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Lt. Gov. Patrick announces plans to "defy the NRA"

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TheEyeGuy
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3:59p, 9/8/19
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And Jon snow, I'm not singling you out or directing that post at you, just picking up on that one point and expanding on it.
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hillcountryag86
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In reply to 91AggieLawyer • 7:23p, 9/8/19
AG
91AggieLawyer said:
Alta said:
Laws don't prevent people from committing crimes but allows for consequences when a crime is committed and to hopefully deter some crimes from being committed. Murder is illegal but people still do it. I bet we would have more murders if it wasn't against the law though.

I never understand this line of reasoning from our side.

Deterrence does work in many cases, but not usually with gun laws. The reason? Because, as I stated, the criminal is going to use the gun in ANOTHER, more serious, crime so why would he be worried about breaking gun laws. If you're hell bent on killing someone, or you are so messed up that anything might set you off, what the hell do you care what it takes to get a weapon? What I don't understand is why you can't see this simple line of reasoning.

If murder wasn't illegal, perhaps we'd have more murders, but we'd also have more of one other thing: self defense killings. So that is, at best, a red herring.

The left, and other pro-gun control individuals, (usually) want strict gun laws but not strict other criminal laws in general. For example, they don't want strict drug laws, and they don't want these laws enforced where they exist. They want cops to stop policing, and oh, by the way, when cops do shoot someone, they don't blame the gun, they blame the cop because the cop is higher on the food chain of hate than the gun is (at least at that moment). Hell, the Obama so-called justice dept. didn't even want to prosecute those that tried to illegally purchase guns. Why? I don't know for sure, but my guess is that many of them were minority.

Add to all this the fact that gun control flat out DOES NOT WORK. We had Columbine during the so-called Assault Weapons ban, committed by 2 under age individuals who also had homemade explosives that, had they gone off, would have doubled or tripled the number killed. I don't even know how many state and federal laws those 2 broke before they stepped foot on campus that morning. Deterrence you say? Please.

I'm sorry, but any so-called conservative that goes along in ANY way with any gun restriction -- regardless of whether you call it common sense or not -- is pandering to the left and the gun control crowd. You are making it easier to them, sooner or later, to destroy the second amendment. What we need is LESS restrictions on guns, not more. We need more education. We need every kid in America trained on guns just like shop class when I was in junior high:

6th grade: gun education; blue guns, how to pick up and hold weapon, simulated aiming
7th grade: non firing model: working the action, aiming and simulated firing
8th grade: single shot range firing; 100% safety REQUIRED

We tell all US gun makers that they need to provide, free of charge, single shot .22 (or other rimfire) rifles to schools as well as non firing models for education purposes. It is amazing that in every other area of our life, people will say that education is the key to overcoming fear, but not with guns; fear is paramount. The left and the anti-gun crowd want everyone to remain fearful so they can reach their ultimate goal -- the elimination of civilian gun ownership.

And any so-called conservative that goes along with this in any way is pissing on the second amendment whether you mean to or not. I'm sorry, but it is absolutely true.


Well thought out and reasonable post
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agsalaska
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In reply to aggiedent • 7:32p, 9/8/19
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aggiedent said:
If you buy a gun at Academy, and you have your LTC, you do not get run through the system. You fill out a form which goes into a store safe, and according to a guy I know who works there, nobody ever looks at those forms.
Nobody ever looks at those forms whether you are called in or not.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
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aggielostinETX
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In reply to agsalaska • 7:51p, 9/8/19
AG
agsalaska said:
aggiedent said:
If you buy a gun at Academy, and you have your LTC, you do not get run through the system. You fill out a form which goes into a store safe, and according to a guy I know who works there, nobody ever looks at those forms.
Nobody ever looks at those forms whether you are called in or not.


Except the ATF.
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agsalaska
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7:56p, 9/8/19
AG
Look, if your goal is to make it harder for people to sell guns to other people, then yes, universal background checks would work. Most people abide by the law. And if I have to do a background check every time I buy a gun from a private citizen then I would. And would that deter some firearm transactions, sure it would. And does a national firearm registry need to exist for it to be enforceable, not really. It would be nearly impossible on guns being traded for a third time, but not before. Anyone with an FFL understands that.

But would it have any impact on the murder by firearm rates in the US? No. 0%. You would be adding another layer of regulations, not unlike the thousands of other regulations that we deal with, on millions of law abiding citizens, so you feel better about yourself. Which in all fairness is the motivation behind a lot of the ridiculous regulations we deal with every day.

Criminals are going to get their guns. And the people supplying criminals with those guns will continue to do so, universal background check or not. It would be another meaningless feel good regulation.

So, if your goal is to make it harder on me, then yes it would work. If your goal is to prevent criminals from accessing firearms, then no, it would not.

The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
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agsalaska
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In reply to aggielostinETX • 7:59p, 9/8/19
AG
Deats said:
agsalaska said:
aggiedent said:
If you buy a gun at Academy, and you have your LTC, you do not get run through the system. You fill out a form which goes into a store safe, and according to a guy I know who works there, nobody ever looks at those forms.
Nobody ever looks at those forms whether you are called in or not.


Except the ATF.
Not really. That is more of an urban myth than reality. Sure, they do when an FFL F's up, but it is far more the exception than the norm.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
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aggielostinETX
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In reply to agsalaska • 8:04p, 9/8/19
AG
agsalaska said:
Deats said:
agsalaska said:
aggiedent said:
If you buy a gun at Academy, and you have your LTC, you do not get run through the system. You fill out a form which goes into a store safe, and according to a guy I know who works there, nobody ever looks at those forms.
Nobody ever looks at those forms whether you are called in or not.


Except the ATF.
Not really. That is more of an urban myth than reality. Sure, they do when an FFL F's up, but it is far more the exception than the norm.


No, it's not. Anytime there's a trace or an audit. 10% are audited every year.
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agsalaska
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In reply to aggielostinETX • 8:12p, 9/8/19
AG
Deats said:
agsalaska said:
Deats said:
agsalaska said:
aggiedent said:
If you buy a gun at Academy, and you have your LTC, you do not get run through the system. You fill out a form which goes into a store safe, and according to a guy I know who works there, nobody ever looks at those forms.
Nobody ever looks at those forms whether you are called in or not.


Except the ATF.
Not really. That is more of an urban myth than reality. Sure, they do when an FFL F's up, but it is far more the exception than the norm.


No, it's not. Anytime there's a trace or an audit. 10% are audited every year.
Those 10% that are audited do not involve matching individuals to specific guns and entering those into a database.

So, your right, I guess, in that they are looked at. But that does not mean they are any more tracked than those that are not looked at. Which I would assume is your point unless I missed something

That is an internet myth.








The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
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aggielostinETX
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8:14p, 9/8/19
AG
That's is correct on an audit.

The biggest issue is that when an FFL closes all 4473s are given to the ATF.
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agsalaska
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In reply to aggielostinETX • 8:27p, 9/8/19
AG
Deats said:
That's is correct on an audit.

The biggest issue is that when an FFL closes all 4473s are given to the ATF.
I am not sure that is an issue. I have been down that road several times and as recently as 2016, and they were calling us for information on documents they had. Of course we could find it faster in our records than they could, because we had the transactions documented in our database. They had 4473 boxed up in a storage unit. So I still do not think that is an issue.

I have been round and round with the ATF for a long time, mostly for the better but at times for the worst. I came to a pretty educated conclusion that after the initial transfer the ATF dont know ****, no matter who they audited or what documents they audited.

The real issues were with Local PDs, but that's a different story.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
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BrazosDog02
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9:25p, 9/8/19
AG
How about we get rid of ALL the background check requirements and make a new law called the "don't be a dip**** initiative". Something like a good faith effort type of law. Make background check access free for joe blow

Now, if you sell John Doe a gun and he shoots uo a school and you made no effort to verify who you sold to, the your ****ed. If you did, then you did and your off the hook. I'm other words, reduce my burden of liability by making it easy for me to check people out.

I'm going to be honest, I only sell guns to people with a CHL because it's the o my way I have to easily somewhat make an effort on Facebook my part to make a good sell. I do believe it is my personal responsibility to know who im selling to. Lots of people don't make that effort and that's on them and I think that's a ****ty way to live life.

It's late, I'm drinking and this sounds ok in my head but I'm sure tomorrow this may not be a great idea but not sure.

I'm not talking about registering guns. I know that makes it unenforceable. But it works for academy. Just talking about making it easier for me, Joe Schmoe, to sell a gun and make myself pretty confident im selling to a stable person and cover my ass if the bill of sale leads back to me.
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Snow Monkey Ambassador
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9:43p, 9/8/19
AG
I always love the threads about gun registration databases and how we can never allow that . . . completely ignoring the fact that it already exists.
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TheEyeGuy
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In reply to Snow Monkey Ambassador • 9:58p, 9/8/19
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Really? What registry is there?
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AGHouston11
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In reply to Snow Monkey Ambassador • 10:55p, 9/8/19
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Snow Monkey Ambassador said:
I always love the threads about gun registration databases and how we can never allow that . . . completely ignoring the fact that it already exists.


That's news? Would love to hear more.
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Snow Monkey Ambassador
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8:00a, 9/9/19
AG
What do y'all think they do with all those Form 4473s and the required log FFLs must keep for 20 years? How do they immediately know whether a gun was purchased legally or not within 24 hours of a shooting? We can pretend that the government doesn't keep a database of gun purchases, but it takes an incredible suspension of disbelief to believe it.
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aggiedent
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8:33a, 9/9/19
AG
I would like to give a little more context to what the manager at Academy said.

We were talking about the electronic system they use to do the background check before firearm purchase. He was talking about the frequency with which the system goes down and how annoying it can be.

My wife had told him she had let her LTC expire a few years ago but was going to take the class this year.

It was then that he said the following, all paraphrased from my memory. That he carried every day. That he thought everyone should have their LTC before buying a firearm. Reason number one being, sometimes the system crashed preventing the sale. Reason number two being, that he "didn't want to be on any lists."

His rationale was that buying a firearm without your LTC put you on a computerized list. But that buying a firearm with the LTC only required filling out a form, that went in a safe, and nobody ever looked at. He said nobody has ever taken, copied, or entered those forms into any database. That every one is still sitting in their safe.

Now, he may very well be an idiot, but since he manages that department, I would think that what he said about the forms is true. That said, I accept he may be FOS.

Anyways, that was the gist of the conversation.
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hillcountryag86
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8:41a, 9/9/19
AG
It's unlikely the 4473's will ever be used by the govt to establish a list. And even though a LTC has to fill out the form, that form, for the most part, stays with the dealer in storage. But, when those forms are used for a background check, information is certainly given to govt, who can create a list.

And, on a couple of occasions, I have had to provide ATF access to my stored 4473's when they are investigating a crime involving a gun.
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In reply to hillcountryag86 • 8:49a, 9/9/19
AG
hillcountryag86 said:
It's unlikely the 4473's will ever be used by the govt to establish a list. And even though a LTC has to fill out the form, that form, for the most part, stays with the dealer in storage. But, when those forms are used for a background check, information is certainly given to govt, who can create a list.

And, on a couple of occasions, I have had to provide ATF access to my stored 4473's when they are investigating a crime involving a gun.
And if they ever decide to make owning a gun a crime . . . well, there you have it.

Governments don't collect this kind of information and not use it to do whatever they hell they want. Making owning a gun a crime will be the pretext, and the information already exists. All of the gnashing of teeth over the idea of a database of gun owners is, I'm sure, highly amusing to the feds.
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hillcountryag86
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In reply to Snow Monkey Ambassador • 9:05a, 9/9/19
AG
I agree. And I should have added that, although 4473's are stored by the dealer, that information is always available if the govt wants it. Even for LTC's who don't go thru a check.

It's interesting that people want Big Brother involved to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. But if a law is passed requiring checks on personal sales, it will only encourage good guys to to continue to buy / sell guns on the black market to keep from getting on a list.

I certainly know nearly all gun owners are already on a list - either thru the LTC application process, or they have purchased from a dealer and gone thru a check.

But most still want to minimize even more exposure to govt.
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TheEyeGuy
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In reply to Snow Monkey Ambassador • 9:08a, 9/9/19
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Snow Monkey Ambassador said:
What do y'all think they do with all those Form 4473s and the required log FFLs must keep for 20 years? How do they immediately know whether a gun was purchased legally or not within 24 hours of a shooting? We can pretend that the government doesn't keep a database of gun purchases, but it takes an incredible suspension of disbelief to believe it.
They run a trace, it's not in a database. They call the manufacturer and see who the manufacturer sold it to. Thy call the entity on the list and so on and so on.

I get a trace call every other month or so. That's how they know. And I can personally tell you that they have NO IDEA what everyone has because the system is set up so that they can't know. When someone fills out a 4473, we run the background check BEFORE entering in the firearm information. The only reason they know to call us is because they called Glock and Glock said "nope, this gun isn't in our records call this distributor..." they call the distributor and they see its not in their inventory so they say "nope, it's not in our inventory, call this dude." Then they call me and I have to look up who I sold the gun to and send them that info.
Owner of Texian Firearms:
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US importer/distributor of Rudolph Optics
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In reply to TheEyeGuy • 9:12a, 9/9/19
AG
TheEyeGuy said:
Snow Monkey Ambassador said:
What do y'all think they do with all those Form 4473s and the required log FFLs must keep for 20 years? How do they immediately know whether a gun was purchased legally or not within 24 hours of a shooting? We can pretend that the government doesn't keep a database of gun purchases, but it takes an incredible suspension of disbelief to believe it.
They run a trace, it's not in a database. They call the manufacturer and see who the manufacturer sold it to. Thy call the entity on the list and so on and so on.

I get a trace call every other month or so. That's how they know. And I can personally tell you that they have NO IDEA what everyone has because the system is set up so that they can't know. When someone fills out a 4473, we run the background check BEFORE entering in the firearm information. The only reason they know to call us is because they called Glock and Glock said "nope, this gun isn't in our records call this distributor..." they call the distributor and they see its not in their inventory so they say "nope, it's not in our inventory, call this dude." Then they call me and I have to look up who I sold the gun to and send them that info.
So you're saying they don't have a database, they just use a database(s) housed elsewhere to find out who has what gun in a few hours - at most? Even if we take all of this as being true - and, again, show me one instance of a government having access to this kind of information and not misusing it - how is this a different result than them having a database? I'll hang up and listen . . .
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OldCamp
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9:40a, 9/9/19
Quote:
The left, and other pro-gun control individuals, (usually) want strict gun laws but not strict other criminal laws in general. For example, they don't want strict drug laws, and they don't want these laws enforced where they exist.
This always bothers me. People will jump on guns, but ignore other dangerous things like alcohol. Each year over 10,000 people die from drunk driving and another 70,000+ die from other alcohol related causes. Over 10% of children live with a parent that has alcohol problems.
We are all far more likely to be harmed by alcohol use than a gun use, but there is no outrage over this. No one is calling for tighter restrictions on alcohol sales and availability. No Hollywood stars or politicians are making a stand against alcohol. People aren't posting anti -alcohol statements on facebook or twitter.

Now.....I'm not calling for increased regulation of alcohol, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of many liberals. The current anti gun movement is nothing more than identity politics and has nothing to do with protecting or preserving life.

Next time an anti-gun person brings up gun laws, ask them about their opinion on the current state of alcohol regulation. It usually derails the conversation pretty quickly.
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agsalaska
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In reply to Snow Monkey Ambassador • 9:58a, 9/9/19
AG
Snow Monkey Ambassador said:
TheEyeGuy said:
Snow Monkey Ambassador said:
What do y'all think they do with all those Form 4473s and the required log FFLs must keep for 20 years? How do they immediately know whether a gun was purchased legally or not within 24 hours of a shooting? We can pretend that the government doesn't keep a database of gun purchases, but it takes an incredible suspension of disbelief to believe it.
They run a trace, it's not in a database. They call the manufacturer and see who the manufacturer sold it to. Thy call the entity on the list and so on and so on.

I get a trace call every other month or so. That's how they know. And I can personally tell you that they have NO IDEA what everyone has because the system is set up so that they can't know. When someone fills out a 4473, we run the background check BEFORE entering in the firearm information. The only reason they know to call us is because they called Glock and Glock said "nope, this gun isn't in our records call this distributor..." they call the distributor and they see its not in their inventory so they say "nope, it's not in our inventory, call this dude." Then they call me and I have to look up who I sold the gun to and send them that info.
So you're saying they don't have a database, they just use a database(s) housed elsewhere to find out who has what gun in a few hours - at most? Even if we take all of this as being true - and, again, show me one instance of a government having access to this kind of information and not misusing it - how is this a different result than them having a database? I'll hang up and listen . . .
You can think whatever you want. Just know that they do not have a database. EyeGuy explained pretty well how it works. I have been thru many of them. They do not have a clue.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
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aggiedent
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In reply to Snow Monkey Ambassador • 9:58a, 9/9/19
AG
Well..............it's different...........because they clearly don't have a data base as you implied.

If you can't see the difference between what you implied and what eye guy is telling you, you're just refusing to see the difference.
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Alta
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In reply to OldCamp • 10:16a, 9/9/19
AG
I had this conversation with a buddy last week. Things I actually worry about at night for my children usually center around people texting and driving, drinking and driving, etc.

I don't worry about them being shot in a mass shooting which is what triggers all of these calls to action.
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TheEyeGuy
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In reply to Snow Monkey Ambassador • 10:26a, 9/9/19
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Snow Monkey Ambassador said:
TheEyeGuy said:
Snow Monkey Ambassador said:
What do y'all think they do with all those Form 4473s and the required log FFLs must keep for 20 years? How do they immediately know whether a gun was purchased legally or not within 24 hours of a shooting? We can pretend that the government doesn't keep a database of gun purchases, but it takes an incredible suspension of disbelief to believe it.
They run a trace, it's not in a database. They call the manufacturer and see who the manufacturer sold it to. Thy call the entity on the list and so on and so on.

I get a trace call every other month or so. That's how they know. And I can personally tell you that they have NO IDEA what everyone has because the system is set up so that they can't know. When someone fills out a 4473, we run the background check BEFORE entering in the firearm information. The only reason they know to call us is because they called Glock and Glock said "nope, this gun isn't in our records call this distributor..." they call the distributor and they see its not in their inventory so they say "nope, it's not in our inventory, call this dude." Then they call me and I have to look up who I sold the gun to and send them that info.
So you're saying they don't have a database, they just use a database(s) housed elsewhere to find out who has what gun in a few hours - at most? Even if we take all of this as being true - and, again, show me one instance of a government having access to this kind of information and not misusing it - how is this a different result than them having a database? I'll hang up and listen . . .
First off, they literally don't know what you or anyone else has. At most, they have a list of who has had background checks run on them, but even that is supposed to be deleted every 48 hours. And with some of the interactions that I've had with the FBI on this, I am pretty certain they do.

Look, you can be paranoid about the NICS system if you want, and I won't blame you. The government doesn't have a good track record on this kind of stuff. And the safe approach is to assume that they do. However, I can assure you that they are not actively archiving information on this. There is no way for them to do so. Like I said, even with those of us running electronic systems, we don't add in the firearm info until AFTER they give us the proceed on a check. So, it isn't sent into them.

Yeah, if you want to look at it as they have a database of databases they can search, sure, that kind of exists. However, I can also tell you they don't randomly start pulling info from it, nor do they have ready access to it. During an audit even, they don't take down a lot of info. They spot check you on a few things but otherwise, they just look through them to make sure they are filled out correctly. And, if they all of a sudden decided to require every FFL out there to send them information on every gun buyer out there... well, I have a feeling the rate of non-compliance would be high. Not saying what I'd do publicly here but let's just say that it's something that I've thought about significantly when I opened the shop.

So, in direct answer to your last question, sure, they can look up stuff like a database. However, it is different than Google searching something as they have to do it in a very very specific manner. Basically, they can't google "Texags" and get everything related to texags. They can only google a specific thread that they have the actual URL to and get the info from that thread. So it's extremely limited.
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hillcountryag86
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In reply to TheEyeGuy • 10:38a, 9/9/19
AG
My audits are either very frustrating or very easy. It depends on the inspector. I've had my wrist slapped for not putting a slash through a zero on the date, SSN, anything which had a zero in the number. He said although there is no requirement for the slash, he counselled me for a minor infraction because it is what, "... he wants to see."

I also had a field director tell me she was going to do everything she could to find something wrong because, in her words, "I don't agree with selling guns and think they should be banned."
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In reply to hillcountryag86 • 10:48a, 9/9/19
AG
hillcountryag86 said:

I also had a field director tell me she was going to do everything she could to find something wrong because, in her words, "I don't agree with selling guns and think they should be banned."
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agsalaska
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In reply to hillcountryag86 • 10:54a, 9/9/19
AG
hillcountryag86 said:
My audits are either very frustrating or very easy. It depends on the inspector. I've had my wrist slapped for not putting a slash through a zero on the date, SSN, anything which had a zero in the number. He said although there is no requirement for the slash, he counselled me for a minor infraction because it is what, "... he wants to see."

I also had a field director tell me she was going to do everything she could to find something wrong because, in her words, "I don't agree with selling guns and think they should be banned."
They can certainly be like that. With regards to the first one, that's pretty typical of any government auditor. The OCCC auditors are the same way. If you think the ATF is bad about things like that, try dealing with the CFPB.

I have heard of people like that in the ATF and have run across a few that seemed pretty anti business, but for the most part the folks I dealt with over the years were OK. We had one flyer out on the west coast for a while but she wasn't around for very long.

If you keep good books and follow the law, the ATF is pretty easy to deal with. There are certainly FAR worse agencies out there. I would much rather deal with the ATF than OSHA, EPA, or CFPB.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
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average_joker
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8:25a, 9/10/19
AG
So when does the recall election start?
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Bradley.Kohr.II
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In reply to TheEyeGuy • 9:10a, 9/10/19
AG
When you call in, you have to file the serial number, right?

Those forms record the serial number as well, I believe.

That has NOTHING to do with whether or not the buyer can legally buy the gun. It serves no purpose, other than to serve as a registry.

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Bradley.Kohr.II
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In reply to Player To Be Named Later • 9:11a, 9/10/19
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Its the only agency which hates the people it regulates.

Well, probably the EPA as well.
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TheEyeGuy
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In reply to Bradley.Kohr.II • 9:14a, 9/10/19
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AG
Bradley.Kohr.II said:
When you call in, you have to file the serial number, right?

Those forms record the serial number as well, I believe.

That has NOTHING to do with whether or not the buyer can legally buy the gun. It serves no purpose, other than to serve as a registry.



Nope. Serial isn't even notated on the form until after we get the proceed
Owner of Texian Firearms:
Dealer in Firearms, Optics, Night Vision and other shooting accessories.
US importer/distributor of Rudolph Optics
Supporting bad financial decisions since 2015
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agsalaska
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In reply to Bradley.Kohr.II • 9:26a, 9/10/19
AG
No. You do not provide the serial number.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
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agsalaska
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In reply to Bradley.Kohr.II • 9:34a, 9/10/19
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Bradley.Kohr.II said:
Its the only agency which hates the people it regulates.

Well, probably the EPA as well.
This I disagree with. Other than one specific person I found the auditors to just be that, auditors. They are not any different than any other government agency. Most of the folks above them in the field offices were typical bureaucrats, mostly pretty smart, very concerned about their pensions and time off, and had some sort of gun hobby. Like I said in an earlier post, the if you keep good books the ATF is really easy to deal with.


I can think of plenty of other agencies that hate who they regulate. The CFPB, OSHA, and the EPA are far more painful than the ATF. They are not even on the same playing field when it comes to *******s.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
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