Valid point, and definitely a better reason than "I conceal, so everyone else should too". While I have the same concern somewhat, I really don't see this having much effect. My guess (and from hearing other instances of states with OC) is that OC is urban areas will be rare. Most OC will be done in rural areas that most likely will not have people peeing their pants at the sight of a firearm. I will continue to CC as well, but I like the option if I'm around town at our property.

I am curious if other states that recently passed OC saw an increase in proper signage. I haven't heard of much, so my guess would be no.

My biggest concerns with OC is summed up in two thoughts: 1. good quality holsters and 2. weapon retention.

Too many people will have Gander Mountain specials flopping all over their crappy soft belt because they can, taken with that they have most likely never been trained or practiced any weapon retention techniques. The first problem leads to the second.

Do you guys realize that something like 43 or 44 other states have legal OC? These problems you are talking about are not occurring in those states in any statistically significant numbers. Why do you think it will be a problem here?

quote:

---

Do you guys realize that something like 43 or 44 other states have legal OC? These problems you are talking about are not occurring in those states in any statistically significant numbers. Why do you think it will be a problem here?

---

Just because they have it (OC) doesn't mean that it is very widespread and the two problems I raise still stand. Rare is it reported that a weapon was taken from a civilian, but often we see crappy holsters getting people into trouble with dropped weapons, negligent discharges, etc.

quote:

---

I for one am not a fan of open carry because CC is "out of sight out of mind". How many more businesses are going to educate themselves on gun signage if private citizens can OC? I can easily see OC hurting carryable places for CC.

Most are sheep and are gleefully ignorant of CC, OC changes that.

---

There is a flip side to the coin as well - the more prevalent something becomes, the more desensitized people become to it.

Will some people likely educate themselves on signage? Sure. The same thing happened when CC was passed as well. But guess what - we still managed to go on with our daily lives and it ultimately isn't that big of a deal for the vast majority of carriers, or businesses for that matter.

Texas is not on the cutting edge with open carry - it works just fine in many other states, I just don't see why there is opposition to it from supposed 2a supporters here.

quote:

---

quote:

---

For me, I will continue to keep my weapon concealed. Why would I want to become the first target if something were to go down? Better for the bad guys not to know who is armed than to advertise myself as the initial threat.

---

Then keep it concealed. Just because YOU prefer concealed doesn't give you the right to tell others how they should carry. Pretty simple, really.

---

At what point did I tell YOU how to carry? Pretty simple, really.

quote:

---

quote:

---

Do you guys realize that something like 43 or 44 other states have legal OC? These problems you are talking about are not occurring in those states in any statistically significant numbers. Why do you think it will be a problem here?

---

Just because they have it (OC) doesn't mean that it is very widespread and the two problems I raise still stand. Rare is it reported that a weapon was taken from a civilian, but often we see crappy holsters getting people into trouble with dropped weapons, negligent discharges, etc.

---

So you think that it will be so common in TX that this is a major issue? And I would disagree vehemently about it being rare that a weapon is taken from a civilian - that would be a prime time, headline making A #1 news story in any city that is big enough to have local news. We also rarely, if ever, read about on the message boards.

Simply because you think somebody won't handle something in the exact same manner that you would does not mean it should never happen. We have enough liberals to constantly tell us that as it is.

quote:

---

My biggest concerns with OC is summed up in two thoughts: 1. good quality holsters and 2. weapon retention.

Too many people will have Gander Mountain specials flopping all over their crappy soft belt because they can, taken with that they have most likely never been trained or practiced any weapon retention techniques. The first problem leads to the second.

---

Sounds like a lot of assuming here. While we're assuming, I'm going to assume that most people who will participate in OC, currently CC. Of all of the people I know that CC, almost all of them know the importance of a good gun belt and a good quality holster. They also practice and train with their carry weapon. Not real sure what makes you think that after 20 years of a strong record of responsibility for CC, all of a sudden idiots are going to start OC'ing.

quote:

---

At what point did I tell YOU how to carry? Pretty simple, really

---

When you said if we wanted to open carry, to become a peace officer. May not have been the way you meant it, but that's pretty much the way I took it.

Assuming and recycling worn out hypotherticals is the staple of using an argument when you have almost zero actual experience.

Mose....are you familiar with the origin of the literary phrase "some animals are more equal than others"?

It's a book you should read.

In all likelihood my estimation of your ability to safely manage your handgun is on par with your thoughts on the Mouthbreathers out there...but I won't deny you the Right to carry.

In fact, I support your logic. You should allow me to apply your logic to your Right (it's really not, by the way) to vote.

So back to the topic is there any news on the campus carry bill?

quote:

---

quote:

---

My biggest concerns with OC is summed up in two thoughts: 1. good quality holsters and 2. weapon retention.

Too many people will have Gander Mountain specials flopping all over their crappy soft belt because they can, taken with that they have most likely never been trained or practiced any weapon retention techniques. The first problem leads to the second.

---

Sounds like a lot of assuming here. While we're assuming, I'm going to assume that most people who will participate in OC, currently CC. Of all of the people I know that CC, almost all of them know the importance of a good gun belt and a good quality holster. They also practice and train with their carry weapon. Not real sure what makes you think that after 20 years of a strong record of responsibility for CC, all of a sudden idiots are going to start OC'ing.

---

The same problem children in the CC realm will probably become the problem children in the OC realm, except now they'll be on display for all to see.

Understand that I have nothing against OC at all, but weapon retention for someone who is going to OC is a very real training scenario that most will probably ignore. There's a reason why LE trains so hard on that very problem, to the point that it is specifically addressed in PPCT (what I like to call "Cop-Fu").

quote:

---

The same problem children in the CC realm will probably become the problem children in the OC realm, except now they'll be on display for all to see.

Understand that I have nothing against OC at all, but weapon retention for someone who is going to OC is a very real training scenario that most will probably ignore. There's a reason why LE trains so hard on that very problem, to the point that it is specifically addressed in PPCT (what I like to call "Cop-Fu").

---

I think you are overstating the "problem children" aspect. CC issues have shown to be incredibly minimal or it would not still be legal. I have no reason to believe anything different with OC.

As far as weapon retention, I don't doubt that it is important to be aware of your surroundings, but do you have examples of this being a widespread problem in the other 44 states that allow OC? I would think something like that would be front page news every time it happened.

quote:

---

As far as weapon retention, I don't doubt that it is important to be aware of your surroundings, but do you have examples of this being a widespread problem in the other 44 states that allow OC? I would think something like that would be front page news every time it happened.

---

It is front page news, but usually it involves a police officer, as they are the majority of the open carrying population...it is more than situational awareness, there are certain trainable skills that can be taught to fight for your weapon either in the holster or if it is trying to be taken from your hands.

As for the rest, I really don't care enough to spend the time researching it for you. I know it has happened, though.

I think there is a big difference between the a regular Joe open carrying and a cop. Cops have to approach crazy people as part of the job. Joe doesn't have to.

quote:

---

I think there is a big difference between the a regular Joe open carrying and a cop. Cops have to approach crazy people as part of the job. Joe doesn't have to.

---

You say that, but I would argue that an OC and a plain clothes officer have more in common with each other than not while out in public. Regardless, I know no matter what I type in this little box you won't believe me.

quote:

---

Regardless, I know no matter what I type in this little box you won't believe me.

---

Not true. If you were to type in real, statistical information in that little box showing that holster retention is a big problem among OC'ers in the other 44 states that have OC, you could absolutely change my mind. I am sure that there are a few scattered instances here and there, but I highly doubt it is a common problem.

quote:

---

quote:

---

I think there is a big difference between the a regular Joe open carrying and a cop. Cops have to approach crazy people as part of the job. Joe doesn't have to.

---

You say that, but I would argue that an OC and a plain clothes officer have more in common with each other than not while out in public. Regardless, I know no matter what I type in this little box you won't believe me.

---

It is not a matter of not believing, rather a matter of a lack of any actual evidence on your part and a whole lot of "tbis may happen, so we should not do something" faulty logic. In addition, with me at least, my experience says that your hypotheticals are exactly that - hypotheticals. Old worn out hypotheticals at that.

quote:

---

quote:

---

I think there is a big difference between the a regular Joe open carrying and a cop. Cops have to approach crazy people as part of the job. Joe doesn't have to.

---

You say that, but I would argue that an OC and a plain clothes officer have more in common with each other than not while out in public. Regardless, I know no matter what I type in this little box you won't believe me.

---

And you will never believe those with real world experience on this.

Please quit comparing open carry to police officers. As said, police are actively seeking crazy people and bad situations. They are cruising around parts of town I'll never go to. They are actively getting within a foot of crack heads, dealers, robbers, etc. The stories you are referring to are police getting in skirmishes and losing their weapons. That does not relate to criminals bum rushing an OC from behind and stealing his weapon.

quote:

---

And you will never believe those with real world experience on this.

---

You have no idea what experience I have or don't have. Be Internet angry all you want.

By all means, enlighten us with your experience on open carry.

quote:

---

By all means, enlighten us with your experience on open carry.

---

He's LE. I would guess he has more experience open carrying than most in this thread.

quote:

---

By all means, enlighten us with your experience on open carry.

---

I could say I'm Jeff Cooper and this being the interwebs it would simply not matter, but since you care so deeply I spent nearly a decade in full time law enforcement before making my hobbies my job and my job my hobby. Now this is when you reply with your arguments and it still doesn't matter, this being the Internet...after the bill passes we'll see good and bad, just as we did when CHL passed, but even that doesn't matter. Good people will still try to be good people and bad people won't care what the good people say is right or wrong. Minor incidents on the sides of each argument will arise and be blown out of proportion...by people on the Internet.

I'm not mad. And I'll admit I confused you with one of the earlier posters who was in college and was adamantly against it for made up reasons. But I still stand behind my reasoning of LE being entirely different than civilian OC.

I'm with htx. I figured early on in our conversation that you were LE. Still failing to make the connection that your experience as a cop proves that gun retention is an issue for OC.

quote:

---

I'm with htx. I figured early on in our conversation that you were LE. Still failing to make the connection that your experience as a cop proves that gun retention is an issue for OC.

---

It comes down to what we jokingly refer to as "turd logic." It exists in a realm of thought unachievable by the majority of society, it's the sort of decisions that leave normal people baffled. In Cc or OC there a fight is always a gun fight, even if it wasn't drawn the decision not to draw still influenced the fight. With CC, assuming this is a situation involving a turd trying to threaten or harm, the turd may not know there is a weapon in the fight. With OC it is readily known that a weapon is in the fight. In terms of LE use of force officer presence is the first rung on the ladder that ends with deadly force. When that turd logic hits and he still approaches, OC has entered the fight with someone who not only knows there is a weapon but has decided that the presence of a weapon is not an issue. Now the matter of weapon retention is paramount, regardless if the weapon is still holstered or not. If the turd can close the gap, you're in trouble if you haven't trained to keep that weapon and win.

The history of modern law enforcement is the most ready place we can turn to take a glimpse at a known weapon, turd logic and weapon retention scenarios. The OC civilian numbers are so low in comparison to exposure to the general population that they boarder on being statistically insignificant. Even if it is legal in many places, OC is still by and large uncommon for a large percentage of the population to encounter. The only place we can look to where there are the numbers to present a dataset of any use is modern law enforcement and assuming your username isn't a joke, you know how high the number is of officers killed or shot by their own service weapons.

I believe in EDC, I believe in CC and frankly I don't care one way or another about OC, but people deciding to OC should realize that weapon retention is significant and they should seek training. In reality so should anyone who carries.

The incredible amount of high level training that is available to civilians now, for a comparably low cost, is impressive. Take the opportunity to seek the training out, it can only make you better...unless you go full Costa then you'll be too tacticool for me.

quote:

---

quote:

---

---

I believe in EDC, I believe in CC and frankly I don't care one way or another about OC, but people deciding to OC should realize that weapon retention is significant and they should seek training. In reality so should anyone who carries.

The incredible amount of high level training that is available to civilians now, for a comparably low cost, is impressive. Take the opportunity to seek the training out, it can only make you better...

---

I 100% agree with this.

quote:

---

The only place we can look to where there are the numbers to present a dataset of any use is modern law enforcement

---

This is the part that I don't agree with. The claim you have made is basically that if open carry passes in Texas, there will be a significant amount of bad guys stealing weapons from people who OC. The best way to get an idea of how true that is would be to take a look at other states that have open carry laws. You have 88% of the country to draw statistical data from to get an idea of how this would play out in Texas, and you even admit that numbers are so negligible that they are insignificant. And I don't want you to think I'm coming across as a dick, I am really trying to understand where you are coming from. But if the data is so insignificant in all 44 other states, what is it about Texas that would make the statistic spike? Are you assuming that the ratio of OC:LE will be THAT much greater in Texas as compared to other states? Would OC passing get that many more people coming out of the woodwork to get a license to carry? And if so, would all of those people who currently carry concealed all switch to open carry? My best guess at answering all of those questions would be no. If you're in the Houston area and care to discuss more, we can do so over a cold beer. It's on me.

For somebody that got their panties in a wad about making assumptions, you would do yourself a favor if you did not turn around and to the exact same thing about me as well.

Like you, I too have experience with Open Carry, but mine is not LEO driven, which quite frankly is a completely different metric than civilian OC. You simoly cannot take data drawn from LEO experiences and extrapolate them to Average Joe, and I will disagree with much of what you have said on the subject with respect to applying it to civilian OC simply because it is trhing to force a square peg into a round hole.

quote:

---

So back to the topic is there any news on the campus carry bill?

---

SB11 (campus carry) is still waiting on the House Calendars Committee to put it on the schedule.

They met twice yesterday and again this morning. Minutes from those meetings are not yet available.

HB910 (open carry) is on the intent calendar for full Senate consideration. Don't know when they'll get to it.

quote:

---

quote:

---

So back to the topic is there any news on the campus carry bill?

---

SB11 (campus carry) is still waiting on the House Calendars Committee to put it on the schedule.

They met twice yesterday and again this morning. Minutes from those meetings are not yet available.

HB910 (open carry) is on the intent calendar for full Senate consideration. Don't know when they'll get to it.

---

Thanks the updates are appreciated and actually on topic. Looking at you OC b****es...

quote:

---

For somebody that got their panties in a wad about making assumptions, you would do yourself a favor if you did not turn around and to the exact same thing about me as well.

Like you, I too have experience with Open Carry, but mine is not LEO driven, which quite frankly is a completely different metric than civilian OC. You simoly cannot take data drawn from LEO experiences and extrapolate them to Average Joe, and I will disagree with much of what you have said on the subject with respect to applying it to civilian OC simply because it is trhing to force a square peg into a round hole.

---

I have some time OCing as a uniformed and plainclothes officer, and more time CC'ing as a civilian. I've never served a warrant, got in a foot chase, done a check on a pedophile, responded to a 911 call, etc while CCing, but I've done all those things OC'ing in uniform and plainclothes. I think anyone who will carry, whether open or concealed, should know some basics to retain the pistol. It's part of the reason I carry AIWB and had my duty holster slightly forward of my hip when uniformed.

OC was heard in senate today. It withstood several attempts at amendments. Last I saw, it was deferred until this evening for further discussion. Who knows.

I dont disagree that knowledge of the right holster for your weapon is a bad thing. I think most people that take the time to carry actually make attempts to get a good holster.

I know most people on this board really dont think the majority of people think about or pay attention to these things or are gun enthusiasts to the degree that they are, but the fact of the matter is that the statement that these legions of people will suddenly be walking around with a crappy holster not made for their gun and get their gun taken away on a routine basis as a result is simply an incorrect statement.

Open carry via HB910 just passed the Senate this evening.

Just needs the Governor's signature, now.