Now that I carry, mostly, a 12 oz gun, I keep it loaded with Federal gold medal wad cutters.

Which I change out every week, when I shoot them at the range.

I'm sure it's profitable for the ammo company, but I think it might make more sense to carry loads which are more at a "weekly practice" price point, than a "unload them, save them, and load other ammo" price point.

From looking at the "meat target" videos, and Lucky Gunners ballistic test, it seems like it's a bit of a crap shoot on whether or not a JHP will expand, especially at compact gun impact velocities.

And when you add layers of clothing it gets worse for HPs. Not saying I'm switching to wadcutters, but I'm tracking on your line of thought. What cartridge you talking about?

While expansion of a HP projectile will undoubtedly assist in doing damage I'd venture to say that as it pertains to handguns for defense, the majority of importantly lies in putting as many holes as possible in the right spots quickly rather than ensuring those holes do maximum possible carnage.

Certainly not saying hollow points are useless but simply implying that wadcutters and FMJ's will do the job too. Hollow points just give you an edge when they function properly in your gun and in your target. Is that edge something worth having? That's for each to decide based on his weapon of choice and shooting style.

My personal choice is 200gr flat nosed FMJ's in my .45ACP 1911. They shoot very very softly for ensuring a view of the front sight through recoil cycle and control ability of recoil, which leads to very quick following shots. Also a 200gr flat nosed .45 FMJ at near 950fps is quite a slap in the old chest cavity.

Knowing I can drop 4-5 of those suckers center mass in 2-2.5 seconds from concealment is a damn nice comfort in a dark alley.

McDadeTXAggie said:

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So when a hollow point doesn't function properly doesn't it function very similar to a full metal jacket?

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Except when it doesn't chamber or cycle.

And even then, no it has different dimensions than a FMJ and also has a cavity in the front to fill with matter. It also has an exposed edge of the jacket that might shatter or ununiformly open upon impact with bone.

Ask a dangerous game hunter about the value of a properly bonded jacket.

Hunting dangerous game and a every day carry are vastly different. What is the purpose of the firearm/ammo in question?

For micro gun...

https://www.luckygunner.com/9mm-150-grain-hst-jhp-federal-premium-20-rounds#geltest

Could always go FBI.

https://www.luckygunner.com/9mm-135-gr-p-jhp-flexlock-hornady-critical-duty-25-rounds#geltes

Barrel twist....what's yours, and then matchup the ammo suited for the twist.

Since fbi uses Glock and their 10 barrel twist.....Hornady made sure that the ammo that they submitted was going to work best in 10:twist.

McDadeTXAggie said:

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Hunting dangerous game and a every day carry are vastly different. What is the purpose of the firearm/ammo in question?

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Depends on your shooting style and tactic.

I dump several rounds in center mass looking for a strike to the CNS. Any tissue damage or blood loss is purely secondary to my goal.

That's precisely the same goal of dangerous game hunting.

Do you not consider a violent criminal dangerous?

I realize my credentials are much less known on this board so I'll let Bender handle the response to that if he so chooses. It think it'll lend some credibility to what I'm sure is a very similar answer to mine.

DG rounds and handgun rounds both wound the same way - just cutting holes.

I wasn't just trying to get into my fondness for wadcutters, especially out of my 12 oz gun.

I'm having issues right now, so I seem to need to carry very light guns, with minimal... vibration? It's not exactly recoil, as my 57 left me in pain for days - not germane to the current topic.

My point was that many of us, myself included, carry Ammo which we find prohibitive to shoot 50 rounds a weak of.

I'm sure most of us could afford it, but it seems "unnecessary", so we buy what are supposed to be very well made rounds, then unload them, load the "cheap" ones, and reload them.

Not that big a deal in a revolver, but could case so,e issues I'm semi autos

Then, if we are in a SD shooting, we are shooting ammo without much familiarity with its recoil or POA, under stress, and out of a gun which, most likely, is too small to have the proper impact velocity.

I shot some SD JHPs out of my government model. I immediately froze, and started checking the gun for a double charge, as it was so much more noise and recoil than my standard loads.

I switched to a softer loaded JHP which was the same bullet weight and speed as my practice rounds.

My point is that I think it's better to carry cheaper ammo, and rotate it through weekly - I can't think of the last time I've had "decent" range ammo have a failure, and I am buying pretty well made wadcutters - and that it might be rather important to know the load and the round.

My second point is that lots of JHPs seem to fail to open from small guns - and if/once that happens, just like DG rounds, a flat meplat and penetration will do more damage.

Sounds like a good reason to get the new Glock .22lr pistol.

Can still train with much cheaper ammo.

Oh, I'm a big fan of 22 trainers. Just bought one for my J frame, and there's a reason they've been around forever, but, unless you're a newer shooter, I'm convinced there's more benefit in using the same money to buy a few cases of ammo for your carry gun.

It goes back to being able to know how sights move under recoil/being familiar with the slide movement, recoil etc of your carry gun.

EG, I've been messing about with my plate rack again* - just at 15 yards, and not moving too fast, except for a brief run w. my old single stack - I know it's sights well.

Each gun requires a little bit different sight picture. Admittedly, if they all had narrow fiber optic front sights with large light bars, it would be easier.

*S&W 28-2, custom lightweight commander, Browning 1911-380, and a 340PD

I'm not a huge fan of jacketed hollow points. If you're looking for cheap ammo, find something your gun likes and stick with it.

phideaux_2003 said:

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I realize my credentials are much less known on this board so I'll let Bender handle the response to that if he so chooses. It think it'll lend some credibility to what I'm sure is a very similar answer to mine.

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Apparently Bender is skipping this thread.

So yes physiologically a Cape buffalo or lion are very different from an armed attacker. But your goal in shooting them is the same. Immediate cessation of an attack.

In both cases you don't have time to wait for a complete bleed out or even for a heart shot to halt the attack through blood loss.

You need puncture of the central nervous system and in a human being, that's the spine, brain or brain stem. Those are all in the back. The furthest point from the muzzle of your gun on an advancing attacker. (Or buffalo)

The brain is protected by the skull and generally requires an oculo-cranial cavity shot for guaranteed success. That's a tough shot on a moving target. Your second option is to put a bullet all the way through the body and to hope it has enough power left when it gets to the spine or brain stem and there's clothing, skin, muscle, fat, bone, organs, etc in the way.

Thusly, I carry fast moving FMJ's. Just like dangerous game rifles.

That's why I carry them.

And if I read your response correctly, it appears you have a lot more faith in handgun cartridges than I do. Can you elaborate on "it's not gonna matter what bullet it is if you shoot someone in the chest with a .45"?

If we're talking hand guns and a human is the target, hands down your traditional hollow point is the best option. If it doesn't break off into pieces, its soft enough to expand causing an enlarged wound cavity.

If its large game, or dangerous game, you need deeper penetration. Hence the need for a jacketed round. When you watch a documentary or a show based on true crime. The fatalities caused by jacked rounds make a clean entrance and exit wound. The victim either bleeds out or dies on the way to the hospital. This is assuming the round didnt penetrate a vital organ.

The human torso is much thinner than Cape buffalo, big cats etc. Even your traditional hollow point will often exit but usually with a larger, and nastier exit wound.

A .45 whether it be hollow point or a jacketed round is gonna do severe damage to the human torso. The person taking that round is most likely hitting the floor. If they can get back up is another story. I would wager that most often times if they're able to get back on their feet, they're not in a state to do much and will expire quickly. For sure if it's a hollow point

I got lucky in that this monarch 18gr jhp is the most accurate ammo I've shot through my Shield .40. bought a couple cases and it's all I shoot through it

edit...lol sorry wrong link

NRD09 said:

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I got lucky in that this monarch 180gr jhp is the most accurate ammo I've shot through my Shield .40. bought a couple cases and it's all I shoot through it

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A Citizen ProMaster dive watch, huh? How's the recoil on that?

NRD09 said:

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I got lucky in that this monarch 180gr jhp is the most accurate ammo I've shot through my Shield .40. bought a couple cases and it's all I shoot through it

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Does that automatic need a tax stamp?

I'm reading an article from the NYTimes about gunshot fatalities in different calibers.
67% died when shot by a .45
57% from 9mm

The overall statistics get brought down from those being shot by .22, .25, .32, .38, and .380. Yes, I'm well aware that the .22 is the caliber of choice for hitmen. I'm a true crime junkie. I also will have my Associates in firearms technology this year so I know a little something or another about ballistics

phideaux_2003 said:

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Apparently Bender is skipping this thread.

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I saw it, was going to respond to OP, forgot about it, and came back to "The .45 ACP is a magic bullet" and had to respond.

So while I'm at it I'll say what I was going to say to the original poster:

Man, if you're getting in a good 50 rounds of practice a week, I don't care what you're carrying. You're ahead of 99.99% of people carrying a gun.

Shot placement and training are what matters. If wadcutters are what you can handle shooting, and you know they hit for you, rock on. Wadcutters aren't wiz bang tactical, but they'll do if you can hit with them.

Sorry your hands are giving you trouble.

BenderRodriguez said:

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phideaux_2003 said:

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Apparently Bender is skipping this thread.

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I saw it, was going to respond to OP, forgot about it, and came back to "The .45 ACP is a magic bullet" and had to respond.

So while I'm at it I'll say what I was going to say to the original poster:

Man, if you're getting in a good 50 rounds of practice a week, I don't care what you're carrying. You're ahead of 99.99% of people carrying a gun.

Shot placement and training are what matters. If wadcutters are what you can handle shooting, and you know they hit for you, rock on. Wadcutters aren't wiz bang tactical, but they'll do if you can hit with them.

Sorry your hands are giving you trouble.

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Guess I jumped the gun. Thanks for chiming in. As always your expert opinion is appreciated.

Not an expert. No one should take anything I ever say as gospel. I just read a lot, take classes from people who are experts, and do my best to not buy into gun store/internet bs. (Fun fact, I shot Federal syntech .45 acp at a match last weekend. Had two different people swear up and down that the federal syntech X loading shot softer than the other Y loading. Of course, one was arguing for 230 gr and one for 220 gr.)

I still personally prefer hollow points in whatever handgun caliber I'm carrying for a variety of reasons...but training and shot placement is king of everything else because as you mentioned....handgun rounds (ALL handgun rounds) suck at stopping people.

Fair enough! And yes anything short of the big revolver rounds (.460/.500/.454 etc) and the handguns chambered in rifle cartridges, handguns are simply poor man killers.

Can it be done? Yes! But not super reliably. Not like a rifle.

BenderRodriguez said:

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McDadeTXAggie said:

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A .45 whether it be hollow point or a jacketed round is gonna do severe damage to the human torso. The person taking that round is most likely hitting the floor. If they can get back up is another story. I would wager that most often times if they're able to get back on their feet, they're not in a state to do much and will expire quickly. For sure if it's a hollow point

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No.

https://www.policemag.com/340699/shots-fired-skokie-illinois-08-25-2008

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Thanks for posting a story on one person? I'll stick to common sense and a host of statistics

McDadeTXAggie said:

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BenderRodriguez said:

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McDadeTXAggie said:

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A .45 whether it be hollow point or a jacketed round is gonna do severe damage to the human torso. The person taking that round is most likely hitting the floor. If they can get back up is another story. I would wager that most often times if they're able to get back on their feet, they're not in a state to do much and will expire quickly. For sure if it's a hollow point

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No.

https://www.policemag.com/340699/shots-fired-skokie-illinois-08-25-2008

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Thanks for posting a story on one person? I'll stick to common sense and a host of statistics

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Can you post some of these statistics?

powerbelly said:

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McDadeTXAggie said:

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BenderRodriguez said:

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McDadeTXAggie said:

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A .45 whether it be hollow point or a jacketed round is gonna do severe damage to the human torso. The person taking that round is most likely hitting the floor. If they can get back up is another story. I would wager that most often times if they're able to get back on their feet, they're not in a state to do much and will expire quickly. For sure if it's a hollow point

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No.

https://www.policemag.com/340699/shots-fired-skokie-illinois-08-25-2008

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Thanks for posting a story on one person? I'll stick to common sense and a host of statistics

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Can you post some of these statistics?

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I did already. Google NY Times gunshot fatalities by caliber. It's a study taken from the city of Boston. Over half the people shot by 9mm and .45, died.

What condition where the others that survived? I don't know but I darn sure dont wanna take a chance in finding out what that's like

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/03/27/upshot/deadly-bullets-guns.html

McDadeTXAggie said:

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powerbelly said:

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McDadeTXAggie said:

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BenderRodriguez said:

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McDadeTXAggie said:

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A .45 whether it be hollow point or a jacketed round is gonna do severe damage to the human torso. The person taking that round is most likely hitting the floor. If they can get back up is another story. I would wager that most often times if they're able to get back on their feet, they're not in a state to do much and will expire quickly. For sure if it's a hollow point

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No.

https://www.policemag.com/340699/shots-fired-skokie-illinois-08-25-2008

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Thanks for posting a story on one person? I'll stick to common sense and a host of statistics

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Can you post some of these statistics?

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I did already. Google NY Times gunshot fatalities by caliber. It's a study taken from the city of Boston. Over half the people shot by 9mm and .45, died.

What condition where the others that survived? I don't know but I darn sure dont wanna take a chance in finding out what that's like

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I'm not sure that article is convincing as you think it is.

The FBI chose 9mm while Boston criminals favor 45.

powerbelly said:

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McDadeTXAggie said:

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powerbelly said:

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McDadeTXAggie said:

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BenderRodriguez said:

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McDadeTXAggie said:

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A .45 whether it be hollow point or a jacketed round is gonna do severe damage to the human torso. The person taking that round is most likely hitting the floor. If they can get back up is another story. I would wager that most often times if they're able to get back on their feet, they're not in a state to do much and will expire quickly. For sure if it's a hollow point

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No.

https://www.policemag.com/340699/shots-fired-skokie-illinois-08-25-2008

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Thanks for posting a story on one person? I'll stick to common sense and a host of statistics

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Can you post some of these statistics?

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I did already. Google NY Times gunshot fatalities by caliber. It's a study taken from the city of Boston. Over half the people shot by 9mm and .45, died.

What condition where the others that survived? I don't know but I darn sure dont wanna take a chance in finding out what that's like

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I'm not sure that article is convincing as you think it is.

The FBI chose 9mm while Boston criminals favor 45.

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So what exactly are you saying? What's your point?
9mm, .40, .45, and .357 are all pistol calibers with over 50% kill rate

If that's not convincing I don't know what else to tell you. I wish there were data one the above calibers in hollow point. My guess is the numbers climb

Quote:

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A .45 whether it be hollow point or a jacketed round is gonna do severe damage to the human torso. The person taking that round is most likely hitting the floor. If they can get back up is another story. I would wager that most often times if they're able to get back on their feet, they're not in a state to do much and will expire quickly. For sure if it's a hollow point

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This is not addressed at all by the article you posted.

The article, in particular, didn't focus on the nature of the shootings (defensive, execution, etc) so it is almost worthless when talking about self-defense.

Almost everyone agrees the 9mm and up is sufficient for self-defense.