyone and have no give or tolerance because of that.

This could also be a case where game wardens have observed a lot of people not using a kill switch device, and have started to crack down on it by issuing tickets.

I think what makes them an ass or not is independent of whether they write a ticket or not. There's a way to handle these interactions to deliver the message, but in a respectful, professional, friendly manner that hopefully sticks. Sure, everyone wants a warning and free pass, but I can't say a decision to follow and enforce the law as written makes any of these guys an ass. In fact, it is possible for one to be a completely unprofessional rick with a p but decide not to write ticket, while the respectful professional does write a ticket. That doesn't make the first a good guy and 2nd a ****ty guy

Like anything else people only want to beach and moan about bad stories. The good ones are not talked about as it doesn't get attention.
When was the last time someone on TA posted " Hey I got stopped today by a game warden and he wrote me a ticket…. but I was doing wrong and deserved it…glad he was doing his job well." ?
I have worked 40 years in the marine business and thousands of interactions with game wardens on the water in many states. I can count on one hand the bad experiences I have had.
Many states game departments do "ride-alongs". Its a good learning experience.

Years ago when I was in college, we were boarded for a safety check at Gibbons Creek. It was at that exact moment that I remembered the life jackets were drying in the backyard after we cleaned them. I explained our case to the game warden and he promptly wrote our ticket. Most surprising part is he said we were good for the day and if we were boarded again, just show them the ticket. Even back then, it was a pretty expensive ticket. I want to say +$200. That's a lesson I won't forget.

Quote:

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But my mistake for thinking we could have a reasonable conversation about it. Maybe if we have a constructive conversation it educates folks who aren't as up on the topic as we are. but I guess this is the OB now

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This has always been the OB and any other board on the internet, and is why a couple of regular OB posters you would have seen a few years ago post on other boards now but not this one.

Quote:

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As for gov't over reach, I'm guessing that you consider yourself a moral and ethical hunter/fisher. So do you need to buy a fishing/hunting license each year? I bet you still buy one.

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A fishing or hunting license is more about game management and enforcing limits.

Quote:

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I'm with you on government over reach (and don't get me started on their inexcusable, destructive spending and lack of balanced budget). But if you really look around you, it's everywhere and you play along with it in some cases so I find it odd that you want to draw the line on this type of item.

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Some of us aren't drawing a line as much as we're pointing out how effing dumb it is and is nothing more than a revenue stream they sell under the banner of safety so John Q. Public will just take it because "well, gosh darnit, it makes us safer!" If it was really about safety, they'd make someone with a jet boat from the 70s with a Chevy V8 in it (I know some have pedals) or old 17' bass boat with a 400 Merc on the back be retrofitted with a kill switch. But no, those guys can go blasting across the water at 70+ mph and be just fine where grandpa and grandma taking their young grandkids for a ride on a pontoon after dinner is required to wear it or he could be fined.

aTm2004 said:

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If it was really about safety, they'd make someone with a jet boat from the 70s with a Chevy V8 in it (I know some have pedals) or old 17' bass boat with a 400 Merc on the back be retrofitted with a kill switch.

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Unless I'm mistaken, those folks aren't exempt from having a kill switch and the lanyard being attached while underway.

maverick12 said:

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Years ago when I was in college, we were boarded for a safety check at Gibbons Creek. It was at that exact moment that I remembered the life jackets were drying in the backyard after we cleaned them. I explained our case to the game warden and he promptly wrote our ticket. Most surprising part is he said we were good for the day and if we were boarded again, just show them the ticket. Even back then, it was a pretty expensive ticket. I want to say +$200. That's a lesson I won't forget.

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Game Wardens that patrol lakes are the ones that give the others a bad name, IMO. My dad lives in Trinity and they go out a couple times a week and anchor off of whatever island is north of 356 and just chill. He's told me that a few times a year, he'll see the GWs trolling by glassing them and keep going, and the moment they pull anchor to head back to the house, those same GWs will rush up to pull them over looking to hopefully find him intoxicated. My dad has been on Lake Livingston since the early-90s and knows how they are, so he never takes alcohol on the boat.

Now, if it were really about safety, they'd pull up while they were anchored to make sure there's a sober driver, but no, they wait until they're underway so they can boost their numbers.

TarponChaser said:

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aTm2004 said:

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If it was really about safety, they'd make someone with a jet boat from the 70s with a Chevy V8 in it (I know some have pedals) or old 17' bass boat with a 400 Merc on the back be retrofitted with a kill switch.

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Unless I'm mistaken, those folks aren't exempt from having a kill switch and the lanyard being attached while underway.

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I'm using 16-26' because most recreational boats cruising lakes will fall into this length. My parents had a lakehouse on Lake Livingston when I was growing up, and I spent a lot of time on it from the late-80s to mid-90s and I don't recall ever seeing a boat with a kill switch...not counting waverunners or jet skis.

Powerboats 16 Feet but Less Than 26 Feet In Length: Required Safety Equipment


Engine Cut-Off Switch Lanyard
An engine cut-off switch (ECOS) is an emergency switch installed on a motorboat that is designed to shut off the engine. The motorboat operator wears a lanyard attachment that will activate the ECOS if the operator falls overboard or moves beyond the length of the lanyard. The operator or passenger may also wear a wireless attachment that will activate the ECOS if the operator or passenger fall overboard and submerge the water-activated man-overboard wireless transmitter.

If a vessel is equipped, the cut-off switch, lanyard, or wireless device must be attached to operator, operator's clothing, or operator's PFD. It must be worn by the operator when a motorboat is at greater than headway speed. Headway speed means slow, idle speed or speed only fast enough to maintain steerage without creating a swell or wake. The operator must also verify that the ECOS system is fully functioning prior to operating the vessel on public water.

Texas law does not require the retrofitting of any vessel that has not come equipped with an ECOS. This does not allow for the removal of an ECOS from a vessel that was originally equipped.

Over about 40 years of hunting, I've been checked by a game warden twice, and both times could have gotten a ticket.

First, as a teenager hunting in East Texas, I'd shot a button buck. Had been told previously that they could be tagged as antlerless, so I did. GW explained that the antlers had broken the skin, and therefore should have been tagged as a buck. He was friendly, explained what I should have done, and let me go on my way.

The second was after a duck hunt outside of Eagle Lake. The ducks were all in order, but I hadn't filled out the ranch location info for the deer I'd tagged that season. Again, this guy was friendly, pointed out my error, and moved on.

I'm sure that some are asses, but I've yet to run into one.