Amazon basics has a pistol sized lock box that usually runs from $15-20, seriously lock that thing up. Their quick access boxes are like $35

If you have kids you may not be in a situation where you will have both hands to rack the slide. I have had people walk up asking for cash while I was holding one of my kids. I was ready to go with my hand on the grip while you would be ready to throw it since that is all you could do.

AGGIE WH08P said:

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Never said I was.
But I'm guessing you must be.

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Nope. I am, however, a dedicated student. And I've never, not once heard an instructor who has any experience advocate empty chamber carry. That would be what most people might call "a clue".

Here's a great read on the subject from when the moon bats at that school in Austin agreed with you that empty chamber carry was the way to go: https://www.ammoland.com/2016/05/experts-say-ut-austins-empty-chamber-requirement-campus-carry/#axzz63I1JxG9y

A one paragraph summary from someone who is an expert and worth listening to:

" Rehn adds, "I've taken more than 2000 hours of firearms training. In all those courses the instructors advised against carrying a handgun with an empty chamber [emphasis in the original]. Whether the audience is armed citizens or law enforcement officers, empty chamber carry is discouraged because the gun is only going to be used in a last-resort, time-critical situation where the burden of additional time and complex gun manipulations adds risk and decreases the likelihood of a successful defensive gun use. If the attacker is at close range, the additional time and movement is sufficient to provide the attacker the opportunity to take control of the gun, which could be deadly for the permit holder and others."

I get that you think you're doing things a safe way. Respectfully, you don't know what you don't know. Take a class, learn some stuff. Be safer.

Carrying with an empty chamber against the advice of basically every instructor worth a damn over the last few decades in the US is akin to going to flight school and telling instructor pilots with thousands of hours of experience in the cockpit "nah, it's cool. I've been doing this for a couple hundred hours and my way is safer".

So is that an actual rule of carrying at the campus in Austin or was it defeated?

If you are a member of the Israeli Defense Forces then of course you have to carry empty. If you don't practice to their level then you may want to consider one in the chamber.

80sGeorge said:

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If you are a member of the Israeli Defense Forces then of course you have to carry empty. If you don't practice to their level then you may want to consider one in the chamber.

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Aaand, there it is.

First, lets address the historical issues that made Israeli carry a thing in the first place: a conscript army, limited small arms knowledge among said conscripts, a hodge podge of weaponry that necessitated simplifying training to as "dumbed down" a level as possible to work on whatever gun you might get issued. That's why the Israeli military adopted empty chamber carry (a technique that is not an Israeli invention, by the way, but by EW Fairbairn of the Fairbairn Sykes fighting knife fame). Fairbairn proposed empty chamber carry specifically as a safe method for untrained, unskilled people to handle a gun. (which we now know isn't actually safer).

Before adopting a carry method or other technique from a group, we should know the historical reasons for them to use it. I don't "Israeli carry" for the same reason I don't use a retention holster like almost every single cop in America does: because their needs and mine aren't the same. Cops use retention holsters for openly carried handguns and the high probability of them being in very close proximity to people likely to resist arrest. Makes perfect sense for them. I don't use a level 3 retention holster because I carry concealed and won't be forced into a grappling situation with someone I'm trying to arrest.

So, lets ask some basic questions about "israeli carry". Are you a drafted conscript in an Army required to carry a gun you're unfamiliar with and not well trained with? No? Then Israeli carry is fixing issues you shouldn't have. You should be trained, and carrying a gun you're familiar with operating proficiently.

To borrow a few more quotes from the article I already linked:

"Pilling continues, "Like the law or not, if statistically you are implementing a carry technique that has the highest potential for negligent discharge"

"These concerns are echoed by former FBI agent Bill Rogers, who states, "This proposed rule does not address the fact that most accidents with pistols happen when loading and unloading the firearm." Rogers also notes the difficult position this policy places license to carry (LTC) holders in, stating, "To cause someone to load a semiautomatic pistol during a life-threatening confrontation will eliminate the possibility of someone being able to defend themselves during many scenarios. Confrontations with civilians and predators happen in close proximity, when time is critical and the use of both hands are not always available."

Even if we discount the issues that arise during actual self defense using a handgun, unloaded guns cause a LOT of accidents. People treat guns they "know" are empty more carelessly than they do a loaded firearm.

Empty chamber carry is not actually safe, it's a safety blanket...and a dangerous one at that.

Good article. Thanks for posting.

Something else worth mention are accidental or negligent discharges. You see it happen time and time again, someone drawing a pistol and accidentally shooting themselves in the leg or even worse, possibly injuring someone else. like that dude in the FBI video previously posted. No, I'm not saying that should be the main reason someone doesn't carry with one chambered, but just pointing out the fact that these trained professional/experts with thousands of hours or training even have accidental discharges. Only some make it on camera, who knows how many other accidental discharges occur on the range when no one is looking!

Lets say you carry every day. 365 days a year. You put your holster on and off 2x per day (morning and night). That means, you are physically touching your weapon 730 times a year assuming you never touch it at work and only once when you get home to disarm yourself. That comes out to 7,300 touches in a 10 year period. It would take 13.69 years to get you to 10,000 touches. I know there is no way to find out what someones chances are for accidental/negligent discharge, but you'd think after handling your loaded weapon for 10,000 times, there *might* be a 0.001% chance of it happening.

Here is an interesting article about negligent discharges. Higher probability of them happening at home and 2/3rd of the time it is done by an adult.

https://www.concealedcarry.com/safety/300-negligent-discharges-comprehensive-data-science-reveals-gun-grabbers-and-gun-owners-are-both-wrong/

Quote:

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In the 300 news stories that are part of our study, nearly 48% of the time a negligent discharge injured or killed someone OTHER than the person holding the firearm.

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Quote:

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About 2/3 of incidents were caused by an adult directly. Excuses range across the board; the most popular being that "the gun went off by itself." Sadly, in about 30% of incidents a minor under the age of 18 discharged the gun.

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maverick2076 said:

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Quote:

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When I was 5 years old my dad sold his pistols. He sold them because he caught me climbing to the top shelf of his closet to get one, even though they were hidden from me and I wasn't supposed to know where they were. I wanted to shoot my older sister because she was mean to me.

Get a safe.

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I can't believe how many people think kids can't climb and aren't curious what's "up there." They were built to climb.

When it comes down to it, YOU do not get to decide when & where you will have to defend yourself with your gun, if you carry. Someone else is going to make that decision for you and they will not let you know ahead of time. You can be assured that their gun will be chambered and off safe already. Or if their choose to use a knife, it won't be in a sheath on their belt, it will be in their hand. Chambering a round only when you think you might need it is the same as having a switch in your car that you flip when you think you are going to be involved in an accident.

FSGuide said:

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When it comes down to it, YOU do not get to decide when & where you will have to defend yourself with your gun, if you carry. Someone else is going to make that decision for you and they will not let you know ahead of time.

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That's not true. AGGIE WH08P has told us the only time bad things can happen:

Quote:

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odd hours of the night and stopped for gas and went ahead and load my pistol. Simply because I knew I was in a shady part of town.

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If you stay out of the bad parts of town, and only get gas during the day, you're safe.

Naveronski said:

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If you stay out of the bad parts of town, and only get gas during the day, you're safe.

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I don't know man, I almost had to draw down on this soccer mom at the tower point HEB one time. We just play it safe though and as a general rule, we don't go to Bryan.

AGGIE WH08P said:

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No, I'm not saying that should be the main reason someone doesn't carry with one chambered, but just pointing out the fact that these trained professional/experts with thousands of hours or training even have accidental discharges. Only some make it on camera, who knows how many other accidental discharges occur on the range when no one is looking!

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Most of them don't have all that much training, hate to burst your bubble that they are all ex Seals or Special Forces guys. They aren't. Most do the absolute bare minimum to keep their qualifications up and no more than that, which isn't much at all.

I'm sure that is true. That's still way more training than the average concealed handgun carrier.

So a couple thoughts:

A) though the prices have become rather high, a P7 is designed to ensure young kids can not operate it.

Most double action revolvers/DASA guns would also be hard for a young child and could still be chambered.

B) If anything, I'm more concerned about chambered long guns in a wreck - and not the kind of weapon where instant access is required.

I actually think there isn't enough attention paid to how to carry/holster design/safety of a gun in a wreck.

My instinct is that appendix carry could go very poorly.

Bradley.Kohr.II said:

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So a couple thoughts:

A) though the prices have become rather high, a P7 is designed to ensure young kids can not operate it.

Most double action revolvers/DASA guns would also be hard for a young child and could still be chambered.

B) If anything, I'm more concerned about chambered long guns in a wreck - and not the kind of weapon where instant access is required.

I actually think there isn't enough attention paid to how to carry/holster design/safety of a gun in a wreck.

My instinct is that appendix carry could go very poorly.

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So you think the an appendix carry handgun will discharge in a wreck? I think it will not.

For a long gun like an AR, I'd have a round chambered and the safety on. Those are very easy to disengage the safety unlike some handguns.

FSGuide said:

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When it comes down to it, YOU do not get to decide when & where you will have to defend yourself with your gun, if you carry. Someone else is going to make that decision for you and they will not let you know ahead of time. You can be assured that their gun will be chambered and off safe already. Or if their choose to use a knife, it won't be in a sheath on their belt, it will be in their hand. Chambering a round only when you think you might need it is the same as having a switch in your car that you flip when you think you are going to be involved in an accident.

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this is why the whole "loaded/not loaded" argument is silly. Unless you are walking around with gun in hand and pointing it at every person you encounter, you arent doing everything possible to get the drop on a possible assailant. Just by carrying a gun you are doing more than probably 90% of people so why quibble over the few seconds it takes to chamber a round?

Walt Luddiger said:

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Just by carrying a gun you are doing more than probably 90% of people so why quibble over the few seconds it takes to chamber a round?

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Why quibble? Because of the video in post #1

The average CHL encounter is approx 2-6' (I cant remember the exact figure). You would be lucky to unholster your weapon and get off one shot. Don't complicate it by being forced to chamber a round which requires 2 hands. Simply drawing and shooting only requires 1 hand.

I intend to be the victor in an encounter with a bad guy. That means the gun is chambered and hot.

okay, but when in areas where carrying isnt allowed, do you walk around with your fists balled and arm half cocked as well?

Walt Luddiger said:

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okay, but when in areas where carrying isnt allowed, do you walk around with your fists balled and arm half cocked as well?

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Congrats. After multiple threads on this topic you've managed to post the worst rationale I've ever seen for empty chamber carry.

To me you should do what you're comfortable with. No one should carry with one in the chamber if they feel uncomfortable with it. Something bad is bound to happen. To me the focus of this thread shouldn't be you're wrong if you dont carry with one in the chamber, but maybe how to become more comfortable carrying with one chambered.

I admit, it was a while before I carried with one in the chamber. It made me nervous. The more I carried and got used to it the more comfortable I became carrying with one in the chamber.

Walt Luddiger said:

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okay, but when in areas where carrying isnt allowed, do you walk around with your fists balled and arm half cocked as well?

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I carry a switchblade!

Man, what happened to common sense.

AGGIE WH08P said:

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Here is an interesting article about negligent discharges. Higher probability of them happening at home and 2/3rd of the time it is done by an adult.

https://www.concealedcarry.com/safety/300-negligent-discharges-comprehensive-data-science-reveals-gun-grabbers-and-gun-owners-are-both-wrong/

Quote:

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In the 300 news stories that are part of our study, nearly 48% of the time a negligent discharge injured or killed someone OTHER than the person holding the firearm.

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Quote:

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About 2/3 of incidents were caused by an adult directly. Excuses range across the board; the most popular being that "the gun went off by itself." Sadly, in about 30% of incidents a minor under the age of 18 discharged the gun.

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48% of the time in that article a ND hit someone else.

How many of you go around intentionally pointing loaded guns at friends and family at home? No one? Bueller? Of course not. I guarantee you every persons first thought after that horrible moment was "I thought the gun was unloaded". People do careless things with "unloaded" guns.

Time and time again people that carry with an empty chamber mention that they feel safer doing it that way. I get it. Sadly, feeling safe and actually being safe are two very different things.

I never point my carry gun at anything in my house but the floor and the back wall of my bedroom. When I handle my carry gun at home, it goes from my belt to the lockbox in my nightstand and back, in the holster and pointed in a safe direction the entire time. I never pull the trigger, practice anything with it, etc. On my belt, or in the lock box. That's it. Why? Because I know I'm dealing with a loaded gun, and treat it accordingly.

You've specifically mentioned chambering a round at times you felt it necessary in your carry gun when out and about. The problem with occasionally doing it is that your base level expectation of your gun is an empty chamber. That sets up a very critical and potential failure point: a time when you think your gun is in condition 3, but is actually in condition 1.

Let's set up a hypothetical. You go somewhere you'd feel more comfortable with a round in the chamber, so you do so. (Reholstering in a car is a very easy way to have a ND, by the way.). After you chamber a round, you're heading back to the car and planning on going back to condition 3 before you carry on with your day. But the wife calls: a pipe is leaking at home, baby needs diapers, she got fired. Pick your distraction. You forget to go back to condition 3 when you get back to the car because you are on the phone with your crying wife. You get home after a crazy hectic day, stressed and tired.

Which of us is more likely to handle our carry gun in an unsafe manner in that situation: Me, who knows my carry gun is always chambered, or you, whose gun is also chambered that day....but usually isn't?

There is nothing more dangerous in the world than a gun someone KNOWS is empty...when it isn't.

Bradley.Kohr.II said:

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So a couple thoughts:

A) though the prices have become rather high, a P7 is designed to ensure young kids can not operate it.

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Shush. These things are hard enough to find without more people wanting one. I finally picked one up for me recently and the process have just gotten full stupid on them. Would like to find another one without paying even dumber prices for them

Still kicking myself for not picking up the M13 I saw for sale back in '11 or so. Think the sticker was $800?

Idiot.

BenderRodriguez said:

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Still kicking myself for not picking up the M13 I saw for sale back in '11 or so. Think the sticker was $800?

Idiot.

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One of the few guns in the store I ever regretted selling went to a Texags poster. It was a p7 that was hard chromed. A couple months ago, one came in with the box and everything, it came straight home with me.

Lot of gun snobs on here telling people how they should use/carry their firearms. If he doesn't want to have one chambered why does that bother y'all so much? We are all in the same team.

We are on the same team.

I had no idea it was snobby to encourage someone to be safer, better trained/educated and more responsible.

BenderRodriguez said:

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Which of us is more likely to handle our carry gun in an unsafe manner in that situation: Me, who knows my carry gun is always chambered, or you, whose gun is also chambered that day....but usually isn't?

There is nothing more dangerous in the world than a gun someone KNOWS is empty...when it isn't.

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First rule of gun safety: Every firearm is to be treated as if it were loaded. My routine is similar to yours (minus the lock box). It's always treated as if it were loaded no mater the situation. Like one of my favorite signature lines here on TA "Gun safety is no accident"

Just cause mine is usually unloaded, doesn't mean I will treat it so. Whether loaded or unloaded, it will ALWAYS be treated as a hot firearm.

If you have children with you and need to draw I would almost guarantee you won't have two hands free to operate you gun.

A few years ago I had my 2 kids with me and was approached in the Lowe's parking lot. It is the only time I have ever thought I was going to have to draw and thankfully I saw the guy coming and was able to uncover while my 3yo was in my arm, but there was no way I could have operated a slide.

Most people don't think about their hands being full, but I think it is the case in a lot of these incidents.

Just something to think about.

AggieGunslinger said:

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If you have children with you and need to draw I would almost guarantee you won't have two hands free to operate you gun.

A few years ago I had my 2 kids with me and was approached in the Lowe's parking lot. It is the only time I have ever thought I was going to have to draw and thankfully I saw the guy coming and was able to uncover while my 3yo was in my arm, but there was no way I could have operated a slide.

Most people don't think about their hands being full, but I think it is the case in a lot of these incidents.

Just something to think about.

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Even after well over a decade of daily carry, I STILL have to consciously remind myself to have my right hand free at all times if at all possible. Just can't seem to get it into muscle memory to have my grocery bags in left hand by the time I leave a store. I have to correct myself sometimes in the parking lot.

Seconds matter in life. And in self defense, fractions of seconds count. You either believe that and train accordingly, or you don't. It's a personal choice and one I dont get too worked up over if someone does it differently than me.

No, I think the seatbelt tensioner and the airbag might cause issues when they drive the hard object with sharp edges into you

This will sound a bit nuts, and it helps if you are cross dominant, but what about carrying on your non-dominant side?

It's not that hard, especially if you have access to a 22, to learn to draw and fire with the weak hand.

And, left handed draw is easier in a car, if you are in the US

My entire family was LEO's for a combined 105 years of experience. My uncle carried a 1911 cocked and chambered and holstered with a leather tab holding the hammer while in the holster but safety off. My dad carried the same weapon but safety on. They argued about those two methods for years. I carry a Sig with a de-cock. So chambered but double action on first round. I feel safe with that, but I practice at least once a month drawing and firing to keep proficient.
Attorneys that my dad knew who handled lots of firearm cases said that it was a hard defense on a LTC case if the LTC holder had an accident with a gun that he knowingly did not utilize the safety device of said weapon.
IMHO its up to the individual on how he wants to carry, in battery or not, on safe or not, empty chamber or not...............but become efficient and practice at least monthly on using your firearm the way you intend to carry it. If you ever really need it...........you wont have the time to "think it all through"...it has to be natural and second nature and the only way to get proficient is to train often. The time to learn is not when you are out with your wife for an evening and a thug gets in your face.....only training and practice will save you then.
We do a lot of LTC courses at our ranch. The one thing our instructor drives home is that getting the LTC is THE BEGINNING of your responsibility to become proficient with your weapon. He stresses it is a lot more than just feeling cool that you are packing heat......and that "feeling cool cause I have my gun" can get you dead real quick if you don't continue to regularly practice with it.

I get the impression that discussing the pros/cons of gun mods...the likes of Fitz, Charles Askins, Harrison Hamer, MTGonzaullas, pinned safeties, etc....might cause some here to melt down in a handwringing pool.

So I won't bring any of that up.

I took a home invasion training class a couple of months ago from an instructor that is all in on the Israeli method of carry as well as Hagenah martial arts. Now, as anyone should, when I took the class I was the quiet student and I was respectful. It did have some good points on doorways, going around corners etc. That said though, their information on empty carry was dated, at best.

However, it was clear to me that the two instructors, one was quite a bit younger, did not know their history on the reasons why Israel carries the way that they do. Please read the actual history Israel arming themselves post WWII if you believe that their reason has any basis in tactics that are relevant in the United States today.

It has/had nothing to do with better tactics, it had everything to do with the fact that they were arming themselves with whatever weapons that they could scavenge and the best policy, at the time, was for everyone to be on the same page with a carry method. The modern weapons that we carry today are infinitely safer than some of what they had back then, so there is no reason not to carry with one in the chamber.

Add to that, Israel does not have our level of street crime, not even close. They do have terrorism but not street gangs/armed robbery/murder rate, so they do not have nearly the occasion for an officer to draw a weapon and shoot a perp. When that does happen, the round needs to have been in the chamber yesterday, not in the future.