Buddy has a ranch in Segovia on the Johnson Fork. Neighbor has a dam right where my buddies property ends. If we portage kayaks over the dam, I assume we are fine. Is it tresspassing to stand on the dam and fish?

Yes

So we can stand in the water and be fine, but not on the structure itself?

Why do you think you are OK on the water?

In public water = public
On private dam= trespassing

ask yourself this:
did you or your buddy pay for or build the dam?

I'm no expert on this matter, and just curious really.

But if water flows through a property like a river, doesn't that water belong to the state? Meaning, can a property owner legally build a damn to control the water?

I know you can have your own lake or creek on private property and it's yours, but if the water is public, I thought you couldn't control the flow with a dam.

TMK only "navigable" waterways are public. "Navigable" not meaning you can float something on it

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I think so. I also thought you weren't allowed to dam up a navigable stream. I want to say I've been told you can't dam up a perennial stream, only one that is intermittent. I'm probably way off on this though.

You can dam up streams, it just had to release a certain amount of water from it per minute

As long as the normal flow of the stream is kept downstream from the dam, then damming is OK.

What a lot of people don't understand and are ignorant to, is that the public has the right to use public waters, but does not have the right to trespass to get to them.

Unless you are standing in the actual bed of the channel that was dammed up, you are trespassing. But then, if the land owner wanted to be dirty about it, he would just wait for you to get out of the water and have you arrested.

Trespassing - yes. But I don't think that would constitute criminal trespassing until signs were posted or asked to leave by land owner

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Trespassing - yes. But I don't think that would constitute criminal trespassing until signs were posted or asked to leave by land owner

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or if carrying a firearm.

Agreed. But concealed would be ok right?

Sorry OP...Didn't mean to derail your thread.

SOME damming is allowed for pumping purposes etc. The dam still has to allow water flow though. When last I was a part of something like that, there were some fairly major legal hoops to jump through, and that's been a while.

You referring to the one visible in Google Earth between CR 410 & 2169?

It probably would be considered trespassing to stand on the dam to fish but based on the laws and precedent discussed on the TPWD website you'd probably be more than OK to portage over/around the dam.

Also, depending on whether or not Johnson Fork is deemed a public waterway the privately constructed dam may not be considered private property. In other words, the law may be fine with a private owner building that dam but the owner cannot restrict people from crossing it or fishing on it as it's resting on the streambed of a public waterway.

Lots of gray in the whole public/private waterway debate regarding access and who owns what and what is considered trespassing vs. what isn't.

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Agreed. But concealed would be ok right?

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Actually, concealed carry while trespassing, as I read it, is ground for suspension of your CHL, provided that any of the requirements of "Notice" (oral or written notice, fence "or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock;" signs, purple paint, crop cultivation, etc...) are met.

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PC 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS.
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(d) An offense under this section is:
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(3) a Class A misdemeanor if:
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(B) the person carries a deadly weapon during the commission of the offense.

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GC 411.187. SUSPENSION OF LICENSE. (a) The department shall suspend a license under this section if the license holder:
(1) is charged with the commission of a Class A or Class B misdemeanor or equivalent offense, or of an offense under Section 42.01, Penal Code, or equivalent offense, or of a felony under an information or indictment;

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If the stream is navigable and the dam was built across public property then you would not be trespassing. If it was not then you are. Dirt or water doesn't mater. If it was public in the past it is still public. That's also assuming the state didn't sell that piece to them (highly unlikely).

Here is some more info- https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/nonpwdpubs/water_issues/rivers/navigation/kennedy/kennedy_faq.phtml

Spin off question: I own land with a 90 acre pond on it. A property line runs through this pond and about 25 acres of the pond sit on the neighbor's land. Can he legally access by boat (canoe, kayak) the portion of the pond that sits on my land? If so, can he legally hunt my portion of the lake from a boat?

Dont believe he has the legal right to cross over the line without your permission.

Sensei, just think of it as if the pond were never built. His property lines and rights of use dont change. He can not hunt your portion of the pond without permission.

Unless the pond is an impoundment of public water. The public (or your neighbor) can fish public water from a boat floating over private land so long as the access point to the water was not trespassing in itself.

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You referring to the one visible in Google Earth between CR 410 & 2169?

It probably would be considered trespassing to stand on the dam to fish but based on the laws and precedent discussed on the TPWD website you'd probably be more than OK to portage over/around the dam.

Also, depending on whether or not Johnson Fork is deemed a public waterway the privately constructed dam may not be considered private property. In other words, the law may be fine with a private owner building that dam but the owner cannot restrict people from crossing it or fishing on it as it's resting on the streambed of a public waterway.

Lots of gray in the whole public/private waterway debate regarding access and who owns what and what is considered trespassing vs. what isn't.

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The bolded part is true.

I have a friend that owns about 1500 acres on the Lampasas River and their deed clearly states that they own to the center line of the river basin. They have paid taxes on that portion of their land for 40+ years to the county because of what their deed states.

However, the state says they own the river basin up to the flood line. You are talking about roughly 25 acres of land that taxes have been paid on that fall within that grey area. And there are a whole lot of people in the same boat.

I really don't think the State wants to clarify much, because it will open up a whole lot of litigation.

Thanks, guys. Not my land but asked for a friend. My initial thoughts were similar to what y'all posted.

There is a difference between public ownership and public right to access. There is a substantial portion of riverfront in texas that is privately owned, but the public has right to passage below the halfway point of the low and high cut bank on foot in addition to on the water, by most but not all legal interpretations. As a kayaker I stay in my boat except to portage unless I am on a major river that is clearly navigable by statute.

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You referring to the one visible in Google Earth between CR 410 & 2169?

It probably would be considered trespassing to stand on the dam to fish but based on the laws and precedent discussed on the TPWD website you'd probably be more than OK to portage over/around the dam.

Also, depending on whether or not Johnson Fork is deemed a public waterway the privately constructed dam may not be considered private property. In other words, the law may be fine with a private owner building that dam but the owner cannot restrict people from crossing it or fishing on it as it's resting on the streambed of a public waterway.

Lots of gray in the whole public/private waterway debate regarding access and who owns what and what is considered trespassing vs. what isn't

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It is the one south of 451 labeled on GE as Roach Lake. What is the easiest means of determining if Johnson Fork is "public" and if the dam is or isn't considered "private"? Thanks guys!

Ahhh. I miss the days when I could fish anywhere I damn well pleased, hike where I damn well felt lIke it and crossed whatever piece of land was in front of me. There was a time when 'illegal' was only an issue if some crotchety old land owner could catch us on his own place. There was a time when even a 4 wheeler wasn't enough for us.

Now I have to follow rules. But seriousky....a dam? I wouldn't worry. Make that old ******* come out and get you. I don't know anyone that would butch too much about it and if they do, make it worth their while. They need the excitment.

The Lampasas river is navigable, partly in fact and by definition. Unless your friends 1500 acres was a Spanish land grant or the original land grant was deficient, causing the Small Bill to be enacted, they never have owned the bed and channel of the Lampasas River, even though their deed says so. It may be a case, when they bought it, the previous owner included that area to increase their profits.

Just make sure you know where public and private ownership begin and end. For navigable streams, it's the gradient line, which in most cases is within a foot or two of the normal flow in the channel.

Basically on a navigable stream, once you get out of the water, you are by definition, trespassing.

Maybe it is a shared dam? Possibly the property line extends to the middle of the creek.

Why not do the simple thing and ask permission????

Prolly a troll, but trolls like you are the reason laws and lawyers exist in the first place (to a great extent). And you'll likely never own anything of consequence, preferring to mooch off of others.