8.6 Blackout via 12" AR-10 (Faxon barrel), both suppressed and unsuppressed, with 285gr fragmenting rounds, both by Gorilla. This was the recommended configuration by both Gorilla and their partnership with Q.

Groupings were initially 4-6 MOA and they (I sent the rifle back to them) believe they can bring them down to 1.5 or 2MOA after some changes in the loads. I'm in the belief that this still isn't "good enough" for a rig of this expense (I'm used to 1/3 MOA on my Grendel).

Improvements can be made going to a 18" and bolt action, and of course shooting supers, but this isn't what I had believed the 8.6 was designed for.

I understand that the 8.6 still has a ways to go for SAAMI and general acceptance and knew this going into trying things out. I think the round shows promise but honestly, if one cannot expect better than 2 MOA then I'm not not quite as interested anymore. Granted, it is for hog hunting but I was initially excited to find a destructive round that worked well for quiet follow up shots on the run - and prefer a reasonable amount of precision since the hogs would be running.

Tried any ammo other than Gorilla? Does anyone else make ammo for 8.6?

I'm not up to speed on it.

Have you tried anything from Discreet Ballistics?

For me, depends on what you plan to use it for. If I was wanting to do mostly head shots, Id be looking for 1-1.5" at your max intended range. Body shots, 2.5-3" at your intended range. Any more than that and you start increasing the chances of goofs when you stack human error on top of the variable of the gun.

First thing Id do would be to find something still subsonic but shorter. The all copper/ hollow cavity rounds live on the edge of inaccuracy. Calculator might say its stable but real world doesnt always agree.

"Only accurate rifles are interesting"

Thanks. What attracted me to the 8.6 was that it supposedly does a ton of destruction with subsonic loads. A good candidate for follow up shots on hogs, where I'm doing good to hit the largest body of mass that's running 20mph.

My Grendel does great for long distance, first shot. But I have to admit, once they are on the run, my chances of taking out more than my first pig drop dramatically as the seconds go by. So the extra destructive energy from the fast spin of the 8.6 blackout with a heavy grain sure does help when doing body shots on the run. Maybe I'm amiss at this entire setup and should go back to a proven cartridge. I enjoy the benefits of subsonic so this seemed to hold promise.

Maybe a couple MOA at 200 yards isn't going to matter much but I sure could use 3 or more inches of better precision. I'll take whatever help I can get!

I haven't tried any other ammo. I figured I'd give Gorilla their best chance at making things right. I just don't know if I should be pushing 1MOA or let them convince me that 2 or 3 MOA @100 is "good enough" for a $3k rig.

A) I don't know anything about the caliber

B) 2 MOA was the minimum, a long time ago, for a production gun.

My lever action 45-70 should do that, quite easily.

Was it built for that bullet? Have you tried other ones?

It seems like something really weird would have to be going on.

Did you check the twist rate? Maybe the builder used the wrong one?

Good questions. The 8.6 blackout is a new cartridge using a .338 LM bullet in 6.5 CM brass. They (Q) have optimized for a 12" barrel and subsonic loads by increasing the twist to a 1:3 rate. Their goal is leveraging the twist energy down range and the results have been impressive in destruction. To demonstrate the potential, Kevin Brittingham (the brain behind it, regardless of what people think of him), took down an impressive cape buffalo with a 12" subsonic load.

The target audience seems to be hog hunters.

Since the rifle and ammo manufacturer are one in the same (Gorilla), I was hoping they'd have this all worked out but I was only able to get 4-6 MOA and have sent it back and it appears that their target is 1.5 to 2 MOA at 100. That seems quite high for me. If this is what is "acceptable", then I need to rethink my desire for this. As mentioned earlier, I'm used to sub MOA on just about everything and no matter how effective and quiet a bullet might be, I'm not sure I'm willing to give up this much precision for it.

mhnatt said:

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it appears that their target is 1.5 to 2 MOA at 100. That seems quite high for me. If this is what is "acceptable", then I need to rethink my desire for this. As mentioned earlier, I'm used to sub MOA on just about everything and no matter how effective and quiet a bullet might be, I'm not sure I'm willing to give up this much precision for it.

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What are people getting out of quality build 300 blackout with subs? In my limited dealings with subsonic 357, 450BM, and 454 casull, 1.5-2" might be all you can hope for. Anything past 100 yards, drop is going to be a larger concern anyway.

CS78 said:

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mhnatt said:

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it appears that their target is 1.5 to 2 MOA at 100. That seems quite high for me. If this is what is "acceptable", then I need to rethink my desire for this. As mentioned earlier, I'm used to sub MOA on just about everything and no matter how effective and quiet a bullet might be, I'm not sure I'm willing to give up this much precision for it.

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What are people getting out of quality build 300 blackout with subs? In my limited dealings with subsonic 357, 450BM, and 454 casull, 1.5-2" might be all you can hope for. Anything past 100 yards, drop is going to be a larger concern anyway.

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I'm not the expert but my 450BM (and it is a high quality Tromix) running Hornady SubX isn't anything to brag about either (about 2+MOA). I know the little .22LR doesn't better at subsonic but that's because the tiny bullet is unstable after breaking the sound barrier. That's why I'm wondering if there's a general rule of thumb that subsonic is not only bad on delivering energy, but also precision.

You realistically aren't lobbing anything subsonic past 100 yards so 1.5 to 2 MOA is 1.5 to 2" at 100 yards so that is perfectly fine.

What are you hoping to accomplish?

What can you tell us about
Your range set up? Bipod, rear bag?
Trigger / Trigger Pull?
Buffer?
Gas block adjustable? Where are your spent cases landing relative to the muzzle (12 O clock)?

Describe your 3 shot sequence: Load 3 into the mag and shoot? Load one at a time into the mag and shoot with the bolt locking back with each shot?

HumbleAg04 said:

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You realistically aren't lobbing anything subsonic past 100 yards so 1.5 to 2 MOA is 1.5 to 2" at 100 yards so that is perfectly fine.

What are you hoping to accomplish?

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Exactly. "Lobbing" is the correct term.

Subsonic, probably looking at 50-100 yards (150 absolute max) for ethical reliable shots. To zero at 100, you're 3.5 inches high at 50 yards anyway, and already a full foot low at 150 and almost 3 foot low at 200. It mirrors the trajectory of 300 BLK while holding more energy, but still not much. Best used for a stationary targets, as a dynamic distance is going to **** your holds on a running target that isn't exactly perpendicular.

For hogs, unless they don't run when the first one drops, it actually makes for a more difficult follow up shot and the shooter will be more of an issue than the precision of the gun.

Well yeah, subsonics are never going to be as accurate as supersonics, no matter how much they try to dial up that twist rate. Expecting sub-MOA precision from a subsonic gun that isn't going to be shooting long distances isn't really necessary or realistic.

My .300 BLK is about 1.5 MOA with subs. That's the sacrifice you make for the sound reduction.

Am I the only one who thinks 2 MOA out of a 12" gun is pretty dang good ?

The OB board comes through! Thanks for the insights. Gorilla still is trying to get this down from 4-6MOA (and was even worse) and has admitted they are working out kinks in the load to get it hopefully down to 2 if not 1.5. I wasn't sure if that was respectable or not but apparently it is. Just a few days ago they had it around 2 or 3.

FYI, the first image is some initial testing of the 8.6 blk and the second is me shooting from the same place with my 6.5CM. Apples to oranges but it illustrates that it isn't the shooter nor conditions:

So I was mostly function testing a different gun today but OP asked the question and I thought I'd put up a target. Standard disclaimer that I'm not a benchrest shooter but thought it was still a decent sampling of the difference ammo makes even with a mediocre precision shooter.



This is 4 types of subsonic 300 blackout, all shot through a 1 in 5 twist 8" mini fix at 100 yards with a 1-8 Trijicon LPVO off a bag.

Red circles are Discrete Ballistics 190gr. I felt myself pull a shot in the first two groups (like I said, not a bench rest aficionado) and wanted to see what the ammo did if the idiot behind the trigger wasnt screwing up. Top and center were obviously the bad shots ruining a group, group on the right was my final attempt that I didnt influence.

Green is Sig 220gr, Yellow is Hornady 208gr, and Blue is Remington 220.

190gr group was ~ 1.25 inch, sig 220 was ~ 1.75 inch, 208gr was 1.25-1.5 and Remington 220 was barely under 3"

You're such a tease, Bender. Show us the entire weapon!

I posted a thread about it. Fun felonies with bolt guns or something like that.

Dont want to hijack ops thread, just wanted to share some subsonic data

5 shots, sub sonic 22lr at 100 yards.


May not be the best choice for hogs.

Minute Of Hog is acceptable. That was my viewpoint going into 300, but im still a greenhorn. Hornady SubX are most consistent for me so far. I see a big variation in consistency in other loads ive tried.

TX_COWDOC said:

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You're such a tease, Bender. Show us the entire weapon!

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I was hoping for better from the .338 subsonic since energy = MxV squared.
Try some hand loading using standard bullets, I'm sure there are recipes for it. Head shots only need 2 moa and you can surely do better. Solid bullets work best in CNS shots like brain shots.
Work up a ladder for your rifle and have fun.
Do get a chronograph and see which load your rifle consistently shoots so you can repeat accurately as close to 1125 fps speed of sound as possible.

I've played around a lot with subsonic loads over past 15 years.
My most accurate is an integral silenced FN Patrol Bolt .308 from John's Guns shooting Sierra Matchking 168g subsonic hand loads. It's equivalent to a .38 special so I keep it to headshots under 75 yards. It will easily do 1 moa.
I killed a lot of hogs with it using a thermal scope at night.

A Ruger 77/44 integral silenced bolt gun usually will do 1.5 moa at 75 yards with .44 special gold dots. I quit hand loading for it the gold dots outperformed my loads.

.300 blackout subsonic does best in a Thompson Encore SBR with MGM barrel. It will do 1 MOA with some cast bullet handloads I have a Remington bolt rifle that is a 1.5 with .300 subs.

My AR15 in .300 and a Tromix .458 are 2-3" subsonic guns at 100 yards. Full power loads they are all 1".

I have a .277 Wolverine AR I built that I haven't finalized a load for it.

My go to rifle is a .45 acp CMMG Banshee AR. It is a cloverleaf at 50 to 75 yards shooting 230g gold dots.
Every body that shoots it is amazed , I keep an Aimpoint H1 red dot on it.
Very accurate, compact and light. It's killed a lot of small hogs with the gold dots.

All my .22 subsonic rifles are very accurate at 50 yards.
They're fun to shoot at pests like squirrels and starlings.

What's your Tromix 458 Socom load / recipe?
I had to put a SBR 458 Socom project on hold a long time ago and this thread has me eager to dust it off.

mhnatt said:

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TX_COWDOC said:

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You're such a tease, Bender. Show us the entire weapon!

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If yall insist….

This is 50 yards w my 300 BLK. I assumed that my 8" barrel didn't have enough length or fast enough twist (1/7) to stabilize the subsonic bullet. Those are also the only subs I have tried, so something else may work better.