Texans are going to have to get in shape, start working out, quit eating so many cheeseburgers, and spend more time studying tracks and natural movement patterns on foot and a lot less time riding the side by side out to dump corn and protein in a feeder and sitting in a blind watching football on their cell phones if they want to have viable deer hunting in a couple of decades.

But, on the bright side, before that can possibly work, there needs to be a "great cull" for a few years to drop general population numbers by a large fraction, so that might be cool.

MouthBQ98 said:

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Texans are going to have to get in shape, start working out, quit eating so many cheeseburgers, and spend more time studying tracks and natural movement patterns on foot and a lot less time riding the side by side out to dump corn and protein in a feeder and sitting in a blind watching football on their cell phones if they want to have viable deer hunting in a couple of decades.

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Tough to do with the lack of public land in this state.

There is a reason Texans hunt the way they do.

Yep? They pretty much ranch the deer as undomesticated livestock in order to guarantee successful hunts to justify the huge investment in time and money.

It's a really strange way to get $250/lb or $500/lb venison when you think about it, but I understand the culture around it. That will have to change with widespread CWD unless you collectively want to risk having to throw it all away.

Bad deal all around

Are you implying that Colorado hunters wouldn't sit over a feeder if they had the chance?

This is primarily about maximizing your shot opportunities given the legal means of harvesting an animal. If I have 20 "hunts" (AM/PM) a year, why wouldn't I choose the method with the highest % likelihood of me harvesting a deer?

I'm all for a massive white tail depopulation in this state.
They've become almost like pigeons in some suburbs of major cities. Hell, there are more deer in the US now than there were in the same geographical area when the Mayflower arrived.

I don't want to bring up the whole "is it hunting or trapping with a pre-sighted rifle for the trap" debate.

I'd agree if the point is to collect as many deer as you are legally allowed, baiting them in does that most efficiently. No doubt about it. That removes most need for fieldcraft and the experience of trying to set up a hunt based off of natural deer behaviors. Some purists would argue that experience is a valuable part of the process, but it certainly puts less on the wall and in the freezer.

I'm simply staying the feeding/baiting creates physical high density gathering points where CWD spreads rapidly in a local population, so it may have to be done away with to save the population and sport long term, and expectations of success may have to be adjusted accordingly. It may become much more about the experience and knowledge development than the year long preparation and setup for each season.

With the huge money and time investments, hunters aren't going to want to hear this bad news and they will resist the changes that might be needed, and understandably so. Nobody likes to have their traditions and culture disrupted and their investment impaired.

And yes, eliminating baiting to preserve the species and the sport will make many properties far less valuable for hunting because there are few natural draws.

It is coming, most likely, unless it can be proved this prion is manageable some other way and is no threat to humans or livestock. Be prepared.

MouthBQ98 said:

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Keep in mind: the prions are environmentally durable and contact with them becomes a matter of statistical probability. Let's say the average half life duration is 5 years, constant rate of decay. After 20 years only about 6% of the prions are left if there is no environmental replenishment. After 40 years, only 0.4%

The odds of transmission require animals to gather and engage in activities that spread the prion, and prion generation requires infected animals to create and excrete new prions.

The ONLY solution is to radically reduce the population density of the host species for an extended period until the environmental density is statistically unable to sustain the prion in the environment at sufficient statistical concentration to spread it effectively.

I know all of you who have built your fall life culture around leases and deer hunting don't want I hear this, but we pretty much need a massive population thinning for several years
Until densities are very low, then to keep it that way for possibly 2-3 decades.

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What we need is to stop carting deer from infected breeder properties to other parts of the state. Nearly 100% of the recent spread of CWD in Texas has happened on breeder release sites or at breeders receiving deer from other breeders. I think outside of the panhandle and west texas, there are only 2-3 positives that are in free ranging deer and are not related to any breeder or release site. The 100% guaranteed way to stop nearly all of the spread in Texas is to stop transporting live deer between properties.

As I have stated in other post, over the last 5 years I have attended several CWD workshops, seminars, conferences etc. many states that have never allowed " baiting" have CWD. Many states that have banned baiting since CWD still have it spreading.
I will say that at those events many of the biologist feel that the " no baiting " is more agenda driven by people who feel it is unethical to bait and anti hunting folks making that policy than the actual advantage of not doing it.
It will sure change the dynamics of hunting in Texas. Especially on smaller acreages.
Funny thing is, on our ranch, we seldom harvest our older larger bucks around a feeder anyway....just mainly youngsters, small bucks and does.
It will also negate any enhancement of body and antler quality from supplemental feeding....
It will be interesting to see what it would do to the current population densities/dynamics of the current deer herds in Texas. At the current high deer/acreage ratios prevalent in many parts of the state, raising that density in an accelerated manner by not harvesting the same number may cause a very high chance of overpopulation which would actually increase the spread of CWD and other serious diseases that could also decimate the entire herd and destroy habitat from overgrazing etc.
Other factors, such as predator populations would to have to considered as well. Overpopulation would need more predators to help keep it in check so the culture of killing every bobcat, mountain lion, coyote seen would need to studied as well.
Lots of dynamics.... states that have done it are experiencing those challenges now and having to make bag limit changes, season changes etc to effectively manage their populations.
Things would change for sure.... from financial effects on leases to population dynamics of the deer herd and predator populations... we will have our work cut out for us..... imho.... and that's all it is, my opinion... and I know I'm too dumb to even think I would have the answers.

ags 92 has hit the proverbial nail on the head. Smartest guy on here.

Never should been allowed to raise them in pens and move em around.

Hind sight is always 20-20.

ttha_aggie_09 said:

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Are you implying that Colorado hunters wouldn't sit over a feeder if they had the chance?

This is primarily about maximizing your shot opportunities given the legal means of harvesting an animal. If I have 20 "hunts" (AM/PM) a year, why wouldn't I choose the method with the highest % likelihood of me harvesting a deer?

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That is some BS right there!

That is the beauty of and THE very reason I go to Colorado to hunt.......NO feeders!

I haven't bought a TX hunting license in almost a decade. I hunted nearly 20 years over feeders before I started my Western hunts. I have no real urge to go sit over a feeder anymore. It's weird!

Now that CWD has been trailered into my area (via a very sorry MFing breeder and an inept tpwd) I'm not sure that I will ever take another deer down here. The future of "safe" deer populations on my place looks pretty grim!

F breeders
F tpwd

duddleysdraw88 said:

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ttha_aggie_09 said:

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Are you implying that Colorado hunters wouldn't sit over a feeder if they had the chance?

This is primarily about maximizing your shot opportunities given the legal means of harvesting an animal. If I have 20 "hunts" (AM/PM) a year, why wouldn't I choose the method with the highest % likelihood of me harvesting a deer?

---

That is some BS right there!

That is the beauty of and THE very reason I go to Colorado to hunt.......NO feeders!

I haven't bought a TX hunting license in almost a decade. I hunted nearly 20 years over feeders before I started my Western hunts. I have no real urge to go sit over a feeder anymore. It's weird!

Now that CWD has been trailered into my area (via a very sorry MFing breeder and an inept tpwd) I'm not sure that I will ever take another deer down here. The future of "safe" deer populations on my place looks pretty grim!

F breeders
F tpwd

---

On the flip side I don't have a huge interest in "the hunt" or trophy bucks.

My interest in Texas style hunting is spending days at a time in the middle of no where with family. The excitement of a nice kill and meat in the fridge is just a bonus.

It sucks that this may ruin how many of us hunt and may even price people out of the hobby all together.

1) I was referring to hunting in Texas baited vs not baited, given the legality of it

2) I've gone on quite a few western hunts not so this is not a personal vendetta against them or that style of hunting - I love going out there

3) If baiting were legal in CO and it took you 3 years to draw your bull tag, you honestly don't think people would try it?

Not making an argument to bait out west just not really a good argument for them because they can't do it. Doesn't mean they wouldn't if they had the means.

Valid points and I don't disagree with the potential for major changes at some point in the future. I hope that's wrong but it certainly seems plausible.

duddleysdraw88 said:

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ttha_aggie_09 said:

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Are you implying that Colorado hunters wouldn't sit over a feeder if they had the chance?

This is primarily about maximizing your shot opportunities given the legal means of harvesting an animal. If I have 20 "hunts" (AM/PM) a year, why wouldn't I choose the method with the highest % likelihood of me harvesting a deer?

---

That is some BS right there!

That is the beauty of and THE very reason I go to Colorado to hunt.......NO feeders!

I haven't bought a TX hunting license in almost a decade. I hunted nearly 20 years over feeders before I started my Western hunts. I have no real urge to go sit over a feeder anymore. It's weird!

Now that CWD has been trailered into my area (via a very sorry MFing breeder and an inept tpwd) I'm not sure that I will ever take another deer down here. The future of "safe" deer populations on my place looks pretty grim!

F breeders
F tpwd

---

OK - YOU won't, but don't act like a whole mess of people in states that don't have feeders wouldn't jump on the opportunity if it were given.

You do know that Colorado has CWD, right?

There are pros and cons to all different styles of hunting. I don't get the "my way is far superior to yours and therefore I'm better than you!" mentality. I've western hunted, blind hunted, stalk hunted, Texas safari style hunted...all are great depending on the situation.

Also - for everybody that rags on Texas style hunting because of feeders and blinds - you do know that you don't have to use feeders, right? You don't have to sit in a blind. No laws says that is the way it's done here exclusively - you do know this, right?

For around 18 years my dad and some old friends hunted in Colorado in the Steamboat Springs/Routt National Forest/Elk River National Forest. We quit going about 10 years ago due to the number of hunters, poaching, and low quality of animals.
The only way to have a good hunting experience is to be able and hunt on private ranches in Colorado that are well managed.... and were out of our financial ability.
We saved up our bucks and bought a hunt and had a fairly good hunt. However we were required to go with a guide.....The outfitter scouted with aircraft as the law governed, used game cameras, and they planted food plots and put out alfalfa hay bails in the meadows.
It was nothing like we used to hunt up there.
My dad died the next year and I quit going.

some thoughts from Virginia.

moved here from California a couple decades ago, grew up in Texas, hunted/hunt in Texas over feeders most years, had a lease near Throckmorten for a while we hunted over feeders until a few years ago.

even though I grew up hunting, I really only learned to hunt in Virginia. no feeders here whatsoever. a good bit of public land. I've got access to private and public land here, hunt both bow and rifle.

I average a deer every other year here - the time commitment to scout, place tree stands or identify where to climb, etc, is significant. quiet/wind sensitivity, etc., all critical here. but it is massively rewarding when you are successful. you really earn it compared to hunting over a feeder. but it is not easy.

its not clear to me if that approach would work in Texas, especially outside of east Texas piney woods. here the forests are full of big hardwoods and pines you can climb or place a stand - usually at least 15-20 feet up, out of scent range etc.

lower growth tree cover in most of Texas would make that tough. I think your hunting skills in Texas would need to be very very well developed (silence, scent/wind avoidance, scouting/location) absent baiting. I suspect a LOT of hunters would give up the sport in Texas.

here's the problem. in Virginia the deer population continues to explode. the state now has early rifle season in a lot of counties (September) for antler-less deer (which in my opinion has ruined bow season in those counties by driving deer nocturnal long before the rut), and late antler-less seasons into March. Rifle season goes from mid-Nov into January, but populations continue to explode and CWD is rapidly expanding from west of the blue ridge into the Piedmont and heading east, in spite of no feeders, no natural scents (urines etc).

Coyote populations are exploding and now are common in suburban neighborhoods but their effect on deer population is minimal.

I don't know what stops CWD, but if Virginia is any guide, baiting restrictions aren't preventing it from spreading.

Very well said!

Another thing that is often overlooked about hunting here is how we're afforded MANY shot opportunities and how that changes you as a hunter. Specifically, you get better at harvesting animals ethically and have more experience tracking and recovering animals.

Good friend of mine moved to CO and was shocked how inexperienced some of the guys he went out to help recover animals were. When you think about it, you might kill one animal every couple of year in certain states vs killing several (deer and hogs) down here. It sort of spoils you but affords you with more practice and experience that other hunters don't have.

I'm not trying to derail this anymore and sorry for contributing to that…

CWD sucks, it's a problem we're stuck with and I hope we can all figure out a way to stop it and/or develop a cure before things get really bad.

Good Post. Missouri experiencing the exact same thing.

$240 Worth of Pudding said:

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I'm all for a massive white tail depopulation in this state.
They've become almost like pigeons in some suburbs of major cities. Hell, there are more deer in the US now than there were in the same geographical area when the Mayflower arrived.

---

There were more bears, elk, and bison then

Good points all.
I have confidence that a solution will be found and CWD will be no different long term than the other deer and livestock diseases have been. We have smart folks and great technology on our side to defeat it.
Action needs to be taken as the scientific proof dictates it.
Mother Nature is always resilient.

The University of Minnesota has developed a rapid test to determine if meat is tainted with CWD prions. Hopefully this gets widespread distribution soon because I am not completely comfortable eating venison and feeding it to my family with the current spread, with my lease being in the newly established zone. I have been hunting Gillespie County for the last 15+ seasons and we love harvesting/processing/eating venison. We usually take 2 or or 3 deer every year. We haven't pulled the trigger yet this season.

www.deeranddeerhunting.com/content/blogs/dan-schmidt-deer-blog-whitetail-wisdom/new-test-can-determine-if-cwd-is-present-in-deer-meat

Gunny456 said:

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Good points all.
I have confidence that a solution will be found and CWD will be no different long term than the other deer and livestock diseases have been. We have smart folks and great technology on our side to defeat it.
Action needs to be taken as the scientific proof dictates it.
Mother Nature is always resilient.

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At some point people are going to start dumping research $ into this to find out how to manage it.

montanagriz said:

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$240 Worth of Pudding said:

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I'm all for a massive white tail depopulation in this state.
They've become almost like pigeons in some suburbs of major cities. Hell, there are more deer in the US now than there were in the same geographical area when the Mayflower arrived.

---

There were more bears, elk, and bison then

---

I do wonder when/where predators enter this equation in Texas.

when we lived in California, the mountain lion population was exploding due to hogs/deer overpopulation.

Darwin will have his day. eventually so much meat on the hoof will attract a predator. given coyotes are wandering suburbia you have to wonder when/how a higher level predator will enter the picture, and how people today will respond given delicate sensibilities.

last I read, mountain lions are expanding east of the Mississippi. once they hit the Appalachian mountains and all the meat on the eastern seaboard, I suspect their population will take off.

there's black bears roaming northern Virginia neighborhoods/urban areas now, but I don't think that's driven by the insane number of deer here.

urban bear

California Ag 90 said:

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montanagriz said:

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$240 Worth of Pudding said:

---

I'm all for a massive white tail depopulation in this state.
They've become almost like pigeons in some suburbs of major cities. Hell, there are more deer in the US now than there were in the same geographical area when the Mayflower arrived.

---

There were more bears, elk, and bison then

---

I do wonder when/where predators enter this equation in Texas.

when we lived in California, the mountain lion population was exploding due to hogs/deer overpopulation.

Darwin will have his day. eventually so much meat on the hoof will attract a predator. given coyotes are wandering suburbia you have to wonder when/how a higher level predator will enter the picture, and how people today will respond given delicate sensibilities.

last I read, mountain lions are expanding east of the Mississippi. once they hit the Appalachian mountains and all the meat on the eastern seaboard, I suspect their population will take off.

there's black bears roaming northern Virginia neighborhoods/urban areas now, but I don't think that's driven by the insane number of deer here.

urban bear

---

You know how they will respond

Gunny456 said:

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The only way to have a good hunting experience is to be able and hunt on private ranches in Colorado that are well managed.... and were out of our financial ability.

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That isn't the only way to go hunting in Colorado. I live here, hunt here, and have many friends that do the same. The vast majority hunt public and have a good hunting experience.

schmellba99 said:

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You know how they will respond

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truth.

Gunny456 said:

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ags 92 has hit the proverbial nail on the head. Smartest guy on here.

Never should been allowed to raise them in pens and move em around.

Hind sight is always 20-20.

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The most maddening thing is that even with the 20/20 hindsight, they STILL won't do the right thing. They are still letting them move deer around using tests that are clearly not accurately catching the disease before deer get moved. Just heard that there were 52 positives at one breeder site reported within the last few days. That is going to be a mess for TPWD to clean up after, with a likely uncooperative landowner.

ConfidentAg said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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So, one of these years, possibly someone will show up to thanksgiving with some venison sausage and kill their entire extended family off within 5-10 years.

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Or 20-30 years. Prion diseases take a long time sometimes.

Could you imagine a prion disease that transfers via saliva (similar to CWD and deer right?) that only manifests itself after 20-30 years?

We need a prion expert to explain these things to us.

---

this 'forum code' violation will not let me post links to source documents.


FRIDAY, DECEMBER 02, 2022

Creutzfeldt Jacob Disease CJD TSE Prion December 2022 Annual Update

https://creutzfeldt-jakob-disease.blogspot.com/2022/12/creutzfeldt-jacob-disease-cjd-tse-prion.html

Yep. I had to make a hard decision about 15 years ago... I was managing some ranches ( wildlife) and three of them wanted to start doing whitetail breeding/pen raising/ selling. I was making some decent wages from them but told them I would have anything to do with it. I really second guessed myself for a while.
Do you think the commissioners control it?
TPWD still has them right?

California Ag 90 said:

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montanagriz said:

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$240 Worth of Pudding said:

---

I'm all for a massive white tail depopulation in this state.
They've become almost like pigeons in some suburbs of major cities. Hell, there are more deer in the US now than there were in the same geographical area when the Mayflower arrived.

---

There were more bears, elk, and bison then

---

I do wonder when/where predators enter this equation in Texas.

when we lived in California, the mountain lion population was exploding due to hogs/deer overpopulation.

Darwin will have his day. eventually so much meat on the hoof will attract a predator. given coyotes are wandering suburbia you have to wonder when/how a higher level predator will enter the picture, and how people today will respond given delicate sensibilities.

last I read, mountain lions are expanding east of the Mississippi. once they hit the Appalachian mountains and all the meat on the eastern seaboard, I suspect their population will take off.

there's black bears roaming northern Virginia neighborhoods/urban areas now, but I don't think that's driven by the insane number of deer here.

urban bear

---

I prefer the suburban cougar to the urban bear.

Gunny456 said:

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Yep. I had to make a hard decision about 15 years ago... I was managing some ranches ( wildlife) and three of them wanted to start doing whitetail breeding/pen raising/ selling. I was making some decent wages from them but told them I would have anything to do with it. I really second guessed myself for a while.
Do you think the commissioners control it?
TPWD still has them right?

---

I think the commission has not been on the same side as the scientists in the agency for most of the last 2-3 decades on the issue, and even when the commission would likely agree, they are controlled by the elected officials that control the TPWD budget. I would like to see them make the right decision and then fight the issue of their budget in the media with whatever elected officials want to punish them for the decision. The science and the public opinion will be on their side if they choose to fight the good fight.

Agree.

AnScAggie said:

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California Ag 90 said:

---

montanagriz said:

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$240 Worth of Pudding said:

---

I'm all for a massive white tail depopulation in this state.
They've become almost like pigeons in some suburbs of major cities. Hell, there are more deer in the US now than there were in the same geographical area when the Mayflower arrived.

---

There were more bears, elk, and bison then

---

I do wonder when/where predators enter this equation in Texas.

when we lived in California, the mountain lion population was exploding due to hogs/deer overpopulation.

Darwin will have his day. eventually so much meat on the hoof will attract a predator. given coyotes are wandering suburbia you have to wonder when/how a higher level predator will enter the picture, and how people today will respond given delicate sensibilities.

last I read, mountain lions are expanding east of the Mississippi. once they hit the Appalachian mountains and all the meat on the eastern seaboard, I suspect their population will take off.

there's black bears roaming northern Virginia neighborhoods/urban areas now, but I don't think that's driven by the insane number of deer here.

urban bear

---

I prefer the suburban cougar to the urban bear.

---

suburbia here seems to be more 'snow leopard' territory - sigh...