Rattler12 said:

---

GSS said:

---

Rattler12 said:

---

GSS said:

---

Rattler12 said:

---

GSS said:

---

Do you routinely misconstrue other's comments, or is this an exception?

We run cattle, have zero "love" for coyotes, but nor is a complete elimination of predators ever on our radar. The referenced Menard ranch had undergone the "gov't trapper" route...eradication of ALL predators.
Yet the rancher was oblivious to the unintended consequences of a rabbit and coon population explosion.

---

I must have hit a nerve ....wasn't the intention. But the question still remains. Which would coyotes/ foxes go after first? Lambs and kids or jackrabbits? Are you saying predation on cattle is the same as sheep and goats?

---

This....."Why the love of life for the yote/fox and the indifference towards the deer? Double standard?"

...tells me the only right answer or perspective, will be the one you espouse.

---

Why evade the question? Which will they go after first?

---

If I must...with context. This ranch was 4000 acres, one pasture (not even a section) was being used for goats (and that effort was abandoned), the rest cattle, 100% predator eradication. So the one fox spotted had plenty of rabbits, coons, rats, mice, to dine on, no competition, but I suppose that the fox could have only chosen to eat kid goats, and simply gone hungry, when a baby goat was not available.

Or been the opportunists that most predators are, and chowed down on the closest meal.

But you're probably right, that fox definitely would have only dined on kid goats. Death to all foxes, coyotes, bobcats, badgers, hawks, bald eagles, etc...


And if you're having success on downed cows getting up, recovering...consider yourself very lucky.

---

You're worse than the governor in the BLWHinT movie at dancin a little sidestep. You answer a question without answering the question and think you answered the question

---

GSS said:

---

Rattler12 said:

---

GSS said:

---

Rattler12 said:

---

GSS said:

---

Rattler12 said:

---

GSS said:

---

Do you routinely misconstrue other's comments, or is this an exception?

We run cattle, have zero "love" for coyotes, but nor is a complete elimination of predators ever on our radar. The referenced Menard ranch had undergone the "gov't trapper" route...eradication of ALL predators.
Yet the rancher was oblivious to the unintended consequences of a rabbit and coon population explosion.

---

I must have hit a nerve ....wasn't the intention. But the question still remains. Which would coyotes/ foxes go after first? Lambs and kids or jackrabbits? Are you saying predation on cattle is the same as sheep and goats?

---

This....."Why the love of life for the yote/fox and the indifference towards the deer? Double standard?"

...tells me the only right answer or perspective, will be the one you espouse.

---

Why evade the question? Which will they go after first?

---

If I must...with context. This ranch was 4000 acres, one pasture (not even a section) was being used for goats (and that effort was abandoned), the rest cattle, 100% predator eradication. So the one fox spotted had plenty of rabbits, coons, rats, mice, to dine on, no competition, but I suppose that the fox could have only chosen to eat kid goats, and simply gone hungry, when a baby goat was not available.

Or been the opportunists that most predators are, and chowed down on the closest meal.

But you're probably right, that fox definitely would have only dined on kid goats. Death to all foxes, coyotes, bobcats, badgers, hawks, bald eagles, etc...


And if you're having success on downed cows getting up, recovering...consider yourself very lucky.

---

You're worse than the governor in the BLWHinT movie at dancin a little sidestep. You answer a question without answering the question and think you answered the question

---

Give us the only right answer, so all on the OB will be educated....

---

KatyAg88 said:

---

rab79, you being sarcastic? Pretty sure most of those bloodied animals are lambs.

---

Rattler12 said:

---

rab79 said:

---

Bears and wolves are hard on sheep up north, and you ever see a badger in the wild? And you need to add spot to your list. They are mostly safe from fluffy, although we did find a dachshund that had a half grown lamb down one time.

I believe you when you say you don't know anything about sheep because everyone that does knows the best description of them is, and I quote, "an animal born looking for a place to die".

---

Here around the Spring Branch area of Comal CO and with the influx of city folk, one of the bigger problems for the goat ranchers are people letting their dogs run loose. They will pack up and do some serious damage to a herd of goats. They usually get shot on site no questions asked. A friend was the foreman of a ranch here and they ran goats on the place. A couple of dogs got into the herd and killed 32 of them. He shoots both of them. He puts a Lost and Found note on the bulletin board at the Spring Branch Store saying "Found 2 dogs call xxx-xxxx to get them back. A couple of days later a man calls and described and asked about the dogs. Buddy said Yep I think that's them. Guy says can we come pick them up? Buddy says yessir and gives them directions to the ranch. They show up and ask where the dogs are. He takes them into the barn, opens the freezer and says "Is that them" The guy says yes. Buddy says they killed 32 of my goats . you owe me $3200. The man and his wife collected the 2 dogs and sent him $3200.

---

txags92 said:

---

Rattler12 said:

---

rab79 said:

---

Bears and wolves are hard on sheep up north, and you ever see a badger in the wild? And you need to add spot to your list. They are mostly safe from fluffy, although we did find a dachshund that had a half grown lamb down one time.

I believe you when you say you don't know anything about sheep because everyone that does knows the best description of them is, and I quote, "an animal born looking for a place to die".

---

Here around the Spring Branch area of Comal CO and with the influx of city folk, one of the bigger problems for the goat ranchers are people letting their dogs run loose. They will pack up and do some serious damage to a herd of goats. They usually get shot on site no questions asked. A friend was the foreman of a ranch here and they ran goats on the place. A couple of dogs got into the herd and killed 32 of them. He shoots both of them. He puts a Lost and Found note on the bulletin board at the Spring Branch Store saying "Found 2 dogs call xxx-xxxx to get them back. A couple of days later a man calls and described and asked about the dogs. Buddy said Yep I think that's them. Guy says can we come pick them up? Buddy says yessir and gives them directions to the ranch. They show up and ask where the dogs are. He takes them into the barn, opens the freezer and says "Is that them" The guy says yes. Buddy says they killed 32 of my goats . you owe me $3200. The man and his wife collected the 2 dogs and sent him $3200.

---

We have had dogs kill our goats on at least 2 occasions and 2 of them have died for it. Never had a coyote take one in over 30 years.

---

Quote:

---

There is a lot that is done in ranching that is done because that is the way my (insert relative here) has always done it and it worked for him

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Lethal control methods utilized historically by livestock producers initially included shooting, trapping, snaring, the use of dogs to trail and kill predators, and strychnine to treat livestock carcasses. Clearing of the Edwards Plateau of canid predators, which occurred by the late 1930s, in-volved these methods in addition to extensive use of netwire fencing as described by Jones (1938) and development of the professional control program (Caroline 1973, l978a). In addition to the use of strychnine single-dose baits in the ADC program, early in the 1940s the Humane Coyote Getter sodium cyanide device was introduced experimentally and soon became a highly effective method particularly during fall and winter months. This was followed by experimental use of Compound 1080-treated large baits in 1949. Success in this project was followed by operational use of 1080 baits from 1950 to 1972, when cancellation of the use of toxicants in the federal program by order of President Nixon (Nixon 1972) and the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) occurred (Ruckelshaus 1972). Following cancellation of the predacides in 1972, by order of USDI Assistant Secretary Reed, the USFWS temporarily implemented an "accelerated" program with additional federal funds in an attempt to demonstrate that mechanical control methods were adequate to control coyote predation. Despite the additional funds the "accelerated" program was only partially successful and was discontinued after 1978. However, with the loss of chemicals and the need for additional methods, aerial hunting became more important in the ADC program.

---

---

Quote:

---

Limitations at the federal level began with issuance of the "Leopold Report" (Leopold et al.) in 1964 and the "Cain Report" (Cain et al.) in 1971, which ostensibly was the genesis of the Executive Order by President Nixon (1972} and the EPA (Ruckelshaus 1972) order which cancelled the predacides. In fact, the decision to cancel had been made much earlier by collusion in the USOI and the President's Council on Environmental Quality in a procedure deliberately planned to circumvent legal and due process (Wade 1975, Wade and Beasom 1979, Macintyre 1982, Howard 1979, 1984) and came about by secret agreement of counsel for the USDI and certain environmental groups in 1971 (U.S. Dis~rict Court of Columbia 1971). However, the approach was effective in subverting legal and due process to secure cancellation of the predacides.

---

SMM48 said:

---

good for them....

I'd still split those wigs even though your cousin has had great fortune

---

Quote:

---

How many nights do you walk outside in Wimberly or Spring Branch and hear coyotes howling in multiple packs across several miles?

---

Apache said:

---

Quote:

---

How many nights do you walk outside in Wimberly or Spring Branch and hear coyotes howling in multiple packs across several miles?

---

Almost every night in far South Austin. Dogs are the apex predators, but there aren't stray dogs roaming around towns like there used to be. Coyotes are back to being "top dog". I've seen coyotes & foxes all over town they have little fear of people. Bobcats are around but much more secretive.

---

AnScAggie said:

---

Just to add perspective, or fuel to the fire, your choice. How many nights do you walk outside in Wimberly or Spring Branch and hear coyotes howling in multiple packs across several miles? How many times do you drive around your neighborhood or property and see a coyote or bobcat? Dogs are the apex predator in those locations, because many generations ago our forefathers exterminated the wolves and cougars, and put a pretty good hurt on bobcats and coyotes.

Get out to a ranch in STX or WTX and you'll have predators galore. In the last 20 months I've taken over 130 bobcats and nearly 100 coyotes. And just today at 9:30 this morning I saw a bobcat, yesterday afternoon I shot a coyote. Will I ever get rid of them all, nope, but before I started my predator control I didn't have a single fallow or blackbuck baby survive plus who knows how many whitetail fawns got killed as well. Since I've started controlling them with a vengeance, I have growing populations of young fallow, axis and blackbuck, javelina (which I like), and quail. Whitetails we're always reproducing, so the extent of loss is harder to quantify.

---

AnScAggie said:

---

Apache said:

---

Quote:

---

I have growing populations of young fallow, axis and blackbuck, javelina (which I like), and quail.

---

The killing of coyotes & bobcats may have a negative impact long term on quail numbers as they control the populations of javelina, raccoons, mice, rats, possums, squirrels etc. which all get into nests & eat eggs or chicks. Short term you may see a boom.

It's surprising to me those deer species are that poor raising young around coyotes when in their native habitat they are dealing with tigers, leopards, wolves etc.

---

Not surprising in the least. Do think the blackbuck or axis on today's Texas ranches came from Asia? Also, I'd say the bobcats do a bigger number on them than the coyotes. And lastly, south austin coyotes don't have the same prey species as rural coyotes. Trapping does wonders for those nest predators you mentioned.

---

txags92 said:

---

AnScAggie said:

---

Just to add perspective, or fuel to the fire, your choice. How many nights do you walk outside in Wimberly or Spring Branch and hear coyotes howling in multiple packs across several miles? How many times do you drive around your neighborhood or property and see a coyote or bobcat? Dogs are the apex predator in those locations, because many generations ago our forefathers exterminated the wolves and cougars, and put a pretty good hurt on bobcats and coyotes.

Get out to a ranch in STX or WTX and you'll have predators galore. In the last 20 months I've taken over 130 bobcats and nearly 100 coyotes. And just today at 9:30 this morning I saw a bobcat, yesterday afternoon I shot a coyote. Will I ever get rid of them all, nope, but before I started my predator control I didn't have a single fallow or blackbuck baby survive plus who knows how many whitetail fawns got killed as well. Since I've started controlling them with a vengeance, I have growing populations of young fallow, axis and blackbuck, javelina (which I like), and quail. Whitetails we're always reproducing, so the extent of loss is harder to quantify.

---

I am not criticizing you for your choices, but I find it interesting that you are killing native predators and unbalancing the rest of the habitat/ecosystem so that you can protect exotics that were otherwise outcompeted by native whitetails. That is kind of the opposite of what usually happens, where the exotics don't have as many predators and outcompete the native species.

---

jwoodmd said:

---

txags92 said:

---

AnScAggie said:

---

Just to add perspective, or fuel to the fire, your choice. How many nights do you walk outside in Wimberly or Spring Branch and hear coyotes howling in multiple packs across several miles? How many times do you drive around your neighborhood or property and see a coyote or bobcat? Dogs are the apex predator in those locations, because many generations ago our forefathers exterminated the wolves and cougars, and put a pretty good hurt on bobcats and coyotes.

Get out to a ranch in STX or WTX and you'll have predators galore. In the last 20 months I've taken over 130 bobcats and nearly 100 coyotes. And just today at 9:30 this morning I saw a bobcat, yesterday afternoon I shot a coyote. Will I ever get rid of them all, nope, but before I started my predator control I didn't have a single fallow or blackbuck baby survive plus who knows how many whitetail fawns got killed as well. Since I've started controlling them with a vengeance, I have growing populations of young fallow, axis and blackbuck, javelina (which I like), and quail. Whitetails we're always reproducing, so the extent of loss is harder to quantify.

---

I am not criticizing you for your choices, but I find it interesting that you are killing native predators and unbalancing the rest of the habitat/ecosystem so that you can protect exotics that were otherwise outcompeted by native whitetails. That is kind of the opposite of what usually happens, where the exotics don't have as many predators and outcompete the native species.

---

So, deer feeders with corn and cottonseed are part of the natural habitat and ecosystem?

---

jwoodmd said:

---

txags92 said:

---

AnScAggie said:

---

Just to add perspective, or fuel to the fire, your choice. How many nights do you walk outside in Wimberly or Spring Branch and hear coyotes howling in multiple packs across several miles? How many times do you drive around your neighborhood or property and see a coyote or bobcat? Dogs are the apex predator in those locations, because many generations ago our forefathers exterminated the wolves and cougars, and put a pretty good hurt on bobcats and coyotes.

Get out to a ranch in STX or WTX and you'll have predators galore. In the last 20 months I've taken over 130 bobcats and nearly 100 coyotes. And just today at 9:30 this morning I saw a bobcat, yesterday afternoon I shot a coyote. Will I ever get rid of them all, nope, but before I started my predator control I didn't have a single fallow or blackbuck baby survive plus who knows how many whitetail fawns got killed as well. Since I've started controlling them with a vengeance, I have growing populations of young fallow, axis and blackbuck, javelina (which I like), and quail. Whitetails we're always reproducing, so the extent of loss is harder to quantify.

---

I am not criticizing you for your choices, but I find it interesting that you are killing native predators and unbalancing the rest of the habitat/ecosystem so that you can protect exotics that were otherwise outcompeted by native whitetails. That is kind of the opposite of what usually happens, where the exotics don't have as many predators and outcompete the native species.

---

So, deer feeders with corn and cottonseed are part of the natural habitat and ecosystem?

---

jpb1999 said:

---

What is it attacking here?

---

agrams said:

---

but we only do #2 and #3 after getting approval from Brad, mitch, and Terry.

---