Hello all,

I have been having a lot of problems trying to site in an old model 700 that I inherited from my grandfather. It's a 40+ year old .308 with a single power Weaver scope. Both scope and gun appear to be in good condition. The glass is clear and i actually prefer the scope to my modern vortex on my other rifle.
The problem is, I can't keep 5 rounds on a pie plate at 60 yards, shooting from a bench. I would like to bring the rifle out of retirement this season and, if possible, keep it in the same condition that it was in when my grandfather killed his last deer with it.
My question is: Would it be more likely to be a problem with the scope or the rifle itself? If it's the former, I would be inclined to leave it as is and keep it as a family heirloom. If it's an issue with the rifle that would require a gunsmith, I wouldn't mind spending some money on it so long as is appearance is not noticeably different when it's all said and done.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

sounds like scope , but who knows. check all the screws on rings bases etc. maybe shoot the gun without the scope on it and see where it shoots. I would start at 25 yds and see if it groups at all
barrel could be shot out , good luck

Attach a different scope (that is known to be accurate) and see if you get different results. That way, you can either rule out the scope or you've found your problem.

Sounds like scope or mounts, where are you located I'm sure there are several good ags that could offer to help ya rule a few things out!

I would first give the rifle (barrel) a good cleaning with both carbon and copper cleaners. Then determine barrel twist rate and make sure you have the right ammo/bullet for that twist rate. Also check to make sure the crown in still clean without any wear or nicks. Then check the action screw tension, scope base and ring fit, and see if the barrel has a pressure point at the end of the forestock. The older Rems usually did. If not, you might try adding the slightest bit of tension there (google it). If still not shooting as expected, try changing scope and ammo.

Scope/Rings are most likely. Also check stock / action screws as well.

I have my grandfather's old Winchester 30-06 and reluctantly changed out the glass from the original Redfield scope which confirmed to be a problem.

Not sure of your location, but Alan out at Pigeon Road Gun Range just north of Stephenville is the best "gun guy" I have ever seen.

He has forgotten more about guns than most on here have ever known. That is cliche, but it is true!

It has been a few years, but he has restored both a 1960's rifle and a 1950's shotgun for me and they still look like the original gun, but they look like they just came out of the box.

Wow. That's a crap ton of work just to find out the scope and/or mount is bad or not installed well.

No, that is a crap ton of work to make sure the rifle shoots as best as possible. I agree with Townsend Whelen, who said only accurate rifles are interesting.

I inherited a pre-64 winnie that had a fixed x4 scope on it. First this I did was a deep cleaning, then had a modern scope mounted. It's still good for a cloverleaf at 100yds. Check the glass first and get something better mounted and don't skimp on the rings.

Also try different ammo choices. Mine absolutely loves Winchester Super-X, so that is all I use.

Deep cleaning first. Use the foaming bore cleaner and really take your time. Make sure you get all copper and powder residue out. I bought a used 270 made in 1994 that needed 250 patches and most of my bottle of Montana Extreme, but once clean it went from 2.5" groups to 1.25" (but usually less).

Second, check scope mounts and bases. Take it apart and make sure they are tight and torqued right.

Third, check muzzle crown for nicks.

4th check scope.

I'd lay down alotta money that this is simply scope/ring issue.

There are still places that make fixed X scopes. S&B Klassic fixed 6 and fixed 10 come to mind. Classic lines for a classic rifle.

Tons of ring options. I'd probably go Talley.

Another fixed X option:

https://cameralandny.com/shop/leupold-fx-3-6x42mm-wide-duplex-66815/c8799e10-ab23-0132-5fad-00163e9110c0?variation=1116242

Change ammo. Try several brands.

We talking pie plate at 60 yards, not groups at 150.

The scope and or mounting system has taken a dump. New optics needed here before chasing any other rabbits.

Imo.

Yeah that's like 10moa, if the scope isn't obviously rattling around on top of the rifle then the scope is bad. Good point about col whelen. It's possible the gun had been bored out to whelen and he's shooting 30-06 out of it. That might shoot 10moa
Edit: sorry i thought it was an 06, maybe it's been bored to 338 fed?

If it does turn out to be the scope, there's a couple companies that offer rebuild services.

https://www.vintagegunscopes.com/press-releases/2019/7/31/weaver-repair-services-offered-at-vintage-gun-scopes

I would take it out of the stock, remove the scope and rings.

Give everything a good cleaning and torque everything properly.

personally, I would add a known scope to verify the gun, but you can try the old one first.

Sorry to be rude, but lot of moronic advice in this thread. What some of y'all are suggesting is basically akin to this:

My truck doesn't start one morning. So trying to address that I flush the coolant system, change the oil, gap my spark plugs, clean the MAF, bleed my brakes, THEN jump the battery and it runs.

IT. IS. SOMETHING. TO. DO. WITH. THE. OPTIC. SYSTEM.

I'm glad someone said it.

Tikka- I sort of figured he just hadn't fired it in a 10 shot string to determine the cone of accuracy!

Well played

Yep, if it's producing shotgun groups at short range, it ain't the rifle it's the optic and/or the mounts.

Before you spend a bunch of money on it, give the barrel a really good cleaning. My brother had a similar problem. A really good cleaning fixed his problem.

I've never had a rifle not group unless it was optics. It's optics. Those old scopes are ok but they do fail. I have several weavers that eventually simply won't adjust.

It's the optic. Clean the gun if you want but it's not going to be the issue.

Change the scope and make sure your rings are mounted and torqued properly. There is no comparison between a Weaver, Redfield from 40 years ago and the cheapest Leupold they offer now. Swap it out.

I even have one of those old scopes that has a cross hair with a BEND in it. No *****

I would clean the entire gun, tighten down the scope, and buy older designed ammo like some 150 gr Core Lokts.

I have seen tightening down a few screws in the cope permanently fix issues like this. Start there.

I bet it tightens up a lot.

BrazosDog02 said:

---

I've never had a rifle not group unless it was optics. It's optics. Those old scopes are ok but they do fail. I have several weavers that eventually simply won't adjust.

It's the optic. Clean the gun if you want but it's not going to be the issue.

Change the scope and make sure your rings are mounted and torqued properly. There is no comparison between a Weaver, Redfield from 40 years ago and the cheapest Leupold they offer now. Swap it out.

---

I normally agree with this but I have had several guns brought to me recently that were extremely dirty and grouped again after cleaning. One gun took 8 hours and 2 brass brushes to clean.

Always try optic first but I have found more than half the time it is the mounting of the optic not the optic its self.

Side note: dad was shooting a redfield from the 70s I had a 2000 vx-2. We were hunting and I told him what was under the feeder at sunset. He took my gun and looked. He bought the same scope the next day.

Sounds like it's the rifle. I'll be happy to take it off your hands and add it to my 700 collection…

meggy09 said:

---

Sorry to be rude, but lot of moronic advice in this thread. What some of y'all are suggesting is basically akin to this:

My truck doesn't start one morning. So trying to address that I flush the coolant system, change the oil, gap my spark plugs, clean the MAF, bleed my brakes, THEN jump the battery and it runs.

IT. IS. SOMETHING. TO. DO. WITH. THE. OPTIC. SYSTEM.

---

No. That is a terrible analogy.

I agree that it is probably the scope but cleaning the bore and tightening action screws are quick, simple and a normal part of maintenance.

Serious question….if a rifle is THAT dirty, it seems that would be pretty obvious with a visual inspection down the bore, no?

I know dirty bores can affect consistency but I cannot fathom a bore requiring hours of cleaning that couldn't be easily seen by looking down the bore.

Then I got to thinking that if that's the case then wouldn't that permanently mess up the barrel and rifling? Would corrosion be a thing? Kind of a rabbit hole but now I'm curious.

BrazosDog02 said:

---

Serious question….if a rifle is THAT dirty, it seems that would be pretty obvious with a visual inspection down the bore, no?

I know dirty bores can affect consistency but I cannot fathom a bore requiring hours of cleaning that couldn't be easily seen by looking down the bore.

Then I got to thinking that if that's the case then wouldn't that permanently mess up the barrel and rifling? Would corrosion be a thing? Kind of a rabbit hole but now I'm curious.

---

That is a long conversation with what ifs. IMO bores should stay clean. I do not believe in the fouling shot. I my limited experience there is normally corrosion near the throat but I have not had one that would not shoot MOA after cleaning. I think the crown is most important. (Like a choke on a shotgun.) I am talking hunting at 200 yards.

YMMV and there is a lot of debate but without a long conversation, I believe accuracy starts drop after the first shot. Some guns take 1000+ to notice.

This is better discussion over a beer.

TLDR: Guy said it 3030 could not group in a pie plate. I cleaned it for 8 hours. Gun shoots sub MOA.

meggy09 said:

---

Sorry to be rude, but lot of moronic advice in this thread. What some of y'all are suggesting is basically akin to this:

My truck doesn't start one morning. So trying to address that I flush the coolant system, change the oil, gap my spark plugs, clean the MAF, bleed my brakes, THEN jump the battery and it runs.

IT. IS. SOMETHING. TO. DO. WITH. THE. OPTIC. SYSTEM.

---

The gross problem may likely be with the scope, and I would certainly consider that as well as its mounts. However, if I am going to assess the accuracy potential of an old rifle that I know nothing about, even whether it has ever been cleaned, this moron is going to give it a thorough cleaning first. Will also examine the crown, as many folks have been known to carry a rifle in a vehicle muzzle down sitting on the floor board. Doing this, as well as cleaning from the muzzle for years and years can have a detrimental effect on the crown that can affect accuracy. Also, if I am considering shooting longer heavier bullets, especially some of the mono's, this moron will want to know the twist rate of the barrel. These older 308s most likely have a 1:12 twist rate (as opposed to the newer 1:10), which will often not stabilize the heavier mono bullets -- causing accuracy issues. Also, on the light sporter contour barrels, Remington manufactured these to have a light pressure point at the end of the forestock. This moron would want to know whether there is or is not a pressure point still with this setup and whether the action screws are tight, but not overly tight. All of these things can affect the accuracy potential of a rifle even though some may or may not cause a 10 MOA or greater shot string. Still, one can not fully access the potential accuracy of an older rifle unless these issues are considered, and there are even more that I won't go into (throat erosion, bedding/action binding, etc.). So yeah, this moron is not working on a truck but would certainly go thru these steps if I wanted to ascertain the true accuracy potential of a rifle that I knew nothing about.

You, sir, are a moron for doing all of that.


I kid I kid. That's the best advice possible.

Sure, by all means, clean the bore well and check and properly torque action screws. No question, you should do this. However, just keep in mind that those are not likely to be the root cause of pie-plate sized "groups" at short range. Dirty bores and loose action screws typically change a 1.25 MOA rifle to a 2.5 MOA rifle, something along that magnitude. Maybe excessive bore fouling or loose screws could be contributing factors, but If the rifle is shooting as poorly as described, the scope/mounts system is almost certainly the culprit.