setting foot on ground is typically where you run into issues, sometimes depending on where the property line extends to, that includes submerged ground (I think).

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Prolly a troll, but trolls like you are the reason laws and lawyers exist in the first place (to a great extent). And you'll likely never own anything of consequence, preferring to mooch off of others.

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Wow man! You seem like a real pleasant person. I've been visiting the OB for 6-7 years and this is the first time I've been called a "troll". I can post pics of said dam if you'd like.

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Now I have to follow rules. But seriousky....a dam? I wouldn't worry. Make that old ******* come out and get you. I don't know anyone that would butch too much about it and if they do, make it worth
their while. They need the excitment.

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I didn't post the backstory b/c I was on my phone for the OP, but it's actually my friend's father's place. I've only been going out here with him for the last 2 or 3 months. But each time we've gone, we have fished off of the dam. My buddy fly fishes and likes to fish a shallow hole on the downstream side and I've always fished the deeper upstream side. We've always released fish back to the side they came from. Monday afternoon we were both fishing atop the dam and two ladies approached us and I knew they wanted us gone when they didn't reciprocate the two times I waved at them, as we could see them walking towards us for a few hundred yards. We said hello as they walked up and without returning any form of greeting, the older of the two ladies said, "this is private property and you can't be here. We have 70 people here this weekend and we can't be held liable if anything were to happen." My buddy motioned towards his property and said this is our place and she just shrugged it off. We had my 6 year old son and his 10 yo., and we just said okay and packed up our tackle and left as asked, without anything more said.

I understand we may have been in the "wrong", but it honestly just rubbed me a little wrong and I wanted to know what the law said. Maybe I'm old school at 33, but I think neighbors should be neighborly. It just doesn't make much sense to me that if you don't own the bed of the stream but you place a man-made structure across it, it's now yours.

raider, my post was not directed at you, but the actual troll referred to.

I don't understand enough about your situation to comment. But I will say it'd likely help a lot if you knew the neighbor. That's a place to start.

My bad Boerne! Guess I should learn to read....

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Why not do the simple thing and ask permission????

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Bingo, write a letter up and place it with a case of beer.

You look fine. That's a low water crossing that is usually under water. As long as the Johnson Fork is public.

Deats-it's actually a dam made from large limestone blocks. Not passable by vehicle.

The immediate resolution to this is to call the game warden. Either 1) y'all continue to fish from the dam after being told to leave by someone purporting to own the area as private property and you're trespassing or 2) the other party is harassing a fisherman.

Both are crimes. The game warden is the first stop in resolving the issue.

IMHO, asking permission to be on what I consider to be public property is ridiculous and just builds on landowners' already inflated sense of their right to exclude the public. There are clear rules for how to exclude people from private property.

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Prolly a troll, but trolls like you are the reason laws and lawyers exist in the first place (to a great extent). And you'll likely never own anything of consequence, preferring to mooch off of others.

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Wow man! You seem like a real pleasant person. I've been visiting the OB for 6-7 years and this is the first time I've been called a "troll". I can post pics of said dam if you'd like.

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Now I have to follow rules. But seriousky....a dam? I wouldn't worry. Make that old ******* come out and get you. I don't know anyone that would butch too much about it and if they do, make it worth
their while. They need the excitment.

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I didn't post the backstory b/c I was on my phone for the OP, but it's actually my friend's father's place. I've only been going out here with him for the last 2 or 3 months. But each time we've gone, we have fished off of the dam. My buddy fly fishes and likes to fish a shallow hole on the downstream side and I've always fished the deeper upstream side. We've always released fish back to the side they came from. Monday afternoon we were both fishing atop the dam and two ladies approached us and I knew they wanted us gone when they didn't reciprocate the two times I waved at them, as we could see them walking towards us for a few hundred yards. We said hello as they walked up and without returning any form of greeting, the older of the two ladies said, "this is private property and you can't be here. We have 70 people here this weekend and we can't be held liable if anything were to happen." My buddy motioned towards his property and said this is our place and she just shrugged it off. We had my 6 year old son and his 10 yo., and we just said okay and packed up our tackle and left as asked, without anything more said.

I understand we may have been in the "wrong", but it honestly just rubbed me a little wrong and I wanted to know what the law said. Maybe I'm old school at 33, but I think neighbors should be neighborly. It just doesn't make much sense to me that if you don't own the bed of the stream but you place a man-made structure across it, it's now yours.

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Yeah, he was talking about my post being a troll...not yours. My post of course WAS a troll, but that's what we did and still do for the most part. I only got run off a few times, but considering how much we did it, it was a rare occurrence.

We hiked, camped, fished and did pretty much what we wanted when we wanted and where we wanted along the river where we lived. We were interested in getting to our 'spot' and that required crossing fences, and maybe stopping at some stock tanks along the way. Most of the time we stuck to the river. I guess my point is that we didn't worry about what the law said about it all that much. Just treat it like it was yours....don't destroy it and if someone asks you to leave, then just leave. Pretty simple.

I don't think anyone will give you any trouble. If someone is so anal and crotchety to ***** about a dam...just move over to the water and carry on.

There will always be THOSE people...just do your thing and be respectful. WE never destroyed anything and we went out of our way to remain unnoticed.

The dam is upstream and we can walk in the water about 120 yards in 6" of water to reach it. We would never need to step foot on their land.

As to whether it's navigable? I'm still not real clear on this. Was it used for interstate commerce? Doubt it, but I believe its navigable by statute. Pretty wide stream from what I've seen.

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MHO, asking permission to be on what I consider [to be public property is ridiculous and just builds on landowners' already inflated sense of their right to exclude the public.

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The law is not based on your opinion nor consideration. Work hard, save your money, and you can buy your own piece of land to play on. If/when you do that, chances are your attitude about property rights will change.

The dam is upstream and we can walk in the water about 120 yards in 6" of water to reach it. We would never need to step foot on their land.

As to whether it's navigable? I'm still not real clear on this. Was it used for interstate commerce? Doubt it, but I believe its navigable by statute. Pretty wide stream from what I've seen.

BG,
The law is the law. You being an ass doesnt change that.

RA,
how does water get downstream? under, around, over dam?

GTFO. I do own land, I do work hard, and my hard work is boundary law.

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Yeah, he was talking about my post being a troll...not yours. My post of course WAS a troll, but that's what we did and still do for the most part. I only got run off a few times, but considering how much we did it, it was a rare occurrence.
We hiked, camped, fished and did pretty much what we wanted when we wanted and where we wanted along the river where we lived. We were interested in getting to our 'spot' and that required crossing fences, and maybe stopping at some stock tanks along the way. Most of the time we stuck to the river. I guess my point is that we didn't worry about what the law said about it all that much. Just treat it like it was yours....don't destroy it and if someone asks you to leave, then just leave. Pretty simple.

I don't think anyone will give you any trouble. If someone is so anal and crotchety to ***** about a dam...just move over to the water and carry on.

There will always be THOSE people...just do your thing and be respectful. WE never destroyed anything and we went out of our way to remain unnoticed.

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So, you're a nice willfull trespasser? But a willful trespasser nevertheless.

Nor does your calling me an ass make me one. But you're showing yours.

I'll show it all day until people quit screwing up the OB by being dicks. You seem to be one of last few grumpys still around.

Ah, so you've just been waiting for an opportunity to do a little policing, huh?

Deats-the middle 1/3 of the dam is under water a few inches, so its going over the dam.

And I agree that the new OB is much more similar to the GB, than it is to the old OB

Raider,
You are good, as long as its a public waterway.
Worse case stand, in the middle, in the water.


A few of us have decided to make this more like the old OB.

Since I'm not an attorney and just a licensed surveyor, my only advice would be, if you don't own the land, and it's not a state or govt park, you are trespassing, no matter the color of posts, lack of no trespassing signs, etc.

At least the land owner was decent enough to come and tell you to leave instead of calling the sheriff and having you arrested. Just my .02

I'd just fish from the water to be on the safe side (assuming the creek is navigable by statute).

I'm not sure about your right to stand on the dam and fish, but you have a right to cross the dam, or if that isn't feasible, you can legally enter private property to walk around the dam. This might still upset the landowners, but I honestly wouldn't care if I were in your shoes. Until they decide to point a 30-30 at you.

Nothing pisses me off more than dumbass landowners who think they own a navigable stream.

Where do you get the idea that you can cross private property to get around the dam. Private property is just that. There may be state (public) water within private property but you don't have a legal right to access it without permission from the land owner.

The purpose of the dam is to store the water. The dam is not a natural feature and would be considered, IMO, to be part of the private property. The only thing not private is the water.

If the river is in fact navigable, and the current owner actually owns the bed, resulting from the small bill, the The dam was created with his real estate, with the only thing left public is the water. If this is the case, you would actually be trespassing while walking in the channel just downstream of the dam.

To answer your question, there may have been an agreement with the governing body of that watershed, to build the dam. Just because a stream is navigable by definition, doesn't mean it will flow all year long which may be the case with this stream. I don't know.

Sassppis, if you look up Small Bill it will explain how people can own the bed of navigable rivers. It goes back to deficiency in acreage of original land grants.

There are several areas involving Spanish and Mexican land grants where the recipients were given full ownership of the channels along with the water. Some are located on the Guadalupe river. This issue came up a few years ago with tubers being stopped due to one of these owners placing a fence across the river. He did this because of all the trash being thrown on the banks of his property.

I know the state has tried to clear up and regain all ownership of waters within navigable streams, but I'm not sure if they have cured all the cases. These areas are especially important to the surveyor, when land sales are conducted, because the gradient boundary will no longer apply.

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Where do you get the idea that you can cross private property to get around the dam. Private property is just that. There may be state (public) water within private property but you don't have a legal right to access it without permission from the land owner.

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https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/nonpwdpubs/water_issues/rivers/navigation/riddell/scoutandportage.phtml

While this specifically deals with portaging while floating a section of river, I would imagine it would apply to wading as well. Case law seems to side with navigability over property rights.

I often portage my kayak on private property on the upper Guadalupe. Otherwise I would be unable to navigate the river.