Like many new comers to firearm world I have stockpiled training ammo because that was cheapest.
I know better now and would like to build a significant reserve of ammo better for defensive purposes than FMJ.
Nevermind found my original question post about 9mm but still curious about rifle options.
Typical Eyeguy built AR in 5.56 is my rifle option though I also have a 7.62x39 AR that would also be an option.
So what say y'all, and yes I know I need to test several and see what works best, but get me started on what I should be testing or avoid all together?
Many thanks. Edited since I found my original 9mm post from a couple years back.

Most cheap 5.56mm ammo is built on the spec for the M193 cartridge that was replaced 30+ years ago by the M855 a.k.a. "green tip" or SS109. The M193 bullet is a 55gr FMJ and the M855 bullet is a 62gr FMJ with a steel core penetrator.

The advantage of M855 Is that it will have better terminal ballistics against plate body armor than the M193. The drawback is that it may not produce a large wound channel because the steel tip keeps the bullet from expanding on impact.

The difference in terminal ballistics between a .55gr and a 62gr bullet in the real world for unarmorwd threats is probably not significant. You can get cartridges with 75gr bullets but that is designed more for achieving accuracy at longer ranges than for improved terminal ballistics.

One of the big advantages of the 5.56mm cartridge over .30 caliber battle rifle cartridges is that the AR has a larger magazine capacity and you can carry more ammo. If you don't get the effects you need with the first hit, shoot him again.

Former Marine Corps Commandant James Conway was asked about the performance of the 5.56mm M4 Carbine in combat in Iraq. He said, "It's not the round, it's the shooter. If we hit them, we put them down. The problem is, we're not very good at hitting moving targets. "

My personal and unscientific opinion is that the most important attribute for 5.56mm ammo for defensive uses is a reliable primer and smooth feeding. Stoppages and misfires will have far more impact on your chances of survival than terminal ballistics in a fight

This is worth reading. I know its a lot, but it really is an outstanding resource.

https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Ulysses90 said:

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Most cheap 5.56mm ammo is built on the spec for the M193 cartridge that was replaced 30+ years ago by the M855 a.k.a. "green tip" or SS109. The M193 bullet is a 55gr FMJ and the M855 bullet is a 62gr FMJ with a steel core penetrator.

The advantage of M855 Is that it will have better terminal ballistics against plate body armor than the M193. The drawback is that it may not produce a large wound channel because the steel tip keeps the bullet from expanding on impact.

The difference in terminal ballistics between a .55gr and a 62gr bullet in the real world for unarmorwd threats is probably not significant. You can get cartridges with 75gr bullets but that is designed more for achieving accuracy at longer ranges than for improved terminal ballistics.

One of the big advantages of the 5.56mm cartridge over .30 caliber battle rifle cartridges is that the AR has a larger magazine capacity and you can carry more ammo. If you don't get the effects you need with the first hit, shoot him again.

Former Marine Corps Commandant James Conway was asked about the performance of the 5.56mm M4 Carbine in combat in Iraq. He said, "It's not the round, it's the shooter. If we hit them, we put them down. The problem is, we're not very good at hitting moving targets. "

My personal and unscientific opinion is that the most important attribute for 5.56mm ammo for defensive uses is a reliable primer and smooth feeding. Stoppages and misfires will have far more impact on your chances of survival than terminal ballistics in a fight

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This.

Something loaded with 77gr tipped match kings or 73gr ELDM would be ideal. Those maximize the performance of 5.56, and I think most would be surprised at how well they do. There are a lot of people putting down all types of big game animals with no fuss using those bullets out of a .223rem.

NRH ag 10 said:

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Something loaded with 77gr tipped match kings or 73gr ELDM would be ideal. Those maximize the performance of 5.56, and I think most would be surprised at how well they do. There are a lot of people putting down all types of big game animals with no fuss using those bullets out of a .223rem.

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All of this may be true, but none of it is relevant to the issue in the OP.

Cheap FMJ worked for Rittenhouse. I wouldn't overthink it.

He asked for ammo to use for defensive purposes that has better performance than FMJ dude.....

NRH ag 10 said:

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He asked for ammo to use for defensive purposes that has better performance than FMJ dude.....

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Well, in that case:

https://lehighdefense.com/

No one round that is the end all, every one has good aspects and negative aspects.

If wall penetration in the house is a primary concern, Hornady TAP (or Varmageddon fragmenting style projos) is what you want to look at. The drawback is that it lacks penetration on hard targets (not sure how it does on layers of clothing, can't look it up on my company network unfortuantely).

Anything that is good at penetration for harder/heavier targets is, by its very nature, going to be poor in terms of overpentration through walls (poor meaning it will penetrate through multiple walls and keep on going with lethal force).

You have to determine what is important for you and what your top 2-3 key metrics are. I'm happy with some 62 gr JHP's that I load up to approximate M855 velocities, but that may not be a good fit for anybody else.

I would make a fairly generic claim that FMJ or penetrator type rounds aren't ideal for what most would consider defensive purposes (unless you are concerned about technicals in vehicles or something, in which case - hard pass on your situation). Pass through is just about guaranteed with those types of projectiles, which isn't a bad thing if you don't have to worry about what is behind the target or regularly have to shoot through car doors and windshields. A round more designed towards hunting or a HP round will, very broadly speaking, be a better choice in most cases. (I say hunting because most of those rounds are designed to dump energy via expansion or fragmentation into soft tissue - but every single one will still pass through a soft target).

No matter what, rounds on target and function/reliability in your firearm are paramount.

BenderRodriguez said:

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This is worth reading. I know its a lot, but it really is an outstanding resource.
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

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Found and read that last night, definitely a lot to unpack in there and made it hard to follow on a phone screen.

How much you want to spend? Best all around is going to be a bonded soft point. Good expansion, deep penetration, and itll hold together well through barriers.

https://www.bonefroggunclub.com/products/556-62gr-federal-tactical-bonded-xm556sbct3?variant=3419832320026

I use Speer Gold Dots. Hard to beat & the work very well.

Excellent bullets. Same or very similar to federal fusion.

I keep a few ready magazines loaded with barrier blind ammunition. Winchester or Hornady TAP works.

Bought a bunch of Federal XM556SBCT3 online a few years ago which is the same as XM556FBIT3.

Animal Eight 84 said:

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I keep a few ready magazines loaded with barrier blind ammunition. Winchester or Hornady TAP works.

Bought a bunch of Federal XM556SBCT3 online a few years ago which is the same as XM556FBIT3.

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I have a magazine of Hornady TAP that lives in my rifle......but......I talked to Hornady about that ammo at the NRA show and the guy said that it was "law enforcement only" now. I haven't gone up the chain about that, but if its true it is deeply disappointing.

The link I posted has some good recs, and some good ones have been mentioned. Gold dots, taps, etc.

For a slightly more buy in bulk/but still better for defense option, I've been really happy with IMI 77gr loads. Have friends who sing the praises of aac's 77gr stuff too, but no personal experience. The 77gr loads seem to be less velocity dependent than 193/855 style loads, which is great for anything in an SBR length.

Its not as good as the specifically designed and loaded stuff like gold dot, but its pretty damn good.

Yea. mk 262 is what I have on hand and use because it works well in both my Mk 12 and my Mk 18 for accuracy and terminal performance. I have both IMI and Black hills stocked up. You

Those federal rounds from bone frog are supposed to be nice though.

Should have debated myself some more. Apologies OG

ShouldastayedataTm said:

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I debated doing this a good bit and decided to just put it in the thread versus a whole new thread for this off topic issue. I posted my question here about specific ammo recommendations. I have my email in my profile but am going to be removing it now because of this rather irritating response to me question.

It was an email to me that said this:

I saw your post on TexAg about seeking advice on AR ammo etc. If I can be of service to you, please let me know.

https://tacticalfamilydefense.com/


Ryan Campbell
O.G.

Minor inconvenience in the grand scheme of things and why I did not create a new thread for this, but this to me is wildly inappropriate. I did not ask about training I asked specifically about defensive ammo options for 5.56 versus the training ammo I stockpiled as a newbie that did not know better. I get it, Mr. Campbell has a training program he runs as a business or maybe he just works for the organization. Either way to me this is open solicitation and bothers me. Anyone else bothered that someone would dig into a profile find the email address and then solicit business uninvited only tangentially related to the topic at hand? The program says nothing about ammo sales on the website so not like it was an offer to sell me a defensive focused cartridge.

Tldnr: was contacted based on a specific question with an offer to do business not related to identifying a good defensive cartridge in 5.56 mm

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Dude, I already sent you an apolgy for bothering you. I have sent multiple others on this site info before on anything from Blue Lacy Dogs, to Pipeline info to good places to eat. You said you were new to the firearms game, I happen to know a thing or two about it. If you'd asked about anything else in my wheelhouse, I would have sent you a link to that too.

Might want to be careful calling people out.

No need for my response. My apologies for taking up space with unrelated mess.

ShouldastayedataTm said:

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Dude I posted the above before saw the other. And while you seem to think it is okay because you have done it before think again. And if you read the post, it says I made the mistake back when I was a newbie now want to correct it and wanted specific advice to which I get a link to a business that not only does not answer my quite specific question does not offer a way to remedy the issue either as there is no ammo sales on the business link you sent. I put it in here and not in a thread of it's own. But can remedy that as well.

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Cool.

CS78 said:

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How much you want to spend? Best all around is going to be a bonded soft point. Good expansion, deep penetration, and itll hold together well through barriers.

https://www.bonefroggunclub.com/products/556-62gr-federal-tactical-bonded-xm556sbct3?variant=3419832320026

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Welll crap, been a bone frog buyer…..where did they find 556sbct3? Thought they stopped making it.

Here ya go.

https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/

Personally. 77gr SMK or 70gr Barnes TSX.

The 77gr SMK can be found loaded by Blackhills, Sig Sauer, IMI Razorcore (my favorite), AAC (Palmetto State Armory). Just to name a few.

Link for IMI.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2090124928?pid=546028

Link for AAC.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/aac-5-56-nato-77-grain-sierra-matchking-hpbt-20rd-box.html

Link to black hills. It's a little pricier. Same accuracy as IMI. AAC has more of a spread in velocity over the IMI and Blackhills. IMI at least is somewhat reasonable in price

https://www.bonefroggunclub.com/products/5-56-77gr-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-c-mp460556n9

The 556 FBIT is some bad stuff….expensive so don't go shooting it all at the range.

https://www.bonefroggunclub.com/products/556-62gr-federal-tactical-bonded-xm556sbct3

Just a heads up for those recommending SMKs, I have read TMKs and ELDM are much more consistent in their upset and fragmentation. They would be better options if buying new.

I still have my main mags loaded with IMI razorcore, but it'll get shot up as I find TMK loaded ammo.

Getting slammed at 2500 fps or 1700 mph from an 12 inch barrel whether smk or Tmk or hornady eld is gonna be a bad day.

Yes, but it will be worse if the bullet actually fragments....

77gr smk has killed a lot of bad guys. There is a reason it is round of choice out of SBR 10.5in barrel.

If in doubt. Pick up some Barnes tsx 70 or 62 gr instead.

Speer and fusion share same bullet tech. Pick up some fusion MSR if one can find it.

If it can kill a hog. 2 legged creatures aren't much different

SMM48 said:

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77gr smk has killed a lot of bad guys. There is a reason it is round of choice out of SBR 10.5in barrel.

Great, wouldn't you want something that gives you the best 77gr SMK has to offer, more consistently and to a lower threshold velocity?

If in doubt. Pick up some Barnes tsx 70 or 62 gr instead.

No, copper bullets produce smaller wound channels than heavy for caliber, fragmenting bullets. This is the opposite of what I want.

Speer and fusion share same bullet tech. Pick up some fusion MSR if one can find it.

If it can kill a hog. 2 legged creatures aren't much different

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Responses in bold. You can skip the improved version of the venerable SMK if you want, doesn't matter to me. I'm trying to pass helpful info along.

Thanks all, great information and much appreciated. Now to start sourcing, obtaining samples, testing, and then stocking.

It probably doesn't matter as much with a rifle, but I like defensive ammo which is cheap enough to use in practice.

77SMK works well in 3 gun matches.

My brother uses 62 on hogs - mainly, because "my" suppressed AR, with his thermal, shoots it incredibly well. (I've never shot the gun or the suppressor)

no offense, but real world says copper 70gr and 62gr tsx is devastating.

Bradley.Kohr.II said:

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but I like defensive ammo which is cheap enough to use in practice.

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exactly, and no sense in wasting bear bonded, or tsx on paper.

SMM48 said:

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no offense, but real world says copper 70gr and 62gr tsx is devastating.

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Compared to what and in what way?

NRH ag 10 said:

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SMM48 said:

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no offense, but real world says copper 70gr and 62gr tsx is devastating.

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Compared to what and in what way?

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Dude, the TTSX and TSX are pretty well known for their very consistent expansion/mushrooming and weight retention and performance on all kinds of game from pigs to large game like elk. The performance begins to drop off when you start getting below ~1800fps velocities. The tip doesn't expand well the lower you get, which is pretty universal to most HP projos across the board.

I'm not a huge fan of the all copper, but I readily admit that Barnes does probably the best job when it comes to consistency and performance out of their all copper projectiles.

Fragmenting upon impact isn't all that great IMO, because while it looks really awesome in ballistic gel slow motion, the fact of the matter is that when a projectile fragments, it looses mass and those little fragments rarely penetrate deep (5"-6" generally in ballistic gelatin), so they end up doing very little in terms of terminal ballistic performance.

Where fragmenting projectiles shine is when you need or want as little penetration through barriers as possible, which is why TAP and Varmageddon type projectiles are about as ideal as you can get for using an AR as a defensive weapon indoors - most of the time after I believ e 2 layers of drywall they generally have lost most of their punch and the lethality of the round goes way, way down.