Maroonedinaustin said:

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My daughter just moved into a one bedroom apartment living alone. I'm thinking a shotgun would be the best option to prevent live fire from injuring/killing someone in an adjacent apartment unit, plus it's hard to miss with a shotgun.

Is there a better option? What say you Outdoors?

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Before anybody goes and buys anything she has to come to acceptance that evil exists, there is a threat, and that her well being depends on her security posture.

It sounds like you see the need for a weapon etc but does she? IE if doesn't see a threat won't lock the door or if doesn't understand how quickly things can change or things aren't what they seem to be, she won't take avoidance/deterrence measures like locking the door or being prepared to make quick entry.

The armed combatives portion of the Sheep Dog Response Protector classes is eye opening. Most of the women only classes have real victims who are typically asked to share their story which leads others to committing to security.

Once she takes ownership, she can go and try different systems, and figure out what works best for her in various conditions.
My wife came home and made the following statement. "I understand now that security in our home is an ongoing team effort."

If she is interested in training like that hit me up privately and will discuss further and or she can discuss with my wife. Might even have access to discount.

ConfidentAg said:

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InfantryAg said:

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ConfidentAg said:

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InfantryAg said:

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ConfidentAg said:

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HumbleAg04 said:

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We used to have rules!

I agree on AR-9 with a good red dot. I've had numerous first time shooters instinctively be very accurate and efficient shooting mine.

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I don't know how a 9mm carbine isn't the immediate answer.

It's so obvious.

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9mm has the most over-penetration issues, especially in a carbine length, and pistol caliber rounds have the worst terminal ballistics; it's not even close in comparison.

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Ballistics doesn't even matter.

How many bullets can a girl put into the target is the only question for me.

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Ballistics doesn't matter? Really???

20 rounds in a non vital area, especially in a doped up person isn't effective, especially compared to one round in a switch CNS hit). Terminal Ballistics in a pump makes all the difference. It takes longer to bleed out of a 22 round vs a 9mm+ defensive round.

If what you were saying was true, the world would only use .22s.

Being able to accurately engage is important, but effective rounds are what wins a gunfight. And if the person has prepared beforehand, like I described in my previous post, rounds on target are gonna happen.

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I guess I value being able to reliably shoot the target than assuming the guy breaking in is high on PCP and body armored.

I guess you are not wrong but I'd still put my trust in a PCC.

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Reliability in being able to hit the target is a prerequisite. In my initial post I said the most important thing is mindset, leading to the will to train. Someone trained, using a .22 is better than someone untrained using a 12 gauge etc.

Terminal ballistics directly relates to those rounds on target being effective. It's illegal to hunt dear with a 9mm, because it wounds a lot more than it kills. The vast majority of pistol wounds in this country are survivable because of the proximity to emergency rooms. That's not the case with rifle rounds.

Accuracy is important because you want to hit either something in the CNS (preferable), or something that will bleed you out. The round needs to have enough penetration to reach these organs, but preferably not go all the way through the body. You also want the round to do as much damage to the body to shut it down the quickest. A lead round nose (target) pistol round through the heart may take some moments to end the threat. The same hit with a rifle round is going to obliterate the heart, leading to a much faster end to the threat.

Within calibers, each bullet (and bullet type) has different terminal ballistics. Shooting someone with ball ammo is not as effective as a modern defensive round, unless you make a CNS shot. Ball ammo, especially 9mm from a carbine, is much more likely to go through the target, unless you hit a bone. The same reason that round will go through drywall easier.

Terminal ballistics is also what determines over penetration in structures.

I'm not going to get into the shotgun for home defense debate. But I keep reading things like birdshot won't cause anything more than superficial wounds beyond 4-6 ft. That goes against my experience and I hope no one is using that when teaching their kids to shoot..

This guy did a test with no. 7 1/2 shot fired from a modified choke. At 15 ft. it penetrated 2" of ballistic gel. After going through a wall of sheetrock.

https://gundigest.com/gun-reviews/shotguns/birdshot-for-home-defense-too-much-too-little-or-just-right

ConfidentAg said:

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NRH ag 10 said:

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ConfidentAg said:

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HumbleAg04 said:

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We used to have rules!

I agree on AR-9 with a good red dot. I've had numerous first time shooters instinctively be very accurate and efficient shooting mine.

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I don't know how a 9mm carbine isn't the immediate answer.

It's so obvious.

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Why is it so obvious?

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Low recoil, easy to handle, easy to aim, cheap to practice.

You're going to have better aim with a PCC than a pistol any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

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So why not an AR in .223? Same light weight, handling characteristics, least expensive centerfire rifle round, potentially less overpenetration risk, and more effective shot for shot.

To be clear, I don't think a PCC is a bad choice by any means, but I also don't believe it has so many advantages that it's the obvious choice.

McInnis said:

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I'm not going to get into the shotgun for home defense debate. But I keep reading things like birdshot won't cause anything more than superficial wounds beyond 4-6 ft. That goes against my experience and I hope no one is using that when teaching their kids to shoot..

This guy did a test with no. 7 1/2 shot fired from a modified choke. At 15 ft. it penetrated 2" of ballistic gel. After going through a wall of sheetrock.

https://gundigest.com/gun-reviews/shotguns/birdshot-for-home-defense-too-much-too-little-or-just-right

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My friend lost a leg in a quail hunting accident. He was shot by his nephew when the covey rose around his feet. They had to amputate below the knee. Nearly killed him as they were very remote.

I'd focus on everything except a weapon first. How secure is the door frame? Could someone kick it in? How secure are the locks? Where are the security cameras? Does she know? Do they work? Does the building have security? Do you know their schedule? How is parking? How well lit are the parking lots? Are there angles/blind spots near her apartment door where someone could hire while she fumbles with her keys? Is she right by the stairs? Does the unit have it's own security system or do you need to add one?

If she gets a gun, would it be a daily carry or something that stays in the apartment?

Why not both?


With my own daughters I want them to have their EDC on the nightstand. Shotgun or AR is the backup/house gun.

I am looking into something from Byrna for my wife to have when I am not at home. Maybe an option?

powerbelly said:

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Two myths in one post. Impressive.

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I was getting worried I was on the wrong forum. Almost two pages before the first smartazz showed up.

Independence H-D said:

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Why not both?


With my own daughters I want them to have their EDC on the nightstand. Shotgun or AR is the backup/house gun.

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Good point. I discussed it with her and she likes the idea.

Quote:

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Before anybody goes and buys anything she has to come to acceptance that evil exists, there is a threat, and that her well being depends on her security posture.,

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She has no problem ending a scumbag's life. From her, "If I have to shoot, he won't be giving a statement."

Maroonedinaustin said:

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Quote:

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Before anybody goes and buys anything she has to come to acceptance that evil exists, there is a threat, and that her well being depends on her security posture.,

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deleted

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There's a lot of legal jeopardy in making statements like this. I would delete the post, even with the slim odds it would ever come back up. Another reason she needs to get expert advice.

For those asking if it will be her EDC gun, she's only 20 so the legality comes into play.

I understand the judged by 12 vs. carried by 6 but depending on the county and DA it may not be wise to get caught carrying before she turns 21.

Bear from Person of Interest.

Father with 2 grown daughters on their own checking in. I am security conscious, long time competitive shooter/hunter and EDC guy. Love classes, shoot houses and all that stuff.

Both daughters live in urban environments. I have spent hours with both going over their safety. We talk about where to park at the grocery store, which gas stations are lower risk, walk with your spray in your hand from car to apartment(for example), being aware of your surroundings, etc...

Once we get to apartment, first thing they have done is improve exterior doors with blocking mechanisms. They install a deadbolt on their bedroom door. They always have spray. Neither owns a firearm. I am comfortable with their judgement.

87IE said:

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For those asking if it will be her EDC gun, she's only 20 so the legality comes into play.

I understand the judged by 12 vs. carried by 6 but depending on the county and DA it may not be wise to get caught carrying before she turns 21.

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You can carry at 18 now. You just can't buy a handgun until 21.

CZ Scorpion.

OMG - total overkill. Lemme guess! You're law enforcement or a long-time gun nut. You guys always want to keep the bar soooo high. Flashlights, optics, multiple magazines. We're not talking about holding off 4-man bank robbery or chasing someone through a dark alley. Home defense is mainly about the about get a couple shots off to take down the threat, if not just scare off an intruder with the sound of racking a shotgun, and then getting away from the threat.

Get her a 410 shotgun and some practice with it. The long guns are reliable and easy to hit your target. Or bear spray.

mefoghorn said:

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OMG - total overkill. Lemme guess! You're law enforcement or a long-time gun nut. You guys always want to keep the bar soooo high. Flashlights, optics, multiple magazines. We're not talking about holding off 4-man bank robbery or chasing someone through a dark alley. Home defense is mainly about the about get a couple shots off to take down the threat, if not just scare off an intruder with the sound of racking a shotgun, and then getting away from the threat.

Get her a 410 shotgun and some practice with it. The long guns are reliable and easy to hit your target. Or bear spray.

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This is a great example of what I call the nutjob spectrum bias we all have. Everyone that does less than what we personally do is an unprepared idiot, and anyone who does more is a paranoid nutjob.

For you, the right side of the spectrum is a handgun with 15 rounds and a light. For a hippie in Berkley, you are the paranoid nutjob on the right side with your pump action .410.

Thats why gear arguments are so useless: most people are only trying to justify their own previously made decisions and purchases to themselves.

That also manifests in the made up ideal hypothetical scenario. Instead of accepting that we have no idea what a home invasion might look like if it happened (and there are plenty of easily found real world examples of exactly the multiple armed invaders scenario you cited as something you dont consider worth worrying about), we script how its going to happen to further reinforce previously made decisions.

But IMO, the worst part about self rationalizing previous gear decisions by arguing online is that sometimes people will argue against an item solely because they do not currently use it, not because they have any experience actually using something (for example, an offhand or weapon mounted light for positive ID). Yet despite that lack of experience using one in low light classes or force on force training, some people remain happy to pontificate how worthless they are based solely on their own personal decision to not use one.

Yep. This thread is too many pages too long and seemingly reoccurs every quarter.

BlueSmoke said:

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I'd focus on everything except a weapon first. How secure is the door frame? Could someone kick it in? How secure are the locks? Where are the security cameras? Does she know? Do they work? Does the building have security? Do you know their schedule? How is parking? How well lit are the parking lots? Are there angles/blind spots near her apartment door where someone could hire while she fumbles with her keys? Is she right by the stairs? Does the unit have it's own security system or do you need to add one?

If she gets a gun, would it be a daily carry or something that stays in the apartment?

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Great points.

I'd step back even further in the leasing/apartment selection process.
Evaluating the neighborhood.
Look at the crime records for that location.
I suspect there's a decent correlation between rent prices and crime. IMO when it comes to apartments a lot of the value from paying a higher rent comes from getting a higher class of neighbor. Not perfect, but as someone that's had 9 apartments over ~20 years, I'm working for more experience than most on the topic.

Want to throw in another variable.

Highly recommend some sort of self defense classes. I trained in Krav Maga for years and love the fact that it teaches situational awareness along with how to end an encounter as quickly and effectively as possible.