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Pistol challenge inspired by robbery thread

13,496 Views | 103 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by BenderRodriguez
BenderRodriguez
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Do you own a pistol? Do you have a CHL? If you answer yes but don't shoot IDPA/USPSA, I challenge you to find and compete in a match this year.

After watching the video in this thread of a store employee defending himself against armed robbers, BrazosDog02 made the following observation:

Quote:

Seeing this is real life really drives home the point of how important it is to practice with your weapon. Practice shooting, loading, drawing, clearing a jam.....Getting it out of your gd holster when it's under 3 layers of clothing. This happens so fast. It makes it clear how smooth you must be and the decision that is made without any hesitation if the situation arises. That guy was caught off guard with his back to them and still got business taken care of. That to me is nothing but practice and muscle memory....Second nature stuff. If he had paused at all it could have ended a lot differently.

He is exactly right. But short of being robbed yourself, how on earth can an average guy with a pistol test himself against the challenge of drawing from concealment, engaging targets, not hitting bystanders, reloading under pressure, etc? After all, most ranges won't let you even shoot "rapidly", much less draw from concealment, move and shoot, etc.

We are not the first set of people to ask that question. There is an entire world of shooting sports out there that are based on the premise of helping prepare lawful citizens for the stressful act of defending themselves against violence.

Do you know how quickly you can draw from concealment and put rounds on a target? Do you know if you can make a hit on a threat at 20 yards and not hit the "no shoot" target right next to it? Do you know if you're capable of reloading on the move and under pressure? If you shoot at a traditional range, the honest answer is probably no. You have no idea whether or not you can do any of those things. However, if you shoot USPSA/IDPA....you do know what you and your pistol are capable of in a variety of situations, shooting positions, etc.

Is it exactly like actually having to defend yourself? Of course not. But it allows you to shoot in ways you often can't, and can help you better learn exactly what you're capable of with a pistol when under stress.

And if that wasn't enough of a pitch for trying it out, it's FUN and the people are welcoming. I highly encourage anyone who carries or owns a pistol for self defense to try out IDPA/USPSA to challenge yourself and your skills as a pistol shooter.

If anyone has any questions about the sports, the rules, the equipment, needs help finding a match close to them, etc....please reply and let me know what I can help you with. I firmly believe more Americans (and more Aggies) who are not only armed, but armed and skilled is a net positive for the world, and I want those of you who haven't yet tried it out to jump on in.

Heck, if you'd like to try it out and don't have the equipment I have enough to let you borrow a gun and the equipment necessary to shoot a match, so you're welcome to meet up with me and shoot a match in Central Texas.

BenderRodriguez
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Also, here is some video of me (doing pretty damn medicore, but I figured it would be good to see so others don't feel like they need to be experts to come out and shoot competitions).



Some highlights of fun:

0:07- Steel challenge: 5 12" targets arrayed from 10 to 30 yards, hit them as fast as you can.

0:22- Holding a briefcase, drop it, pull gun and engage moving targets. Those are no shoot targets the threat targets furthest out are most hiding behind at ~0:45...it was a good challenge.

1:31: car jacking.

Shooting idpa/uspsa is a blast.
'03ag
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So much this.

I recently started shooting with a local club that holds their own USPSA style matches. I've been to about 4 now and I've made major improvements. You'll be amazed at how much even tiny amount of pressure affects your shooting. My first competition I was really slow and couldn't hit a damn thing. My last match I was still really slow, but I had only one "b-zone" miss the entire day. Some other thoughts.

  • Don't worry about your equipment. My last match all I had was two 17rd mags and the holster that came with my Sig. Equipment can make you faster, but not enough to overcome your mechanics, which will be poor.
  • Don't think you should practice at the range more before you try competition. You'll be better after one trial by fire in competition than after several hours at the range. You'll have a better idea what things you need to work on. And you'll have more fun
  • As long as you are safe no one will judge your shooting/performance. They might be dying to help you though . . . ask questions.
Hoss
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Always wanted to get into IDPA and never have. Maybe this is the year. What's near Round Rock? I know (think) Best of the West has 3 gun. You know of any others?

Also, what do these matches usually cost?
Hoss
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Nevermind. Found what I was looking for...

http://www.caps-club.org/idpa.html
reddog90
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I've taken several defensive pistol and carbine classes, but never any matches. What's the difference in USPSA vs IDPA matches? How much do they usually cost? How does an average guy practice and prepare for one (or does the average guy just enter the match for the experience/practice)? How do I find them around Houston?
Hoss
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reddog90 said:

I've taken several defensive pistol and carbine classes, but never any matches. What's the difference in USPSA vs IDPA matches? How much do they usually cost? How does an average guy practice and prepare for one (or does the average guy just enter the match for the experience/practice)? How do I find them around Houston?
You can find IDPA clubs and cost information by going to the main IDPA website (IDPA.com) and searching for a club near you. The club closest to me charges $25 per match and they compete once a month. Membership to the club is optional, but it's only $30 a year I think (and being a member gets your $5 off per match).

Not sure about USPSA.
txyaloo
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reddog90 said:

I've taken several defensive pistol and carbine classes, but never any matches. What's the difference in USPSA vs IDPA matches? How much do they usually cost? How does an average guy practice and prepare for one (or does the average guy just enter the match for the experience/practice)? How do I find them around Houston?
IDPA is "defensive" pistol work. Drawing/shooting from cover, etc.

USPSA is where you get more in to "gaming", race guns, etc.

IDPA was created as a more "real world" version of USPSA
carpe vinum
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Yeah, it's a painful truth for me.

I have two that aren't locked up.
One is in the truck, loaded, but zipped up under crap in the center console.
The other is unchambered in a snap holster between the mattress and box spring.

In a quickly unfolding scenario they would be useless.
Bobby Ewing
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I use Tex Grebner's instructional video on drawing a pistol.
BenderRodriguez
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Alright, sorry. Internet has been down for 3 hours.

First things first: Easiest way to find local matches would be to search USPSA and IDPA affiliated clubs close to you.

locate USPSA clubs

locate IDPA clubs

Other options would be to ask your local gun clubs/stores if there are any local matches, or search websites like practiscore or http://gunmatchadvisor.com/?f[0" class="postlink " target="_blank">=field_location%253Afield_address%253Aadministrative_area%3ATX]gun match advisor.

I'll reply to individual posts in a second.

BenderRodriguez
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'03ag said:

  • As long as you are safe no one will judge your shooting/performance. They might be dying to help you though . . . ask questions.


So much this. Observe the 180 degree rule, keep your finger off the trigger while moving, listen to range commands, etc. No one cares if you're fast or a dead eye first time out. Take it slow, be safe, and everyone will be happy you're there.

BenderRodriguez
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reddog90 said:

I've taken several defensive pistol and carbine classes, but never any matches. What's the difference in USPSA vs IDPA matches? How much do they usually cost? How does an average guy practice and prepare for one (or does the average guy just enter the match for the experience/practice)? How do I find them around Houston?

Depends entirely on the club hosting...I've had them cost $10 (or free if you help set up the stages the day before) to $25 for local matches.

I would say if you've taken defensive classes before you don't need to "practice", just go shoot one and determine what you need to work on from there.

Links above should help you find some matches around Houston, I know there are a lot down there.

As for USPSA and IDPA. Whole big can of worms there. Some people only shoot one and talk crap about the other. Most of us realize that they're both just shooting sports and shoot them both, even if we have major gripes with the rules in one or the other (I really loathe some of the IDPA rules they claim are more "real world" for example).

They will have different divisions for different types of guns, but in general anyone with almost any of your standard production pistols from 1911 to Glock and XD all fit into a division pretty neatly so there isn't a whole lot of worry about not having the right gun for the sport. I shot a Glock 19 for quite a while in both.



BenderRodriguez
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carpe vinum said:

Yeah, it's a painful truth for me.

I have two that aren't locked up.
One is in the truck, loaded, but zipped up under crap in the center console.
The other is unchambered in a snap holster between the mattress and box spring.

In a quickly unfolding scenario they would be useless.

Come out to a match and work on changing that.

I am much, much more confident in my ability with a pistol now that I was a couple of years ago.

carpe vinum
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I'm confident with pistols
I have a 3 year old that gets into absolutely everything.
I intentionally keep a few extra steps involved for a reason.
A rambunctious 3 year old is vastly more likely than a shootout.
dr_boogs
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Bender - can you send me your contact info?

Edited to remove my phone number.
GigemCO2008
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I'm offshore, so of course the website is blocked due to "weapons" for the idpa site.

Once back on dry land tomorrow, I'll check it out and hopefully find a match while home this time.

For the longest time I told myself I was being more safe by not having a round in the chamber. After seeing the video, I think I am dead wrong now.
Did the suspect that was killed actually get a round off?

Besides matches, are there any ranges in Houston or courses around Houston that teach some defensive handgun training that you would recommend?

I would consider myself an ok shot, but I recognize the value of training or a refresher course that re-instills fundamentals.
The Wonderer
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Thanks for starting this thread, Bender. I've been wanting to get into these type matches for awhile now and have made it my goal to do so this year. Looking for matches for pistol and my Scorpion Evo.
BenderRodriguez
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Sent you a text this morning. 806 area code.
maverick2076
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Does anyone on here shoot with West Houston IDPA? They are the closest place to me, and I am thinking of maybe giving it a shot with them.
BenderRodriguez
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GigemCO2008 said:


Besides matches, are there any ranges in Houston or courses around Houston that teach some defensive handgun training that you would recommend?


I haven't taken any classes down in Houston. Maybe some of our other members will have suggestions for down there.

I get the reluctance to carry with one in the chamber, but the solution is simple. Keep the gun in a secure holster on your person, leave it there, and it isn't an issue. A gun without a round in the chamber is useless, and trusting that you will have both the time and both hands free to chamber a round when you need a gun isn't a good idea.


BenderRodriguez
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The Wonderer said:

Thanks for starting this thread, Bender. I've been wanting to get into these type matches for awhile now and have made it my goal to do so this year. Looking for matches for pistol and my Scorpion Evo.

Nice! So USPSA just started a PCC division that your Scorpion can be used in if it is a SBR or one of the carbine variants....they won't allow pistols or pistols with braces.

It's the same set up as their other stages, but you can use a rifle or SBR chambered in a pistol caliber which should be cool. I might need to set up a 9mm AR to use at some of our matches.

'03ag
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carpe vinum said:

I'm confident with pistols
I have a 3 year old that gets into absolutely everything.
I intentionally keep a few extra steps involved for a reason.
A rambunctious 3 year old is vastly more likely than a shootout.
As an expecting father I certainly empathize with this. I'm wondering what kind of adjustments I'll have to make. There has to be a better solution though.

Right now I have a quick access safe mounted to my nightstand. I leave it open at night. seems like a bad idea with a toddler in the house. I do think I could get it open pretty quickly in the middle of the night.

As for during the day your best option may be to home carry when around the house. Keep it on you and under your control.

If you must keep it unchambered then practice practice practice chambering that thing.
The Wonderer
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BenderRodriguez said:

The Wonderer said:

Thanks for starting this thread, Bender. I've been wanting to get into these type matches for awhile now and have made it my goal to do so this year. Looking for matches for pistol and my Scorpion Evo.

Nice! So USPSA just started a PCC division that your Scorpion can be used in if it is a SBR or one of the carbine variants....they won't allow pistols or pistols with braces.

It's the same set up as their other stages, but you can use a rifle or SBR chambered in a pistol caliber which should be cool. I might need to set up a 9mm AR to use at some of our matches.


It's SBR'd as of last month, I'm excited to get it on the range with its new abilities.

Are there matches geared more towards novices, or is it just classed based within the match?
BenderRodriguez
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The Wonderer said:




Are there matches geared more towards novices, or is it just classed based within the match?

That depends entirely on the club hosting, some do offer "novice" matches with easier stages to introduce people to it once or twice a year. My club does not, but usually offers a IDPA/USPSA 101 course once a year or so to walk people through the rules and any questions they might have, with a stage set up for them to get a look at.

You typically aren't squaded by ability, and you'll tend to shoot with guys who look Mikulek fast and brand new competitive shooters alike. I actually prefer it that way, because you can see what the better shooters are doing, and they can help make sure new shooters are safe, learning and having fun.

Honestly if you just sign up for a match, show up early and let them know you're new to it someone will probably take you under their wing for the match. I can't speak highly enough of the people who shoot IDPA/USPSA....they're competitive, but they want new people to join the sport, they want more shooters out there, and they're always happy to help out.

Hoss
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Contacted my local club and plan to shoot their next match with them. Unless it's cold. I don't do cold.

Question for Bender...I understood the IDPA rules to say that shooting must be done from concealment. It said with your arms straight out to the side the gun couldn't be visible from any direction. However, lookin at your video and pics on my local club's website, it looks like everyone is using OWB gear with shirts tucked in and no cover garment. What's the deal with that?

Also, for those of you worried about your kids, a quick access pistol safe is your obvious answer. My kids are older (8, 10 & 13) and have been taught not to touch guns without permission, but I still keep my carry gun in the nightstand safe or on my hip at all times and it's a non-issue.
BenderRodriguez
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Hoss said:

Contacted my local club and plan to shoot their next match with them. Unless it's cold. I don't do cold.

Question for Bender...I understood the IDPA rules to say that shooting must be done from concealment. It said with your arms straight out to the side the gun couldn't be visible from any direction. However, lookin at your video and pics on my local club's website, it looks like everyone is using OWB gear with shirts tucked in and no cover garment. What's the deal with that?


That video is a mix of IDPA and USPSA events. USPSA does not require concealment.

I guess you could say I disagree on the cold part. The IDPA shooting in that video was at the match this month. It started at 8:30 when it was 16 degrees and didn't hit 32 until we were done at 12:30. Some of the Glock guys were having issues with magazines not falling free in the cold, everybody had trouble with reloads with cold hands...it was a fun time.

IDPA matches in hot areas also sometimes do away with requiring cover if it is 110 degrees outside for the shoot, so that may explain the pictures you're seeing on the website.

I tend to use the same OWB gear for both IDPA/USPSA and just wear an oversized shirt when concealment is required.

Hoss
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I realize the importance and benefit of practicing in any weather conditions. I'm just sayin'...I don't like being cold. I especially don't like cold and windy. I've pretty much decided that if I'm in a self defense situation on a cold windy day then me and the other guy are just gonna come to an understanding that neither of us wants to fight or die under those conditions and we'll shake hands and agree to try again when weather conditions are more favorable.

Regarding concealment...the club I'm looking at is outside Austin. Yeah, it gets hot on the summer but that never keeps me from concealing. I wondered if maybe I read the rules wrong or something. It may not be the norm, but if I do IDPA I kinda want do it with my everyday carry gear.

On that note, I slipped my G34 in the holster today following our conversation in another thread about G19 vs G17 vs G34. I tried it before and the texture of the Gen 4 finish was uncomfortable, but I thought I'd give it another shot. Still love my G17 though. I hope it doesn't feel rejected sitting in the safe back home.

BenderRodriguez
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Love the 34. My 19 is a Gen4 and the grip hasn't ever bothered me too badly, but I know some people really hate it so I get why you prefer the gen 3 grip. And I thought it was interesting that the Glock guys were having as much trouble with magazines as they were. Never seen that before, but never shot a match below freezing before either. The magazines would still eject reliably, but they would stick in the mag well about half way out and need to be stripped out by hand, which slowed them all down a bit. My Dan Wesson was slightly frozen and took a bit of effort to get the slide moving before we shot the first stage, but once we were shooting I had no issues. My reloads are still damnably slow...I got used to the nice big double stack Glock mag well and I fumble my 1911 reloads sometimes....stupid single stack magazine wells are less easy to reload quickly.

I hear you on wanting to use every day gear. If you use kydex IWB holsters I think it'll be no problem. I use a leather IWB for my 1911 and it just isn't easy to reholster over and over again at a match. I've done it once or twice, but much prefer using OWB kydex options...less for the draw and more for the ease of re-holstering.

I also need to lose some muffin top...that would make reholstering easier too.



Bradley.Kohr.II
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A) They're both games, but in my very limited experience I got a whole lot out of my first trip through a shoot house because they actual draw/transition/target acquisition part was very easy.

B) There's a world of difference between the typical skill level in a USPSA match v an IDPA one.

Much of it is financial commitment based - the USPSA guy is, probably, practicing and prone to ***** if the match doesn't have enough rounds required.

The IDPA fellow will not practice and doesn't want to shoot too much in a match because he doesn't want to spend too much on Ammo.

Honestly, Steel Challenge matches tend to be the most fun, as the Tactical Barbie crowd are, almost, completely absent.

(Staggering stupidity and fantasy from the TB crowd - if you were in the military, or are a LEO, putting something to ID yourself as such in your bag MIGHT help keep them away - but it seems to attract them to some of my buddies from that world.)
txyaloo
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Hoss said:

I realize the importance and benefit of practicing in any weather conditions. I'm just sayin'...I don't like being cold. I especially don't like cold and windy. I've pretty much decided that if I'm in a self defense situation on a cold windy day then me and the other guy are just gonna come to an understanding that neither of us wants to fight or die under those conditions and we'll shake hands and agree to try again when weather conditions are more favorable.

I'm this way for heat! I'd rather be cold any day. Someone needs to come up with a shooting organization that only does matches in the fall/winter for us polar bears.

Quote:

On that note, I slipped my G34 in the holster today following our conversation in another thread about G19 vs G17 vs G34. I tried it before and the texture of the Gen 4 finish was uncomfortable, but I thought I'd give it another shot. Still love my G17 though. I hope it doesn't feel rejected sitting in the safe back home.


I have really sweaty hands, so my 19 is the RTF2 grip and I use grip tape on my other pistols. You eventually get used to the texture against your skin, but it does tend to catch and eat at your shirts. You might try a set of the Talon rubber grips on your G34. They'll still give you a good grip but because it's rubber, it's not so harsh on your body/clothes when carrying.
The_Thinker
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Where are you shooting these matches in the 806 area code??
BenderRodriguez
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Around here it's mostly the same guys shooting both, at a variety of skill levels. They just want to shoot. Some only do uspsa or idpa, but most of us take any opportunity we get. If I had to rank my preferences, it would be USPSA>Steel Challenge>IDPA.

You're right that it's all games, but it beats just static shooting on a square range every time.
BenderRodriguez
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The_Thinker said:

Where are you shooting these matches in the 806 area code??


I'm not in 806 anymore, just from there and kept my number.

I'm in Temple.
The_Thinker
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Well drat, always wanted to check this stuff out but ever my club I've found up here is dead.
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