I don't know enough to make an opinion but I don't think ole Ted hunts many low fenced free range deer.

hopefully this BS finally gets some traction...... until then all you have to do is follow the money!!!

good ole boy network is alive and well in tpwd and Texas politicos

duddleysdraw88 said:

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hopefully this BS finally gets some traction...... until then all you have to do is follow the money!!!

good ole boy network is alive and well in tpwd and Texas politicos

---

Plenty of money to follow on both sides, unfortunately.

Deer breeders hoping to cash in to the last before the market collapses due to the extent to which CWD will continue to spread if they don't knock off the live animal transportation.

Anybody who thinks the money and good ol boy politics are on TPWD's side of the CWD issue is dreaming. TPWD had a very clear plan for how to manage CWD and threw their plan out the window under political pressure from members of the legislature pushed by deer breeder money. The TPWD management has been at odds with the agency professionals on how to proceed for years now, and it is mostly driven by threats to TPWDs funding from members of the legislature.

txags92 said:

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Anybody who thinks the money and good ol boy politics are on TPWD's side of the CWD issue is dreaming. TPWD had a very clear plan for how to manage CWD and threw their plan out the window under political pressure from members of the legislature pushed by deer breeder money. The TPWD management has been at odds with the agency professionals on how to proceed for years now, and it is mostly driven by threats to TPWDs funding from members of the legislature.

---

That is very one sided and naive take. Both sides are absolutely motivated by money and neither side is really interested in the best solution; they just want to implement THEIR solution.

Show me the money on the TPWD side.

96ags said:

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You did yourself when you mentioned "funding".

---

TPWD was threatened that their funding would be taken away if they followed through on their plan which would have resulted in stopping all live transport of deer many years ago. The threat came via a legislator with a position of authority on the committee that would have direct control over TPWD's budget and who had close relationships with several breeders. So the money in that case was coming from the breeder side, not the TPWD side. There is no "money" pushing what TPWD's professional biologists would do, just science and a healthy caution for continuing to let breeders transport deer with CWD all around the state while there is still so much we don't know about the disease.

TPWD has a duty to protect the natural resources that are entrusted to their care on behalf of all Texans. Letting breeders spread CWD to the wild herd and distribute it across the state is not fulfilling that duty. The only reason they have not put a ban in place already is that they know they will face an uphill fight in the legislature against funding cuts if they do so. Breeder money is pushing bad policy. There is no money pushing the other side.

txags92 said:

---

96ags said:

---

You did yourself when you mentioned "funding".

---

TPWD was threatened that their funding would be taken away if they followed through on their plan which would have resulted in stopping all live transport of deer many years ago. The threat came via a legislator with a position of authority on the committee that would have direct control over TPWD's budget and who had close relationships with several breeders. So the money in that case was coming from the breeder side, not the TPWD side. There is no "money" pushing what TPWD's professional biologists would do, just science and a healthy caution for continuing to let breeders transport deer with CWD all around the state while there is still so much we don't know about the disease.

TPWD has a duty to protect the natural resources that are entrusted to their care on behalf of all Texans. Letting breeders spread CWD to the wild herd and distribute it across the state is not fulfilling that duty. The only reason they have not put a ban in place already is that they know they will face an uphill fight in the legislature against funding cuts if they do so. Breeder money is pushing bad policy. There is no money pushing the other side.

---

Quote:

---

There is no "money" pushing what TPWD's professional biologists would do

---

This is just flat false. As I've already stated the money is in the form of millions upon millions of dollars in funding which equals power in the governmental agency world.

Quote:

---

there is still so much we don't know about the disease.

---

We don't know much about it, but let's give the govt complete control until we do??? Come on now.

Quote:

---

TPWD has a duty to protect the natural resources that are entrusted to their care on behalf of all Texans

---

This we agree on. I just want them to do it with a science and fact based approach.

Quote:

---

Breeder money is pushing bad policy

---

Bad policy is killing and wasting 100 healthy animals for every one positive you find. There is better ways available.

Go back and watch the video with Nugent and Macy Ledbetter. Ignore Ted's rants if you want, but Macy has skins on the wall. He knows what he is talking about.

96ags said:

---

txags92 said:

---

96ags said:

---

You did yourself when you mentioned "funding".

---

TPWD was threatened that their funding would be taken away if they followed through on their plan which would have resulted in stopping all live transport of deer many years ago. The threat came via a legislator with a position of authority on the committee that would have direct control over TPWD's budget and who had close relationships with several breeders. So the money in that case was coming from the breeder side, not the TPWD side. There is no "money" pushing what TPWD's professional biologists would do, just science and a healthy caution for continuing to let breeders transport deer with CWD all around the state while there is still so much we don't know about the disease.

TPWD has a duty to protect the natural resources that are entrusted to their care on behalf of all Texans. Letting breeders spread CWD to the wild herd and distribute it across the state is not fulfilling that duty. The only reason they have not put a ban in place already is that they know they will face an uphill fight in the legislature against funding cuts if they do so. Breeder money is pushing bad policy. There is no money pushing the other side.

---

Quote:

---

There is no "money" pushing what TPWD's professional biologists would do

---

This is just flat false. As I've already stated the money is in the form of millions upon millions of dollars in funding which equals power in the governmental agency world.

Quote:

---

there is still so much we don't know about the disease.

---

We don't know much about it, but let's give the govt complete control until we do??? Come on now.

Quote:

---

TPWD has a duty to protect the natural resources that are entrusted to their care on behalf of all Texans

---

This we agree on. I just want them to do it with a science and fact based approach.

Quote:

---

Breeder money is pushing bad policy

---

Bad policy is killing and wasting 100 healthy animals for every one positive you find. There is better ways available.

Go back and watch the video with Nugent and Macy Ledbetter. Ignore Ted's rants if you want, but Macy has skins on the wall. He knows what he is talking about.

---

You are missing the point. Having money on the TPWD side would imply that they would get more funding if they did it their way than if they did it the breeder's way. There is no such money involved. If TWPD does it their way, they lose funding. If TPWD does what the breeders want by continuing to allow live transport, they get to keep their funding intact. Money in this issue is all on the breeder side. Good ol boy politics is on the breeders' side in this issue. TPWD gains nothing financially or politically if they were to do what the professional biologists have recommended instead of treating the breeders with kid gloves like they have been.

And the responsible thing to do for the sake of the resource they are tasked with protecting is to stop transporting deer with CWD around the state until they know more about it. CWD has been spread to dozens of Texas counties where it would not have otherwise been in the back of trailers carrying deer from breeder operations. Anybody who had their herd completely killed either had multiple positive deer in separate events and/or refused all of the other options for testing and movement restrictions. Herd depopulation is not and has not been TPWD's first line of action at any point, including when they had their own plan in place.

We can agree or disagree about the risk CWD presents to humans, but it absolutely presents a risk to the native white tailed deer in Texas, and the responsible thing to do would be to stop moving deer from breeder operations (the clear source of nearly all the spread of CWD to new counties in Texas) until we have a better understanding of the disease and better ways to test live deer before transport.

96ags said:

---

txags92 said:

---

96ags said:

---

txags92 said:

---

96ags said:

---

You did yourself when you mentioned "funding".

---

TPWD was threatened that their funding would be taken away if they followed through on their plan which would have resulted in stopping all live transport of deer many years ago. The threat came via a legislator with a position of authority on the committee that would have direct control over TPWD's budget and who had close relationships with several breeders. So the money in that case was coming from the breeder side, not the TPWD side. There is no "money" pushing what TPWD's professional biologists would do, just science and a healthy caution for continuing to let breeders transport deer with CWD all around the state while there is still so much we don't know about the disease.

TPWD has a duty to protect the natural resources that are entrusted to their care on behalf of all Texans. Letting breeders spread CWD to the wild herd and distribute it across the state is not fulfilling that duty. The only reason they have not put a ban in place already is that they know they will face an uphill fight in the legislature against funding cuts if they do so. Breeder money is pushing bad policy. There is no money pushing the other side.

---

Quote:

---

There is no "money" pushing what TPWD's professional biologists would do

---

This is just flat false. As I've already stated the money is in the form of millions upon millions of dollars in funding which equals power in the governmental agency world.

Quote:

---

there is still so much we don't know about the disease.

---

We don't know much about it, but let's give the govt complete control until we do??? Come on now.

Quote:

---

TPWD has a duty to protect the natural resources that are entrusted to their care on behalf of all Texans

---

This we agree on. I just want them to do it with a science and fact based approach.

Quote:

---

Breeder money is pushing bad policy

---

Bad policy is killing and wasting 100 healthy animals for every one positive you find. There is better ways available.

Go back and watch the video with Nugent and Macy Ledbetter. Ignore Ted's rants if you want, but Macy has skins on the wall. He knows what he is talking about.

---

You are missing the point. Having money on the TPWD side would imply that they would get more funding if they did it their way than if they did it the breeder's way. There is no such money involved. If TWPD does it their way, they lose funding. If TPWD does what the breeders want by continuing to allow live transport, they get to keep their funding intact. Money in this issue is all on the breeder side. Good ol boy politics is on the breeders' side in this issue. TPWD gains nothing financially or politically if they were to do what the professional biologists have recommended instead of treating the breeders with kid gloves like they have been.

And the responsible thing to do for the sake of the resource they are tasked with protecting is to stop transporting deer with CWD around the state until they know more about it. CWD has been spread to dozens of Texas counties where it would not have otherwise been in the back of trailers carrying deer from breeder operations. Anybody who had their herd completely killed either had multiple positive deer in separate events and/or refused all of the other options for testing and movement restrictions. Herd depopulation is not and has not been TPWD's first line of action at any point, including when they had their own plan in place.

We can agree or disagree about the risk CWD presents to humans, but it absolutely presents a risk to the native white tailed deer in Texas, and the responsible thing to do would be to stop moving deer from breeder operations (the clear source of nearly all the spread of CWD to new counties in Texas) until we have a better understanding of the disease and better ways to test live deer before transport.

---

You are absolutely wrong about the funding. I'm sorry you are unwilling to listen and learn.

You are biased and have bur in your saddle about breeders and facts be damned.

I wish you would at least try and take your blinders off and see the whole picture.

---

So tell me where I am wrong in a few sentences without making me go watch a bunch of deer breeder bull***** If it is such a simple concept, tell me what additional funding TPWD stands to get if they stop deer breeders from transporting deer? I know a lot more than you think because I have spoken to many of the TPWD folks and have read many of the internal documents from them that have never made it to the public. There is no secret well funded agenda in TPWD that is out to get the deer breeders. You are refusing to state where you think the money is on TPWD's side because there isn't any. They either do what the breeders want and keep allowing live transport, or they lose funding. The money is all on maintaining the status quo that keeps allowing transport of deer.

I am biased and have a bur under my saddle because deer breeders have been treating a wildlife game species as for profit livestock for decades and in the process of doing so have spread CWD across the state and into the wild herd in places that CWD would not have otherwise reached for decades, if at all.

I wish you would take the blinders off and look at some sources of information besides Ted Nugent (who has big money connections to deer breeders) and Dr. Deer (who makes a living consulting for deer breeders).

So why did you bold the spread of the disease comment in my post? Were you planning to contest that with some information claiming deer at a breeding facility in Lavaca county or Hunt county or any of the other counties where it has never been found before caught it from the wild herd there instead of coming over in a trailer from another breeder? It is absolutely beyond question that CWD has been spread across Texas by breeder facility deer and you have zero credibility if you try to claim otherwise.

txags92 said:

---

96ags said:

---

txags92 said:

---

96ags said:

---

txags92 said:

---

96ags said:

---

You did yourself when you mentioned "funding".

---

TPWD was threatened that their funding would be taken away if they followed through on their plan which would have resulted in stopping all live transport of deer many years ago. The threat came via a legislator with a position of authority on the committee that would have direct control over TPWD's budget and who had close relationships with several breeders. So the money in that case was coming from the breeder side, not the TPWD side. There is no "money" pushing what TPWD's professional biologists would do, just science and a healthy caution for continuing to let breeders transport deer with CWD all around the state while there is still so much we don't know about the disease.

TPWD has a duty to protect the natural resources that are entrusted to their care on behalf of all Texans. Letting breeders spread CWD to the wild herd and distribute it across the state is not fulfilling that duty. The only reason they have not put a ban in place already is that they know they will face an uphill fight in the legislature against funding cuts if they do so. Breeder money is pushing bad policy. There is no money pushing the other side.

---

Quote:

---

There is no "money" pushing what TPWD's professional biologists would do

---

This is just flat false. As I've already stated the money is in the form of millions upon millions of dollars in funding which equals power in the governmental agency world.

Quote:

---

there is still so much we don't know about the disease.

---

We don't know much about it, but let's give the govt complete control until we do??? Come on now.

Quote:

---

TPWD has a duty to protect the natural resources that are entrusted to their care on behalf of all Texans

---

This we agree on. I just want them to do it with a science and fact based approach.

Quote:

---

Breeder money is pushing bad policy

---

Bad policy is killing and wasting 100 healthy animals for every one positive you find. There is better ways available.

Go back and watch the video with Nugent and Macy Ledbetter. Ignore Ted's rants if you want, but Macy has skins on the wall. He knows what he is talking about.

---

You are missing the point. Having money on the TPWD side would imply that they would get more funding if they did it their way than if they did it the breeder's way. There is no such money involved. If TWPD does it their way, they lose funding. If TPWD does what the breeders want by continuing to allow live transport, they get to keep their funding intact. Money in this issue is all on the breeder side. Good ol boy politics is on the breeders' side in this issue. TPWD gains nothing financially or politically if they were to do what the professional biologists have recommended instead of treating the breeders with kid gloves like they have been.

And the responsible thing to do for the sake of the resource they are tasked with protecting is to stop transporting deer with CWD around the state until they know more about it. CWD has been spread to dozens of Texas counties where it would not have otherwise been in the back of trailers carrying deer from breeder operations. Anybody who had their herd completely killed either had multiple positive deer in separate events and/or refused all of the other options for testing and movement restrictions. Herd depopulation is not and has not been TPWD's first line of action at any point, including when they had their own plan in place.

We can agree or disagree about the risk CWD presents to humans, but it absolutely presents a risk to the native white tailed deer in Texas, and the responsible thing to do would be to stop moving deer from breeder operations (the clear source of nearly all the spread of CWD to new counties in Texas) until we have a better understanding of the disease and better ways to test live deer before transport.

---

You are absolutely wrong about the funding. I'm sorry you are unwilling to listen and learn.

You are biased and have bur in your saddle about breeders and facts be damned.

I wish you would at least try and take your blinders off and see the whole picture.

---

So tell me where I am wrong in a few sentences without making me go watch a bunch of deer breeder bull***** If it is such a simple concept, tell me what additional funding TPWD stands to get if they stop deer breeders from transporting deer? I know a lot more than you think because I have spoken to many of the TPWD folks and have read many of the internal documents from them that have never made it to the public. There is no secret well funded agenda in TPWD that is out to get the deer breeders. You are refusing to state where you think the money is on TPWD's side because there isn't any. They either do what the breeders want and keep allowing live transport, or they lose funding. The money is all on maintaining the status quo that keeps allowing transport of deer.

I am biased and have a bur under my saddle because deer breeders have been treating a wildlife game species as for profit livestock for decades and in the process of doing so have spread CWD across the state and into the wild herd in places that CWD would not have otherwise reached for decades, if at all.

I wish you would take the blinders off and look at some sources of information besides Ted Nugent (who has big money connections to deer breeders) and Dr. Deer (who makes a living consulting for deer breeders).

So why did you bold the spread of the disease comment in my post? Were you planning to contest that with some information claiming deer at a breeding facility in Lavaca county or Hunt county or any of the other counties where it has never been found before caught it from the wild herd there instead of coming over in a trailer from another breeder? It is absolutely beyond question that CWD has been spread across Texas by breeder facility deer and you have zero credibility if you try to claim otherwise.

---

So a 12 minute video interviewing a Texas A&M trained, career wildlife biologist is just too much time for you to commit? Says it all doesn't.

It is as obvious as the nose on your face that the bigger deal CWD becomes, the more funding that will follow. TPWD know this. Texas Animal Health Commission knows this. That's why they are fighting to have their way.

I've looked at this from both sides (unlike you), and have said all along that it stinks all the way around. Both sides have their motivation and neither is looking out for the best interest of wild animals in Texas. Nobody that willingly and wastefully kills 337,000 healthy deer can claim the moral high ground.

I bolded you comment because of the silliness of it. You have no idea where CWD has been or ever would have been found naturally with or without deer breeders. You're just speaking out hatred and ignorance.

I would really like to have an open conversation with you about this, but you clearly emotionally invested in one side and refuse to even listen to facts that don't support your stance. I'm sorry about that.

Just as backup to that last part, here is a map of how many deer exposed to CWD at breeder facilities have been released by county since 2018:



On TPWD's list of CWD positive tests, there are 663 entries. Of those, 538 by my count are listed as either at a breeder facility, or at a breeder release site. Of the remaining 125, I count 4 white tails that are not either adjacent to a breeder or breeder release site (many of the Medina County positives), in a county with multiple CWD contaminated breeder facilities (Medina County), or in one of about four counties in the panhandle or west Texas that are adjacent to previously known CWD positive populations in New Mexico (Hartley, Dallam, El Paso, or Hudspeth). Even with the big push for CWD testing by TPWD, that is where the positives are coming from. So lets put that issue to bed. In any of those counties shown on the map above, if CWD is there, it got there in a breeder deer. Period.

txags92 said:

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Just as backup to that last part, here is a map of how many deer exposed to CWD at breeder facilities have been released by county since 2018:



On TPWD's list of CWD positive tests, there are 663 entries. Of those, 538 by my count are listed as either at a breeder facility, or at a breeder release site. Of the remaining 125, I count 4 white tails that are not either adjacent to a breeder or breeder release site (many of the Medina County positives), in a county with multiple CWD contaminated breeder facilities (Medina County), or in one of about four counties in the panhandle or west Texas that are adjacent to previously known CWD positive populations in New Mexico (Hartley, Dallam, El Paso, or Hudspeth). Even with the big push for CWD testing by TPWD, that is where the positives are coming from. So lets put that issue to bed. In any of those counties shown on the map above, if CWD is there, it got there in a breeder deer. Period.

---

How many wild deer are tested annually vs captive deer? What are the detection rates in the wild vs at breeders? I havent seen or heard about any places in county im at to go test. Nor would I, as soon as you have a positive deer killed in the wild all hell breaks loose and inviting trouble. Breeders have no choice but to test vs the public volunteering

txags92 said:

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montanagriz said:

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https://www.aphis.usda.gov/funding/cwd

https://www.trcp.org/2023/02/16/hunters-helped-pass-cwd-bill-whats-next/

---

Ok, so USDA is offering up $12 million in research funding, half of which is for research on farmed cervids or on tribal lands (which TPWD doesn't oversee). And TPWD would have to compete with 30 other states and many other academic interests for a chance at any of that funding? And the same for the TCRP funding? So lets go out on a limb and say TPWD gets $5 million which would be a much larger share of the pie than just splitting it evenly among the CWD positive states. The TPWD budget for FY 2024 is $592 million. So you are saying they would gladly risk large cuts to their budget and regulatory power in return for potentially getting funding that is less than 1% of their current budget and would be spread out over several years?

I think a big part of the disconnect here is that people think TPWD isn't doing what the breeders want already. So they think TPWD is "getting what they want" in the form of more visibility and funding for CWD research at the expense of breeders? TPWD would have been much harder on the breeders and would have cut off live transport if the breeders hadn't put pressure on them politically via threats to their funding. If you don't believe me, ask Ursusguy about it and he will tell you the same. There is certainly a lot of interest in TPWD for more research funding, because they are stuck letting CWD get spread around the state under their watch and can't do anything else about it. But that drop in the bucket of research money is nothing compared to the financial incentives breeders and their mouthpieces have to keep the gravy train rolling.

---

Your telling me tpwd gets 592 million? They cant keep fairfield lake or the lease in east texas from the paper mill company? Or buy more land for hunting access? Or get more public land/state land available to hunters? Why are we funding if all we do is help maintain hiking trails for the hippies? 592 million?

96ags said:

---

txags92 said:

---

96ags said:

---

txags92 said:

---

96ags said:

---

txags92 said:

---

96ags said:

---

You did yourself when you mentioned "funding".

---

TPWD was threatened that their funding would be taken away if they followed through on their plan which would have resulted in stopping all live transport of deer many years ago. The threat came via a legislator with a position of authority on the committee that would have direct control over TPWD's budget and who had close relationships with several breeders. So the money in that case was coming from the breeder side, not the TPWD side. There is no "money" pushing what TPWD's professional biologists would do, just science and a healthy caution for continuing to let breeders transport deer with CWD all around the state while there is still so much we don't know about the disease.

TPWD has a duty to protect the natural resources that are entrusted to their care on behalf of all Texans. Letting breeders spread CWD to the wild herd and distribute it across the state is not fulfilling that duty. The only reason they have not put a ban in place already is that they know they will face an uphill fight in the legislature against funding cuts if they do so. Breeder money is pushing bad policy. There is no money pushing the other side.

---

Quote:

---

There is no "money" pushing what TPWD's professional biologists would do

---

This is just flat false. As I've already stated the money is in the form of millions upon millions of dollars in funding which equals power in the governmental agency world.

Quote:

---

there is still so much we don't know about the disease.

---

We don't know much about it, but let's give the govt complete control until we do??? Come on now.

Quote:

---

TPWD has a duty to protect the natural resources that are entrusted to their care on behalf of all Texans

---

This we agree on. I just want them to do it with a science and fact based approach.

Quote:

---

Breeder money is pushing bad policy

---

Bad policy is killing and wasting 100 healthy animals for every one positive you find. There is better ways available.

Go back and watch the video with Nugent and Macy Ledbetter. Ignore Ted's rants if you want, but Macy has skins on the wall. He knows what he is talking about.

---

You are missing the point. Having money on the TPWD side would imply that they would get more funding if they did it their way than if they did it the breeder's way. There is no such money involved. If TWPD does it their way, they lose funding. If TPWD does what the breeders want by continuing to allow live transport, they get to keep their funding intact. Money in this issue is all on the breeder side. Good ol boy politics is on the breeders' side in this issue. TPWD gains nothing financially or politically if they were to do what the professional biologists have recommended instead of treating the breeders with kid gloves like they have been.

And the responsible thing to do for the sake of the resource they are tasked with protecting is to stop transporting deer with CWD around the state until they know more about it. CWD has been spread to dozens of Texas counties where it would not have otherwise been in the back of trailers carrying deer from breeder operations. Anybody who had their herd completely killed either had multiple positive deer in separate events and/or refused all of the other options for testing and movement restrictions. Herd depopulation is not and has not been TPWD's first line of action at any point, including when they had their own plan in place.

We can agree or disagree about the risk CWD presents to humans, but it absolutely presents a risk to the native white tailed deer in Texas, and the responsible thing to do would be to stop moving deer from breeder operations (the clear source of nearly all the spread of CWD to new counties in Texas) until we have a better understanding of the disease and better ways to test live deer before transport.

---

You are absolutely wrong about the funding. I'm sorry you are unwilling to listen and learn.

You are biased and have bur in your saddle about breeders and facts be damned.

I wish you would at least try and take your blinders off and see the whole picture.

---

So tell me where I am wrong in a few sentences without making me go watch a bunch of deer breeder bull***** If it is such a simple concept, tell me what additional funding TPWD stands to get if they stop deer breeders from transporting deer? I know a lot more than you think because I have spoken to many of the TPWD folks and have read many of the internal documents from them that have never made it to the public. There is no secret well funded agenda in TPWD that is out to get the deer breeders. You are refusing to state where you think the money is on TPWD's side because there isn't any. They either do what the breeders want and keep allowing live transport, or they lose funding. The money is all on maintaining the status quo that keeps allowing transport of deer.

I am biased and have a bur under my saddle because deer breeders have been treating a wildlife game species as for profit livestock for decades and in the process of doing so have spread CWD across the state and into the wild herd in places that CWD would not have otherwise reached for decades, if at all.

I wish you would take the blinders off and look at some sources of information besides Ted Nugent (who has big money connections to deer breeders) and Dr. Deer (who makes a living consulting for deer breeders).

So why did you bold the spread of the disease comment in my post? Were you planning to contest that with some information claiming deer at a breeding facility in Lavaca county or Hunt county or any of the other counties where it has never been found before caught it from the wild herd there instead of coming over in a trailer from another breeder? It is absolutely beyond question that CWD has been spread across Texas by breeder facility deer and you have zero credibility if you try to claim otherwise.

---

So a 12 minute video interviewing a Texas A&M trained, career wildlife biologist is just too much time for you to commit? Says it all doesn't.

It is as obvious as the nose on your face that the bigger deal CWD becomes, the more funding that will follow. TPWD know this. Texas Animal Health Commission knows this. That's why they are fighting to have their way.

I've looked at this from both sides (unlike you), and have said all along that it stinks all the way around. Both sides have their motivation and neither is looking out for the best interest of wild animals in Texas. Nobody that willingly and wastefully kills 337,000 healthy deer can claim the moral high ground.

I bolded you comment because of the silliness of it. You have no idea where CWD has been or ever would have been found naturally with or without deer breeders. You're just speaking out hatred and ignorance.

I would really like to have an open conversation with you about this, but you clearly emotionally invested in one side and refuse to even listen to facts that don't support your stance. I'm sorry about that.

---

You mean the Texas A&M trained biologist who on his own website advertising the kinds of management services he provides to deer breeders and others selling trophy hunts tells us that he spends most of his time when the legislature is in session at the capitol advocating on behalf of his clients? So a serious, non-biased science guy right? Not somebody with a financial incentive to keep the status quo? He is just another deer breeder mouthpiece who has a huge financial incentive to see things stay the way they are.

Look, there is plenty of room for differing opinions on how big of a deal CWD is, but the fact of the matter is that nobody knows for sure. The avenue to find out more is more research, which is what you seem to be arguing against, since TPWD is apparently evil and on the wrong side if they are hoping for more funding to pursue it. Any conclusions that anybody is drawing right now are based on a horribly incomplete dataset that is only a tiny snapshot of the full picture. But arguing that TPWD is motivated more by money than science is just stupid and makes you look silly for suggesting it.

The same old posters are here spewing their nonsense from one paid off biologist and and a 70s rock star.

Captive breeding operations and transportation is THE reason CWD is even discussed in this state. It is wholly responsible for the exponential spread of CWD in Texas. To think otherwise is obtuse and based in ignorance. The majority of this state likely would have never seen CWD, but it is likely now going to be widespread.

Actual biologists recommendations have been curtailed for years by big money breeder politics. The public is waking up to that fact and TPWD is finally doing something about it. But if we want real change we need legislation banning the transport of live deer in this state.

We are letting (probably too late) the self interests of a few ruin the native deer herd.

This nonsense about TPWD funding is ridiculous.

This all coming from someone who has and will eat CWD infected meat until someone actually gets infected from it.

I see you follow Kroll. He has significant stakes in breeding operations and is highly biased. He also picks the numbers and words he uses very carefully.

CWD has been known since the 60's, and it was almost exclusively limited to western states and in mule deer and elk. In Texas, there was a couple of cases of it being detected - all in mule deer IIRC - in the panhandle and maybe way out in El Paso area.

Then deer breeding became a thing and all of a sudden multiple cases pop up along the 35 corridor - where, coincdentally, most deer breeding operations are located. Deer breeding is the single biggest - not the only cause, but the single biggest by far - contributing factor to the spread of the disease and the numbers show it in spades.

https://instagr.am/p/Cs9JxLiupez

96ags said:

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txags92 said:

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96ags said:

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txags92 said:

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96ags said:

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txags92 said:

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96ags said:

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txags92 said:

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96ags said:

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You did yourself when you mentioned "funding".

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TPWD was threatened that their funding would be taken away if they followed through on their plan which would have resulted in stopping all live transport of deer many years ago. The threat came via a legislator with a position of authority on the committee that would have direct control over TPWD's budget and who had close relationships with several breeders. So the money in that case was coming from the breeder side, not the TPWD side. There is no "money" pushing what TPWD's professional biologists would do, just science and a healthy caution for continuing to let breeders transport deer with CWD all around the state while there is still so much we don't know about the disease.

TPWD has a duty to protect the natural resources that are entrusted to their care on behalf of all Texans. Letting breeders spread CWD to the wild herd and distribute it across the state is not fulfilling that duty. The only reason they have not put a ban in place already is that they know they will face an uphill fight in the legislature against funding cuts if they do so. Breeder money is pushing bad policy. There is no money pushing the other side.

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There is no "money" pushing what TPWD's professional biologists would do

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This is just flat false. As I've already stated the money is in the form of millions upon millions of dollars in funding which equals power in the governmental agency world.

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there is still so much we don't know about the disease.

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We don't know much about it, but let's give the govt complete control until we do??? Come on now.

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TPWD has a duty to protect the natural resources that are entrusted to their care on behalf of all Texans

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This we agree on. I just want them to do it with a science and fact based approach.

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Breeder money is pushing bad policy

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Bad policy is killing and wasting 100 healthy animals for every one positive you find. There is better ways available.

Go back and watch the video with Nugent and Macy Ledbetter. Ignore Ted's rants if you want, but Macy has skins on the wall. He knows what he is talking about.

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You are missing the point. Having money on the TPWD side would imply that they would get more funding if they did it their way than if they did it the breeder's way. There is no such money involved. If TWPD does it their way, they lose funding. If TPWD does what the breeders want by continuing to allow live transport, they get to keep their funding intact. Money in this issue is all on the breeder side. Good ol boy politics is on the breeders' side in this issue. TPWD gains nothing financially or politically if they were to do what the professional biologists have recommended instead of treating the breeders with kid gloves like they have been.

And the responsible thing to do for the sake of the resource they are tasked with protecting is to stop transporting deer with CWD around the state until they know more about it. CWD has been spread to dozens of Texas counties where it would not have otherwise been in the back of trailers carrying deer from breeder operations. Anybody who had their herd completely killed either had multiple positive deer in separate events and/or refused all of the other options for testing and movement restrictions. Herd depopulation is not and has not been TPWD's first line of action at any point, including when they had their own plan in place.

We can agree or disagree about the risk CWD presents to humans, but it absolutely presents a risk to the native white tailed deer in Texas, and the responsible thing to do would be to stop moving deer from breeder operations (the clear source of nearly all the spread of CWD to new counties in Texas) until we have a better understanding of the disease and better ways to test live deer before transport.

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You are absolutely wrong about the funding. I'm sorry you are unwilling to listen and learn.

You are biased and have bur in your saddle about breeders and facts be damned.

I wish you would at least try and take your blinders off and see the whole picture.

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So tell me where I am wrong in a few sentences without making me go watch a bunch of deer breeder bull***** If it is such a simple concept, tell me what additional funding TPWD stands to get if they stop deer breeders from transporting deer? I know a lot more than you think because I have spoken to many of the TPWD folks and have read many of the internal documents from them that have never made it to the public. There is no secret well funded agenda in TPWD that is out to get the deer breeders. You are refusing to state where you think the money is on TPWD's side because there isn't any. They either do what the breeders want and keep allowing live transport, or they lose funding. The money is all on maintaining the status quo that keeps allowing transport of deer.

I am biased and have a bur under my saddle because deer breeders have been treating a wildlife game species as for profit livestock for decades and in the process of doing so have spread CWD across the state and into the wild herd in places that CWD would not have otherwise reached for decades, if at all.

I wish you would take the blinders off and look at some sources of information besides Ted Nugent (who has big money connections to deer breeders) and Dr. Deer (who makes a living consulting for deer breeders).

So why did you bold the spread of the disease comment in my post? Were you planning to contest that with some information claiming deer at a breeding facility in Lavaca county or Hunt county or any of the other counties where it has never been found before caught it from the wild herd there instead of coming over in a trailer from another breeder? It is absolutely beyond question that CWD has been spread across Texas by breeder facility deer and you have zero credibility if you try to claim otherwise.

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So a 12 minute video interviewing a Texas A&M trained, career wildlife biologist is just too much time for you to commit? Says it all doesn't.

It is as obvious as the nose on your face that the bigger deal CWD becomes, the more funding that will follow. TPWD know this. Texas Animal Health Commission knows this. That's why they are fighting to have their way.

I've looked at this from both sides (unlike you), and have said all along that it stinks all the way around. Both sides have their motivation and neither is looking out for the best interest of wild animals in Texas. Nobody that willingly and wastefully kills 337,000 healthy deer can claim the moral high ground.

I bolded you comment because of the silliness of it. You have no idea where CWD has been or ever would have been found naturally with or without deer breeders. You're just speaking out hatred and ignorance.

I would really like to have an open conversation with you about this, but you clearly emotionally invested in one side and refuse to even listen to facts that don't support your stance. I'm sorry about that.

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You mean the Texas A&M trained biologist who on his own website advertising the kinds of management services he provides to deer breeders and others selling trophy hunts tells us that he spends most of his time when the legislature is in session at the capitol advocating on behalf of his clients? So a serious, non-biased science guy right? Not somebody with a financial incentive to keep the status quo? He is just another deer breeder mouthpiece who has a huge financial incentive to see things stay the way they are.

Look, there is plenty of room for differing opinions on how big of a deal CWD is, but the fact of the matter is that nobody knows for sure. The avenue to find out more is more research, which is what you seem to be arguing against, since TPWD is apparently evil and on the wrong side if they are hoping for more funding to pursue it. Any conclusions that anybody is drawing right now are based on a horribly incomplete dataset that is only a tiny snapshot of the full picture. But arguing that TPWD is motivated more by money than science is just stupid and makes you look silly for suggesting it.

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The biologist that you lambasted above listed 4 different private and publicly funded alternatives that are already in the works outside of TPWD an TAHC, but you were too damn stubborn to watch. "Period"

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Ok, I watched the video and it started with a disgusting pack of lies and never got better. The ranches in question signed up with TWPD to get the permit to treat wild game animals as livestock. Those permits came with requirements that included how they would handle CWD and TPWD didn't force anybody off their land over CWD. They may have revoked breeder permits and exercised their last choice option of killing their whole herd a few times (I only know of about 4-5 times), but only after landowners turned down a whole bunch of other much less extreme options. And claiming that TPWD has killed 300,000+ deer is ridiculously wrong. They may have required a number of post-mortem tests to be collected as part of the process (most of which came from testing animals killed by paying hunters at breeder ranches or breeder release sites), but the number actually killed by TPWD is not within an order of magnitude or two of 300,000. The killed deer were transported to somewhere for burial to avoid allowing the potential CWD to spread. And what happens if they serve that meat to somebody before they have results back and somebody ends up with CJD? Until recently there were no live tests, so accessing lymph notes or brain tissue was required to get the material they needed to test.

Ted makes a bunch of theatrics about the whole thing, but none of it happened the way he or Macy claimed. I actually have less respect for Macy after watching the video because he doesn't even attempt to correct Ted when he is not being accurate or honest.

The accuracy of the live tests they mentioned are in use by TPWD to let breeders keep moving deer and are not accurate enough. The number of animals subsequently testing positive after being cleared for movement based on those tests makes that clear. The tests he mentioned are the ones TPWD relied on when depopulating Kerr over what turned out to be a false positive. They were roundly criticized for that decision by plenty of folks here. So which is it? Are the tests reliable? Or are TPWD rubes for believing they were reliable? You can't have it both ways.

The supplemental feeding claim is just BS unless it is backed up by science, which I have seen no evidence of. And he complains that TPWD is not participating in funding research, but you guys are claiming that they are money grubbing to want more research money. Which is it? They are spending about $2 million a year, mostly on more testing. Do you want them to do more research or not? If so, you can't turn around and call them money grubbers for trying to get more money for research.

Look, I get that being rabidly antigovernment about everything is part of Ted's schtick. I share his opinion about a lot of what goes on in government. But to me, the tale of how TPWD was forced to abandon a management plan that was developed in cooperation with breeders and included Dr. Deer is a tale of government corruption. The breeders got their guys in the legislature to let TPWD know what the consequences would be for trying to follow the plan as it was developed. Most of that spread of CWD exposed deer on that map I posted previously would not have happened if they had followed the plan. It would have also saved them from having to kill a lot of those deer in herds they eventually depopulated.

montanagriz said:

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txags92 said:

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montanagriz said:

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https://www.aphis.usda.gov/funding/cwd

https://www.trcp.org/2023/02/16/hunters-helped-pass-cwd-bill-whats-next/

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Ok, so USDA is offering up $12 million in research funding, half of which is for research on farmed cervids or on tribal lands (which TPWD doesn't oversee). And TPWD would have to compete with 30 other states and many other academic interests for a chance at any of that funding? And the same for the TCRP funding? So lets go out on a limb and say TPWD gets $5 million which would be a much larger share of the pie than just splitting it evenly among the CWD positive states. The TPWD budget for FY 2024 is $592 million. So you are saying they would gladly risk large cuts to their budget and regulatory power in return for potentially getting funding that is less than 1% of their current budget and would be spread out over several years?

I think a big part of the disconnect here is that people think TPWD isn't doing what the breeders want already. So they think TPWD is "getting what they want" in the form of more visibility and funding for CWD research at the expense of breeders? TPWD would have been much harder on the breeders and would have cut off live transport if the breeders hadn't put pressure on them politically via threats to their funding. If you don't believe me, ask Ursusguy about it and he will tell you the same. There is certainly a lot of interest in TPWD for more research funding, because they are stuck letting CWD get spread around the state under their watch and can't do anything else about it. But that drop in the bucket of research money is nothing compared to the financial incentives breeders and their mouthpieces have to keep the gravy train rolling.

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Your telling me tpwd gets 592 million? They cant keep fairfield lake or the lease in east texas from the paper mill company? Or buy more land for hunting access? Or get more public land/state land available to hunters? Why are we funding if all we do is help maintain hiking trails for the hippies? 592 million?

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A huge chunk of that is used to fund law enforcement actions and maintain state parks. Pretty much any time you see guys on the border running around in boats, they are TPWD boats with game wardens driving.

montanagriz said:

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Jan 2024
"To date, Texas has tested 110,256 free-range deer for CWD. There were 91 positives. That is an apparent infection rate of 0.08%. That is 8 per 10,000 deer! In 2012, TPWD estimated there were 3,635,500 deer in the state. In 2022, they estimated 5,018,938 deer! That's a 1.4 million increase! And our problem is?"

Are these numbers correct? Im guessing above is whitetail only? Maybe below stat is including breeders and wild deer testing

Jan 2023
Since 2012, Texas has tested 288,709 deer for CWD prion proteins. The Total Positives (free-range, breeder, released) was 533, that's a Total positive rate of 0.185%! We would hardly call CWD in Texas a significant disease! It remains a rare disease; yet landowners are being beat up daily by unreasonable regulations!

To put this into perspective, review this publication on animal collisions back in 2007-2009 in Texas! https://saferroadsconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Monday-pm-SandC-7-Burton_Maria_127_V1_201427-Predicting-Animal-Vehicle-Collisions-for-Mitigation-in-Texas.pdf

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That is how surveillance testing often works in emergent diseases. CWD is VERY new to Texas beyond the 4 panhandle/west Texas Counties I mentioned before. You would not expect to see high percentage positives in a disease that may take 3-5 years to become detectable and has only spread to new areas recently.

Look at what Wisconsin saw for positive rates in 2000 versus what they see now. I would be surprised to see high rates of positives in Texas knowing what we know about how long it has been in the areas being most heavily tested. But now, there are counties in Wisconsin where a huge percentage of the mature bucks turned in for testing come back positive. So should we wait until we reach that point before we become concerned? Or should we be cautious about letting the obvious vector for spread in the state continue while we still know so little about the disease?

96ags said:

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harge57 said:

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The same old posters are here spewing their nonsense from one paid off biologist and and a 70s rock star.

Captive breeding operations and transportation is THE reason CWD is even discussed in this state. It is wholly responsible for the exponential spread of CWD in Texas.

Actual biologists recommendations have been curtailed for years by big money breeder politics. The public is waking up to that fact and TPWD is finally doing something about it. But if we want real change we need legislation banning the transport of live deer in this state. To think otherwise is obtuse and based in ignorance.

We are letting (probably too late) the self interests of a few ruin the native deer herd.

This nonsense about TPWD funding is ridiculous.

This all coming from someone who has and will eat CWD infected meat until someone actually gets infected from it.

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Irony at its finest.

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98% of Whitetail CWD cases in TX are from captive breeders.