Never fully trust any animal no matter how domesticated. Pits might be more likely to be aggressive, but never let children be on level with any dog they've never met.

pants said:

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Never fully trust any animal no matter how domesticated. Pits might be more likely to be aggressive, but never let children be on level with any dog they've never met.

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Agreed, I don't leave my kid alone with my dogs or any dogs.

Get an Irish Wolfhound instead of a Pitt if ya wanna be cool

redass1876 said:

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agnerd said:

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HarleySpoon said:

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The "only morons raise bad pit bulls" argument gets old. You could say the same thing about fires during burn bans......"only morons have outdoor burn during a drought." However, there are enough morons out there that we have to ban outdoor burning during droughts to protect third parties even if the majority of folks are not morons.

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The "only morons raise bad pit bulls" argument gets old. You could say the same thing about accidental discharges......"only morons have accidental discharges." However, there are enough morons out there that we have to ban guns to protect third parties even if the majority of folks are not morons.

So you would have no problem banning guns based on the same logic right? They hypocrisy on this board when comparing guns and pitbulls is hilarious!

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jesus, you went full ****** here.

If the gun goes off without human interaction and kills people sometimes, yes ban the **** out of it. If you are going to make the gun comparison, you are then saying that all Pitbull OWNERS should be banned, not the dog

Embarrassed you even have an AgTag with that asinine argument

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If a lab knocks a gun off a table and the gun hits the floor and kills people sometimes, we should ban all guns??? Sorry, gotta disagree:

http://www.gunsmoke.com/guns/colt_all_american.html

My argument is that I think people should be able to have weapons that serve a purpose if they are properly secured and the owner has not previously shown himself to be irresponsible. This includes guns, pit bulls, fireworks, blow torches, and cars. When a person fails to secure their weapons or operate them safely and there's an injury or death, that owner/operator should be held responsible regardless of which weapon was used. I believe that the argument to ban pitbulls is just as valid as the argument to ban semi-auto arms and can easily be used to infringe on the 2nd Amendment. Democrats don't need more ammo in their crusade.

And there's no need to be embarrassed that I have an AgTag. We are allowed to have different opinions and make arguments based on our own individual logic. You effectively stated that "human interaction" is the critical issue for you involving weapons. I effectively stated that "irresponsible ownership" is the critical issue for me involving weapons. I will argue that my opinion does more to protect the 2nd Amendment than yours, but we will probably disagree on that too. Regardless, my argument is no more asinine than yours, which is why he have politics/debate to decide these kinds of issues.

Exactly. The whole post was strange. Why Do you want a dog that is volatile to the point you have to babysit it all the time?

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** and no, that's not me... that's my neighbor posing with my dog for an adoption calendar. **

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Are pics 1 and 2 the same person?

Hoss said:

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John Cocktolstoy said:

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I could raise a lab to do the same thing that pit did, and could raise a pit to be as gentle as a lab.

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No, you couldn't. These dogs have an internal switch that makes them go from sweet to killer in an instant. I've seen it first hand. Yes, bad owners are partly to blame, but it's not just coincidence that these violent attacks like this most often occur with pits.

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X2 I've witnessed it first hand and I've never seen it from another breed. At least Chihuahuas are mean all the time so you know to keep your distance.

So tired of the "how their raised" argument. They were bred to have an instinct to kill and that's what they do when they are triggered. Doesn't matter how they were raised.

rlb28 said:

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Exactly. The whole post was strange. Why Do you want a dog that is volatile to the point you have to babysit it all the time?

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Is it my post that you're referring to? Did you not read the follow up where I specifically answer the question of why?

We likely have different views on what kind of dogs are right for us, and that's ok. In the end, what difference does it make to anyone else as long as the dog doesn't hurt anyone? Putting a dog on a leash isn't babysitting it, it's being a responsible owner. That goes for many dogs, not just pits.

Potcake said:

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Quote:

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** and no, that's not me... that's my neighbor posing with my dog for an adoption calendar. **

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Are pics 1 and 2 the same person?

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One is male and one is female. The second pic is the calendar shot.

Many of you need to google Texas one bite rule

MouthBQ98 said:

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The notion that the Am Staff was bred to kill is false. That was not what the breed's origins and intent were. Over time, that breeding has been added to the breed's gene pool unfortunately.

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The AKC would disagree with you.....

https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/american-staffordshire-terrier/

"Years ago in Great Britain, several dog breeds were created to excel in blood sports. They were expected to fight one another, or they were turned loose in packs against a staked bear or bull, with spectators betting on the grisly outcome. Such revolting pastimes have long since been outlawed. These sad spectacles did, however, leave us a happy legacy: Several of today's most loved breedsthe Bulldog, the Bull Terrier, and the American Staffordshire Terrier among themgot their start as fighting and baiting dogs of the 18th and 19th centuries."

BlueDeviledAg said:

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Many of you need to google Texas one bite rule

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Already addressed, but welcome to the thread.

mts6175 said:

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MouthBQ98 said:

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The notion that the Am Staff was bred to kill is false. That was not what the breed's origins and intent were. Over time, that breeding has been added to the breed's gene pool unfortunately.

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The AKC would disagree with you.....

https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/american-staffordshire-terrier/

"Years ago in Great Britain, several dog breeds were created to excel in blood sports. They were expected to fight one another, or they were turned loose in packs against a staked bear or bull, with spectators betting on the grisly outcome. Such revolting pastimes have long since been outlawed. These sad spectacles did, however, leave us a happy legacy: Several of today's most loved breedsthe Bulldog, the Bull Terrier, and the American Staffordshire Terrier among themgot their start as fighting and baiting dogs of the 18th and 19th centuries."

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What would the AKC know about it? They're only the experts on dog breeds! Have they even met "the sweetest dog ever"?!?!

Letting a pit off leash near other people (especially children) is attempted murder as far as I'm concerned

ramblin_ag02 said:

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I have family members with pitbulls. The dogs are really sweet around family, but the owners are pretty controlling of people's access to them. For instance, only adults who've been around dogs, know all the behavior cues, and know how not to accidentally antagonize them (like trying to get your face into their face). To me pitbulls are like loaded guns. They can be a lot of fun and provide a layer of security when cared for responsibly, but they are incredibly dangerous when treated carelessly

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If I have to limit access to my dog due to its aggressive breed nature, i wouldnt want to own that breed. Period.

Chances are good that at some point your pit bull will snap and attack your wife or daughter. And then will you be able to live with yourself?

That's a beautiful dog. Different color but face reminds me of my little girl.

Living pit bull = bad pit bull
Dead pit bull = good pit bull

Gramercy Riffs said:

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** and no, that's not me... that's my neighbor posing with my dog for an adoption calendar. **

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I Feel like we are being trolled. Who the hell lets their naked Asian neighbor take a picture with their dog and then wants to show it off to the OB of all places?!?

TxKng82 said:

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That's a beautiful dog. Different color but face reminds me of my little girl.

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Your little girl looks like a pit bull? Yikes! I didn't realize bestiality actually created offspring.

Gramercy Riffs said:

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Edit: wow, this post got long. Sorry about that. Here's the TL/DR version: "It's the owner" is not entirely accurate, but it plays a part. This is a dangerous breed, and not everyone should be able to own one.

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Unless we can enforce some nsurance requirements for owning these dogs and severe penalties when they attack (including prison time for the owners) there's not even a logical debate to be had about this.

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I'm a pitbull owner (AmStaff now, previous dog was pit/lab mix), and I don't think you're too far off with this comment. I've even thought about some kind of license or qualifications to own one, but I can't quite figure out the logistics with that. Someone smarter than me would have to work that stuff out. I think the problem with penalties is that you'd have to have penalties for every dog owner, not just pits. I just don't think those penalties would hold up unless they were given out for every fatal dog attack for every breed. Prison time is a stretch in most cases, but there are stories I read that make me think that's not a terrible idea.

I'll give you the "sweetest dog ever" thing that everyone else says about their pit, but no way would I bet on it 100% of the time. It's a one-strike kind of dog. There are no second chances. If anything were to happen - to another dog, to another animal, or heaven forbid a person, young or old - I'd never be able to live with that. That's true of every medium-to-large breed, but it's the quickness and severity that can be different with these. Someone mentioned earlier that a family member restricts access to their pit, and that's one way to do it. My dog is never outside without her leash. She's never in my fenced backyard without me being right by her side. When we're on our walks, and a neighbor (or their kid) wants to pet her, my arms are wrapped around her while still holding the leash. She does great every time, but we don't get any mulligans if she doesn't.

That's for a 1-year-old AmStaff. Still just a pup, and obviously has never done anything to anyone besides lick them or challenge them to a game of tug. But I can't take any chances. For me, it has nothing to do with money or liability or the dog, it's about everyone else. It's a major responsibility, and it'll only get more serious as she continues to grow. I'm blown away by how strong and how fast she is. It's worth saying again: I've never had a dog with this kind of muscle. Honestly, I'd never be able to get there in time if I weren't constantly on top of her. There's also a constant need for training and reinforcement. Owning this type of dog is a job. I'll never quit doing that job as long as I have her. Not everyone makes that commitment though.

When someone says "it's the owner", it's important to note what they're really saying. Make no mistake about it - it's the breed. It wasn't always that way, but idiots have taken all the good that these dogs were known for and tried to breed it out of their system. Now it's like walking around with a loaded gun that can fire on its own. Good owners carry them safely, while morons juggle them and point them at people. When I say "it's the owner", I'm talking about an owner that has overlooked the risk, even if only for a second or two. I'm not saying the owner trained it to be a killer, I'm saying they let their guard down, and pit owners simply don't have that luxury.

Not everyone should be able to own one of these dogs. That doesn't make them all bad, and that doesn't mean all pit owners are stupid. But it requires your full attention 100% of the time, and it can be a lot of extra effort to make sure everyone is safe. Unfortunately, most "smart" owners usually get safer dogs while the people who can't even manage their own lives are somehow drawn to the idea of having this particular dog. Terrible combination.

My dog is not a weapon, or a tool, or a badge of honor, nor does she earn me any cool points on the street. She's a loving, fun, smart, family pet just like all the labs I had growing up. The difference is that people can get hurt if I ever take a day off. When we blame the owners, we're blaming people who have done just that.

I'm not going to post articles about labs killing kids (they're out there). I'm not going to post articles about pit bulls saving lives (it happens). Only a fool would say these things don't have the potential to be dangerous. But there are good dogs and good owners out there. It's just a matter of taking things seriously and paying attention. Then again, I've done that with every dog I've ever owned.

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WTF is the point of owning an animal like that then?

NM...answered. Terrible answer, but nonetheless, thoroughly answered.

The AKC sometimes gets dramatic with its breed histories as they are provided by the individual breed organizations and a careful research of history and genetic testing has sometimes revealed them as quite fancifully creative promotional propaganda for the breed.

There probably is some substantial truth to these terrier breeds being bred for fighting, now that I look in closer detail but I've heard different histories on the breed origins that were more benign.
I dislike being misinformed so I'll have to do some reading.

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If I have to limit access to my dog due to its aggressive breed nature, i wouldnt want to own that breed. Period.

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I have family with pits. I have a friend with great danes; I have other friends with mastiffs. I grew up with german shepherds and alaskan malamutes. I had in a friend in high school who owned a domesticated bobcat, and I knew several people who had wolf hybrids as pets. I have to even be careful with my dachshund, because he will literally rip a cat to shreds and will attack dogs twice his size. All of these cases involved pets where the owners restrict access to the animal by other people or animals. It's just being a smart owner and knowing your pet. If you can be responsible with your pet, then who cares?

MTS:

Very relevant post, but I think if the "Baiting" period is to be considered then looking further back should be done. "Bull Baiting" was a fairly common practice in England and later the US and Ireland, and in no way limited to Pit type of dogs. Realistically as a full out common popular organized activity it might have lasted 100-150 years or so, give or take and was outlawed around 1840, in reading about the practice it seems that the popularity declined quite a bit. Also, in reading about it the top dogs in the blood sport might have been trained and bred from long lines, but that was a small minority and only the top dogs. Earlier practice of "Bull Baiting" was nowhere near as "scientific" nor organized in the years prior the 17th century when it had it's peak.

Pit's, Bulldogs, and their Terrier variants and mixes had other history for centuries before the "baiting" times.

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We have to look back at their development, through a complex history of selective breeding, to understand this better. Several centuries ago, before the American Pit Bull Terrier was established, bulldog-type dogs were bred as "catch" dogs in England. Historically, bulldog-type dogs were taught to catch and hold loose cattle or pigs until a farmer could come to retrieve them. In these cases, you would not want a dog that would rip, maim, or kill the animal, as these were livestock animals that were considered of high value to the farmer. We actually still see these catching dogs in parts of the southern United States where wild boar hunting is popular. Dogs trained for catching will restrain the boars until a hunter can come in and finish the animal.

It was from this evolution of catch dogs that bull baiting became a popular "sport" in England, which involved setting dogs upon a tethered bull. This was used as a form of entertainment and is considered a blood sport similar to dog fighting. It is said that many of the dogs used in bull baiting were unsuccessful in their matches, often being stomped on or gored to death by the bull. In addition to these bulldog-type dogs, many of the dogs were also just mongrels rounded up in town. Additional breeds that came from bull baiting stock include the boxer, the bull terrier, and the English bulldog, yet these are all breeds generally left out of the dangerous dog conversations.

In the early 1800s, bull baiting was banned in England and lost a lot of popularity. This led to bulldog-type dogs being bred with terrier-type dogs to create a smaller, more agile dog referred to as bull- and terrier-type dogs. As it was easier and cheaper to pit dogs against one anotherthe new blood "sport" of dog fighting was born. These dogs and this "sport" also made their way over and became popular in the United States around this same time.

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https://dog.international/dangerous-dogs-part-2-myths-misconceptions-pit-bull-advocates-opponents/

The author of the above: https://ansc.illinois.edu/profile/sarah-albert-0

What I have come to figure out is that there is lots and lots of contradictory and inflamed/passionate information out there about Pits. Who or what to believe I guess depends on the individual. Before I kept the Pit I have I did a ton of reading and asking, but in the end it was my contact and observation that led me to keep her coupled with what I could garner from neutral documentation.

Ribbed Paultz said:

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Chances are good that at some point your pit bull will snap and attack your wife or daughter. And then will you be able to live with yourself?

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Actually the "chances" are very slim that this would happen and it could happen with any dog.

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Dog bites and attacks are extremely emotional events. They create a sense of panic and trigger an innate fear within usthe fear of becoming prey. This is something we, as a species, are no longer used to. With an estimated 78 million dogs owned in the United States (not counting homeless dogs) plus dogs living in closer proximity to us, both by becoming family pets and through urbanization in general, it appears that dogs are extremely safe overall. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates that around 4.5 million people are bitten by dogs each year (bitten by about 5.8% of dogs) with only around 800,000 of those needing medical attention (bites from about 1% of total dogs), and around 20-30 bites causing death (.000038% of total dogs). These facts surrounding serious dog attacks show exactly why dog attacks make so many headlines, and draw so much heated debate they're rare, fear-inducing, and easily sensationalized. Of course, this is still a very serious topic for us to discuss. We don't want to see anyone being mauled by dogs; children bitten and admitted to hospitals; or dogs euthanized for growling at or biting a person or other animal.

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Further:

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The United States has no central reporting agency to track the number of dog bites across the country. This means that all dog bites are not recorded, and there are various measures of which bites people feel need to be reported. Because of this, many less serious bites often go unreported. This makes determining bite frequency difficult.

To know true bite frequency we would need to know the number of each breed in a community's dog population and compare this to how many of that breed are actually biting. If we were able to get an accurate count of dogs in a community, and dogs of certain breeds, we would then want to compare that frequency to the other dog breeds. Why is this important? Pit bull-type dogs are a very popular type of dog right now. More of them exist in communities, so the likelihood of a bite is higher than with a less popular breed. For example, if we have a dog population of 1,000 and we have 400 pit bull-type dogs and 25 Mastiffs, it makes sense that we would see more pit bull-type dog bites in this community. It would be unfair to look at these as equal populations.

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One of the main reasons I kept the Pit that I did was that an Aggie vet, very well respected, with about 35 years of practicing told me verbatim "You need to keep this dog" after he helped me fix her up.

The article that the above quote is from is from and educator and the reason I cited it on this post and the other one is that it is footnoted with sources. There is a ton of BS out there about how great Pit's are, I realize that and a lot of it is BS. Pit's are high energy high maintenance dogs and it is woefully negligent for someone who does not have the time nor space to keep one. My family has both, and thus for protecting my family I am willing to assume the risk that I have after what I would consider an 18 month trial period. You also have to put a lot of time in with these dogs, at least I do with mine and it isn't so much training as it is attention time.

I hope I am not wrong, but I could be, but nothing in life is certain.

https://dog.international/dangerous-dogs-part-1-taking-bite-out-of-dog-bite-statistics/

STL_aTm said:

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I Feel like we are being trolled. Who the hell lets their naked Asian neighbor take a picture with their dog and then wants to show it off to the OB of all places?!?

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It's a picture of my dog, nothing more, nothing less. It was a for a pet adoption calendar being promoted by a health club with their personal trainers. Who cares if he's Asian? If you're spending more time looking at the guy than you are the dog, maybe you're the one trying to tell us something?

El Chupacabra said:

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WTF is the point of owning an animal like that then?

NM...answered. Terrible answer, but nonetheless, thoroughly answered.

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It may have been an answer that doesn't fit you or your lifestyle, but that doesn't make it a terrible answer. If you don't get it, that's perfectly understandable. I'm not judging nor trying to change opinions. I was asked to explain, so I did.

Here's another way to look at it: this dog was going to exist whether I adopted it or not. It could have gone to a terrible owner and become the typical ferocious pit bull that you all hate so much. Or it could go to me, and I can make sure it's a safe, social, healthy dog.

You mention "an animal like that". That's just it - my dog hasn't ever given me a reason to believe that she's dangerous at all. In this case, it's "an owner like that". I'm going above and beyond what this dog requires. That's the kind of pit owner you want out there. The dogs aren't going away. The one in my house is a non-issue because I've made sure of it.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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If I have to limit access to my dog due to its aggressive breed nature, i wouldnt want to own that breed. Period.

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I have family with pits. I have a friend with great danes; I have other friends with mastiffs. I grew up with german shepherds and alaskan malamutes. I had in a friend in high school who owned a domesticated bobcat, and I knew several people who had wolf hybrids as pets. I have to even be careful with my dachshund, because he will literally rip a cat to shreds and will attack dogs twice his size. All of these cases involved pets where the owners restrict access to the animal by other people or animals. It's just being a smart owner and knowing your pet. If you can be responsible with your pet, then who cares?

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This won't get as many stars as it deserves, but it's got one from me.

Gramercy Riffs said:

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El Chupacabra said:

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WTF is the point of owning an animal like that then?

NM...answered. Terrible answer, but nonetheless, thoroughly answered.

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It may have been an answer that doesn't fit you or your lifestyle, but that doesn't make it a terrible answer. If you don't get it, that's perfectly understandable. I'm not judging nor trying to change opinions. I was asked to explain, so I did.

Here's another way to look at it: this dog was going to exist whether I adopted it or not. It could have gone to a terrible owner and become the typical ferocious pit bull that you all hate so much. Or it could go to me, and I can make sure it's a safe, social, healthy dog.

You mention "an animal like that". That's just it - my dog hasn't ever given me a reason to believe that she's dangerous at all. In this case, it's "an owner like that". I'm going above and beyond what this dog requires. That's the kind of pit owner you want out there. The dogs aren't going away. The one in my house is a non-issue because I've made sure of it.

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A safe and social dog that is never outside without its leash or you standing right by its side (even in its own fenced yard). A safe and social dog that can't be in the presence of others without you bear hugging it.

Sounds VERY safe and social.

Thank you for at least understanding and acknowledging that your dog is instinctively violent and has a high propensity to inflict rapid, serious injuries.

I'm sitting next to one right now at the Houston Humane Society clinic and it's going ape **** and the owner is threatening it within an inch of its life and dragging it around the waiting room.

Would anyone be able to point me in the right direction for a good attorney in the DFW area to speak with? My sister and BIL are up to their eyeballs with 4 kids, doctor visits, work, etc. and asked if I could assist with finding a good lawyer. I really don't know where to start but am not comfortable with them going to some ambulance chaser and short of doing a google search, have no idea about who we should contact. Any help is appreciated.

The J Amer Vet Med Assoc vol 252, no 2. Jan 15, 2018 has two letters to editor citing many references as to the dangers of pit bull-type dogs. Two old and slow to cite all the references. But one shows that of 1,616 consecutive dog bite injuries found that pit bull-type were implicated in half oa all injuries requiring surgery and that these dogs were 2.5 times as likely to bite in multiple anatomic locations as were dogs of other breeds. Supposley 40-50 % of fatal dog bite attacks have involved trusted family pets that reportedly had not not shown any signs of aggression. It appears it is not totally safe to leave a baby or small child alone with any breed dog.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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If I have to limit access to my dog due to its aggressive breed nature, i wouldnt want to own that breed. Period.

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I have family with pits. I have a friend with great danes; I have other friends with mastiffs. I grew up with german shepherds and alaskan malamutes. I had in a friend in high school who owned a domesticated bobcat, and I knew several people who had wolf hybrids as pets. I have to even be careful with my dachshund, because he will literally rip a cat to shreds and will attack dogs twice his size. All of these cases involved pets where the owners restrict access to the animal by other people or animals. It's just being a smart owner and knowing your pet. If you can be responsible with your pet, then who cares?

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Pitbulls have a bad name because many of their owners are not responsible. Thats the problem. The breed attracts owners that have no business trying to raise one.

Qfaced~ag said:

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Would anyone be able to point me in the right direction for a good attorney in the DFW area to speak with? My sister and BIL are up to their eyeballs with 4 kids, doctor visits, work, etc. and asked if I could assist with finding a good lawyer. I really don't know where to start but am not comfortable with them going to some ambulance chaser and short of doing a google search, have no idea about who we should contact. Any help is appreciated.

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You might want to start a new thread to get this immediate attention, and maybe cross post on Aggies Only or on the DFW board.

88planoAg said:

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Qfaced~ag said:

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Would anyone be able to point me in the right direction for a good attorney in the DFW area to speak with? My sister and BIL are up to their eyeballs with 4 kids, doctor visits, work, etc. and asked if I could assist with finding a good lawyer. I really don't know where to start but am not comfortable with them going to some ambulance chaser and short of doing a google search, have no idea about who we should contact. Any help is appreciated.

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You might want to start a new thread to get this immediate attention, and maybe cross post on Aggies Only or on the DFW board.

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Cross posted in Metroplex board.