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January Handgun Drill

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BenderRodriguez
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11:14a, 1/2/20
AG
We had 11 people (plus me) shoot the December version.

Hope we have as many or more participate this month.

THE RULES:

Post a picture of your target(s) from the monthly drill I'll post. Share how you did, what you learned, any restrictions you had to shoot with due to range rules or other considerations, etc.

At the end of the month everyone who posted a picture of their target gets put into a drawing for a random prize (going to be around a $25 value).

January 2020 drill: No Fail by Chuck Pressburg.

Target: B8
Range: 25 yards
Par Time: 3.5 seconds

Must shoot this drill COLD. No warm up, first thing you do at the range. Can only be shot once per day. Goal is to measure cold performance. From concealment, draw and fire one round at B8 target at 25 yards in 3.5 seconds or less. A hit in the black is a pass. A hit outside the black is a fail.

Repeat 10 times.

This drill is difficult. Period. It requires a very, very high degree of accuracy in a limited amount of time. I would be surprised if anyone went 10/10 on it. But I thought it would be a nice homage to the outstanding shooting under pressure done by Jack Wilson in the Ft Worth church shooting.

It's a hard drill. But as we saw in Ft Worth, sometimes you have to make a hard shot. So we might as well practice more than just A zone hits at 3 yards, right?

The black target area of a B8 target measures 5.54 inches diameter, if anyone doesn't have B8s and wants to make their own instead of ordering them.

I'd recommend taking some tape with you for this one. After each run, tape your hit. That way you don't have to burn through 10 B8 targets to shoot the drill once.

Another mental tip I got from Pat McNamara about shooting B8s at distance: we tend to look at where we don't want the hit to land. If you're going to focus/worry about not hitting the white....you're going to smack it in the white over and over again. Stop worrying about the outcome of the shot, and focus on a good performance to make the shot. Good sight alignment, good trigger press, and the shot will go where it needs to. Performance over outcome.
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frorge
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11:19a, 1/2/20
AG
25 Yards!?
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CT'97
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11:26a, 1/2/20
AG
Printable B8 center

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BenderRodriguez
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In reply to CT'97 • 11:27a, 1/2/20
AG
Thank you! I should have looked for that before I posted the drill. I have a stack of B8s in my pile of targets, but that is perfect for anyone who doesn't have them on hand.
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BenderRodriguez
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In reply to frorge • 11:30a, 1/2/20
AG
Yes. It's a hard drill. You don't improve by succeeding at an easy task over and over again. You improve by failing and learning something from it.

Here's what a B8 look like from the 25 yard line.



And here's the best slow fire 5 shot group I got last time I shot a handgun at 25 yards.



Like I said, I fully expect no one to go 10/10 on this drill, me included. And that's okay, as long as you learn something from failing at it.
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A New Hope
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2:01p, 1/2/20
Apologize for my innocence. But 25 yards seems like a long way with a handgun. From a self defense standpoint, isn't that a distance you won't ever be shooting?
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DatTallArchitect
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In reply to CT'97 • 2:08p, 1/2/20
AG
CT'97 said:
Printable B8 center

?v=1523301965
what size of sheet do you print that on?
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UTExan
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2:18p, 1/2/20
Doing that drill cold definitely is difficult!
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
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jabberwalkie09
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In reply to A New Hope • 2:56p, 1/2/20
AG
Fedup said:
Apologize for my innocence. But 25 yards seems like a long way with a handgun. From a self defense standpoint, isn't that a distance you won't ever be shooting?

I get what Bender is going for here, basically modeling it after Jack Wilson from White Settlement. Sure this is much further than what most people shot normally, but there's always a chance that you might need to make a shot at.

But yes, from a normal self defense stand point I believe you're looking more at 7-10 yards.
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jabberwalkie09
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2:59p, 1/2/20
AG
Bender, is this the target you're using?

Official NRA Target B8C- 25 Yard Slow Fire Center- 10.5" x 10.5" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ICSJNL8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_eLLdEbZ6WWBPC
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dr_boogs
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In reply to jabberwalkie09 • 3:02p, 1/2/20
AG
I think I remember an old defensive pistol adage that says most defensive pistol gunfights occur within 3 yards in less than 3 seconds and 3 shots. Or something similar.
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jabberwalkie09
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In reply to dr_boogs • 3:51p, 1/2/20
AG
dr_boogs said:
I think I remember an old defensive pistol adage that says most defensive pistol gunfights occur within 3 yards in less than 3 seconds and 3 shots. Or something similar.

I actually think that's right. I know I said yards, but maybe it was 7-10 feet instead.
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cledus6150
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3:59p, 1/2/20
AG
Im sure you have mentioned before, but are there any App's you recommend for timers?
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BenderRodriguez
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In reply to A New Hope • 4:05p, 1/2/20
AG
Fedup said:
Apologize for my innocence. But 25 yards seems like a long way with a handgun. From a self defense standpoint, isn't that a distance you won't ever be shooting?

You're right. 25 yards is a long way with a handgun.

First thing to address is the difference between drills/skill building and self defense scenario training. This is not a self defense/use of force scenario. This is a drill that is testing technique. Specifically, drawing from concealment, obtaining a good sight picture, and maintaining good sight alignment through a trigger press....all under a time constraint.

You're not hitting a ~5.5" target at 25 yards from concealment in under 3.5 seconds unless all of your fundamental skills are well developed and being used properly. If you have a slow draw, if you struggle to press the trigger quickly without throwing off your sight alignment, if your presentation is slow...you're going to fail. Any sloppiness will show up on the target. That's why its so small and so far away. A big target close up hides a lot of poor technique. If we did the same drill with the same time constraints at 10 yards on a 12" by 24" target, you could get really sloppy with your trigger pull and still "pass".

It's a damned hard drill. What I'm hoping people will find out with this drill is what part of their draw/presentation to work on. If the timer goes off and you just finished the draw, you know that your draw could use work. If you get the shot off in plenty of time but it's on the outside of the 7 ring, you know your trigger press at speed needs to be practiced.

Athletes do more than just scrimmage for every practice. Drills like this aren't meant to replicate self defense scenarios, but to test fundamental skills that may be useful in a self defense situation.
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Aggietaco
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4:15p, 1/2/20
AG
Thanks for continuing to post these. I value some of the commentary even though I've never participated.

Since I let my rifle club membership lapse and live in the City, I don't have a good place to do these drills, but I hope to participate at some point.
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BenderRodriguez
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In reply to dr_boogs • 4:15p, 1/2/20
AG
dr_boogs said:
I think I remember an old defensive pistol adage that says most defensive pistol gunfights occur within 3 yards in less than 3 seconds and 3 shots. Or something similar.

That was based on a study of NYPD shootings from the 1970s, so it's not exactly the most current or valid data set for someone with a CHL, imo.

Even if we had incredibly up to date, perfect data on every time someone used a gun to defend themselves, I don't like "averages". I'd hate to train to the average, and find myself in a non average situation.

Speaking of averages....for drills like this, I hope people don't compare themselves and how they shoot to anyone else's results. That's not the point of these threads, and it's irrelevant how someone else does anyway. The only point is to give folks new drills/targets to shoot, for their own improvement.

Happy shooting.

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BenderRodriguez
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In reply to jabberwalkie09 • 4:18p, 1/2/20
AG
jabberwalkie09 said:
Fedup said:
Apologize for my innocence. But 25 yards seems like a long way with a handgun. From a self defense standpoint, isn't that a distance you won't ever be shooting?

I get what Bender is going for here, basically modeling it after Jack Wilson from White Settlement. Sure this is much further than what most people shot normally, but there's always a chance that you might need to make a shot at.

But yes, from a normal self defense stand point I believe you're looking more at 7-10 yards.

Even his shot looked to be 12-15 yards.

But his was against a moving target trying to kill people he cared about, which ups the difficulty significantly.

But here's the thing..no one performs as well in a situation like that as they do at the range. So if we can increase the difficulty of what we do at the range, we hopefully also improve our performance if the worst case scenario happens. That's why I like hard drills.
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BenderRodriguez
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In reply to jabberwalkie09 • 4:19p, 1/2/20
AG
jabberwalkie09 said:
Bender, is this the target you're using?

Official NRA Target B8C- 25 Yard Slow Fire Center- 10.5" x 10.5" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ICSJNL8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_eLLdEbZ6WWBPC

Looks correct. Black scoring zone should be ~5.4"
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BenderRodriguez
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In reply to cledus6150 • 4:20p, 1/2/20
AG
cledus6150 said:
Im sure you have mentioned before, but are there any App's you recommend for timers?

I use stand alone shot timers, so I honestly don't know. I think someone in the original thread had mentioned using one that worked okay for them, hopefully they see this and chime in. Sorry.
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BenderRodriguez
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In reply to Aggietaco • 4:22p, 1/2/20
AG
Aggietaco said:
Thanks for continuing to post these. I value some of the commentary even though I've never participated.

Since I let my rifle club membership lapse and live in the City, I don't have a good place to do these drills, but I hope to participate at some point.

Hope you can find a place to shoot, I know it can be difficult...especially to do anything actually worth doing with a handgun.

I'm beyond spoiled to have the place I do to shoot. If/when we move I really hope I can find something even remotely half as good.
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maverick2076
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In reply to dr_boogs • 6:06p, 1/2/20
dr_boogs said:
I think I remember an old defensive pistol adage that says most defensive pistol gunfights occur within 3 yards in less than 3 seconds and 3 shots. Or something similar.


Rob Pincus states in his training that over 80% of self defense shootings occur from 5-8 yards and involve 8 shots or less. Not sure where he gets that data from, but it sounds believable and looks that way from the majority of shootings I see on video.
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cupofjoe04
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In reply to BenderRodriguez • 9:24a, 1/3/20
AG
BenderRodriguez said:

Another mental tip I got from Pat McNamara about shooting B8s at distance: we tend to look at where we don't want the hit to land. If you're going to focus/worry about not hitting the white....you're going to smack it in the white over and over again. Stop worrying about the outcome of the shot, and focus on a good performance to make the shot. Good sight alignment, good trigger press, and the shot will go where it needs to. Performance over outcome.


Excellent stuff right here. Thanks for sharing- & for challenging us.

If I can find a decent spot in the snow, I plan on participating this month. What you are paying homage to with this month's drill is A+ on the money for me- this is a scenario I have to place myself in at least 2X per week, 50 weeks every year. I have been trying to think of a way to drill the pressure, dynamic environment, and narrow windows that exist in a church. This drill is a step in the right direction.
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cupofjoe04
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In reply to maverick2076 • 9:32a, 1/3/20
AG
maverick2076 said:
dr_boogs said:
I think I remember an old defensive pistol adage that says most defensive pistol gunfights occur within 3 yards in less than 3 seconds and 3 shots. Or something similar.


Rob Pincus states in his training that over 80% of self defense shootings occur from 5-8 yards and involve 8 shots or less. Not sure where he gets that data from, but it sounds believable and looks that way from the majority of shootings I see on video.


I think this is true as well. But, many of us have specific circumstances/environments we are in consistently, which put us at great odds of being outside of the statistical norms.

In my line of work, I am much more likely to be forced to engage a shooter at range than close- and there is a high Probability that any active shooter would be targeting many people and not just me (as opposed to a home invasion or mugging). That's not to say I will ignore more traditional situations. But given my realities, I am going to alter what I carry, how I conceal, and MOST importantly how I train.

Each of us must consider our patterns and most common environments. These situations should drive part of how you train.
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maverick2076
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In reply to cupofjoe04 • 8:42p, 1/3/20
Absolutely! You most definitely have to train for your reality. I see lots of people train one handed shooting, weak hand shooting, one hand reloads, etc. How many of them have trained drawing from behind a desk, or seated in a car?
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dubi
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In reply to DatTallArchitect • 9:14p, 1/3/20
AG
DatTallArchitect said:
CT'97 said:
Printable B8 center

?v=1523301965
what size of sheet do you print that on?
3' x 3'
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BenderRodriguez
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In reply to cupofjoe04 • 9:42p, 1/3/20
AG
cupofjoe04 said:

I think this is true as well. But, many of us have specific circumstances/environments we are in consistently, which put us at great odds of being outside of the statistical norms.

In my line of work, I am much more likely to be forced to engage a shooter at range than close- and there is a high Probability that any active shooter would be targeting many people and not just me (as opposed to a home invasion or mugging). That's not to say I will ignore more traditional situations. But given my realities, I am going to alter what I carry, how I conceal, and MOST importantly how I train.

Each of us must consider our patterns and most common environments. These situations should drive part of how you train.


The beauty of this drill is that it isn't situation or environment specific. If you can hit a 5" target at 25 yards from concealment in less than 4 seconds...you're probably good enough to do anything you may ever need to do with a handgun.

For the folks saying this one is too hard. You're right. It is. I know my own abilities as a shooter and I'm telling you right now, I won't be turning in a 10/10 on this drill. I'll be damn happy if I make it 7/10.

But really, really good pistol shooters (not me) can do this. It's a goal to work toward and a way to measure your current ability. It'd be a fun one to shoot every January just to see if you improved from the year before as a benchmark.

We're all likely going to fail this drill. And that's okay.
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OverSeas AG
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11:09p, 1/3/20
AG
Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess
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cupofjoe04
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In reply to dubi • 11:38p, 1/3/20
AG
dubi said:
DatTallArchitect said:
CT'97 said:
Printable B8 center

?v=1523301965
what size of sheet do you print that on?
3' x 3'


10/10 every time!!!
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cupofjoe04
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In reply to maverick2076 • 11:39p, 1/3/20
AG
maverick2076 said:
Absolutely! You most definitely have to train for your reality. I see lots of people train one handed shooting, weak hand shooting, one hand reloads, etc. How many of them have trained drawing from behind a desk, or seated in a car?


Exactly!
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rfvgy12
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5:10p, 1/4/20
AG



Well that was extremely difficult for me. The first 10 cold I hit the 8 X 11 paper once middle left. Zero on target.

I did the drill 4 more times slowing down a little each time and ended up putting 14 of 50 on paper with two on black.

Observations:
Cleared concealment pretty easily. Just a long shirt over OWB leather holster.
EDC holster and belt performed well. Was able to get a solid grip and clean pull.
Trouble finding front site on my SW Shield in 3.5 seconds. Final rounds about 5 seconds and improved accuracy.
Shots tended to be low and left even when taking more time for trigger pull.
I ran three rounds with 5 shots and a mag change for five more shots. 8 seconds for shot after mag change.

My new Year's resolution is to complete all these training challenges.

More appreciation for Jack Wilson's draw and shot in Ft Worth.
“If one side is protesting racism, then the other side is counter protesting racism.” @thekellenmond
In response to pro Sul Ross statue protesters and fellow Aggies.
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BenderRodriguez
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In reply to rfvgy12 • 7:54a, 1/5/20
AG
With a Shield! Outstanding!

Glad you found some value in this challenge, thanks for sharing.
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cavscout96
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3:10p, 1/6/20
AG
made an adaptation based on what I had available to me at the time.

2.5" steel swinger at 10 yards; 4ft from berm backstop

SIG P238
White Hat MaxTuck IWB (no cover garment)

I did it completely cold and was about 1.5" high and left based on the observed "splash" of the round. 3.8 Secs.

After that, I ran through four 6-7 round mags. some controlled fire, some with quick follow-up shots

4 total hits in 24 shots.

Observations:
  • Damn hard shot
  • I like the tension on the WH holster
  • I like the cant
  • I'm very happy with the belt
  • Although it was daylight, I think the tritium sights made a positive difference. I plinked around with my daughter and her bone-stock 10/22 afterward and did not pick up the front bead nearly as well.


I'm going to try and make it out for 10, totally cold, shots this month on the provided target.

I may go 10 cold on the 238 and 10 on the 1911

--------------------------------

Aside..... both of the men killed at White Settlement were in their mid-60's; Jack Wilson is 71.

I think we owe it to ourselves, those who count on us, and even those who unwittingly benefit from others' preparedness, to train with our weapons, our minds and our bodies to be prepared to act if the need arises.

I am resolving to spend a lot more time on the range, but also a lot more time on my personal fitness as well.

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wreckt01
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12:54p, 1/7/20
My conclusion after running this drill: I can draw and hit at a better distance than I assumed. BUT I am really dang slow.
I hit the paper on all 10, with 5 in the black! That said my average time was 5.2 seconds. I really need to work on acquiring the sight picture a heck of a lot faster.
I used my glock 19 with deltapoint. Tried again with my shield.....that was ugly. ( will try to fix photo later)

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dubi
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In reply to wreckt01 • 1:13p, 1/7/20
AG
wreckt01 said:
My conclusion after running this drill: I can draw and hit at a better distance than I assumed. BUT I am really dang slow.
I hit the paper on all 10, with 5 in the black! That said my average time was 5.2 seconds. I really need to work on acquiring the sight picture a heck of a lot faster.
I used my glock 19 with deltapoint. Tried again with my shield.....that was ugly.

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wreckt01
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1:54p, 1/7/20
Thanks for the assist. Can't get photos to work correctly off my mobile.
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