Also, I love my Glocks, and I will continue to shoot Glocks until I find something that I love to shoot more than my Glocks.

I don't really care what any of the rest of you shoot.

That is all. Carry on.

Schmellba- 1911s are less likely to run straight from the box, as a whole. Agree or disagree?

I don't know where you got this idea that I'm some mall ninja uber tactician. I shoot USPSA for fun and enjoy getting better at shooting. I don't pretend I'm a contractor or some bull****, and have never gone to a "tactics" class, just ones to make me shoot better.

We're not talking S&W sigma vs Wilson 1911 triggers here. If a stock glock trigger vs a run of the mill 1911 trigger is the difference between keeping shots in the 6 ring of a TX chl target vs the 10 ring, your trigger control sucks.

Phi- lulz.

A 3 lb trigger is pretty light for a defensive gun, sure you don't have some gamer in you? I don't pop a boner of "glass rod breaks" in a pistol trigger. Can I shoot it quickly without disturbing my sight picture with a proper trigger pull? Yeah, cool. The gun that the trigger is attached to matters a *schooch* more than trigger feel to me.

You know what I did when I had to switch to glocks and their IMPOSSIBLE grip angle from HELL? I used to buy into that drivel to, so I *****ed incessantly, then put the sights on the target and pulled the trigger to the rear without moving the sights. It's really not that hard, even if it requires bending your wrists slightly more.

RE: Games vs. tactical shooting - You're right. One requires you to quickly and accurately engage a series of targets while in a variety of positions and on the move while under time pressure. The other requires a guy with a size 62 tactical belt talking about the latest ed brown doohickey on ol slabsides between bites of cheeseburger.

I've been driven to elevate my shooting more after 2 USPSA matches than 4 years of prior shooting pretty seriously. Getting really ****ing good at shooting a gun seems like a good way to get better at something that requires me to shoot a gun. YMMV.

Bender - Your second post first...

My picture was of a man demonstrating the actual measured grip angle as it relates to the bore axis of a Glock (17*) and a 1911 (11*). It wasn't supoosed to be about fit or any one person's grip. It was a pure factual demonstration of the difference in the angles of the grip frames of the two firearms.

Now, for your first response...

You're falling victim to a reverse composition/division fallacy in that supposedly what is true about one part of a discussion isn't necessarily true about another part. That is not the case.

You say that criticising the Glock as difficult or sub-optimum for the purposes of 25yard target shooting is legitimate, but for defensive shooting it isn't isa logical fallacy.

Yes, in close at defensive distances the target appears larger and thusly more forgiving, however in defensive shooting we also have to be much quicker than we would if we were shooting Bullseye competition at Camp Perry. Defensive shooting, in particular follow up shots, are often taken with only a flash sight picture (controlled pair) or even with no sight picture at all (dedicated pair). Natural point of aim, recoil control and muscle memory play HUGE roles in this. All three of those items are rooted in grip, stance, trigger and recoil absorbtion by the body. So your fallacy falls flat sir.

You say you train with and carry many different guns depending on the destination, attire and weather. I don't. My defensive gun is a 5", single stack 1911. Period. That's what I train with (defensively speaking.) I'd rather have a gun that is COMFORTING than a gun that is COMFORTABLE.

Again, just my philosophy. Not saying you're doing it wrong or that others should do as I do.

As for what it looks like, I'm just an NRA Pistol instructor with 2000-3000 rounds down range in training every year. I've instructed defensive pistol classes in 4 states and attended defensive pistol classes in 6. I've spent 10 years honing my skill with a handgun. I've owned dozens of handguns in that time. Revolvers of all types, Glocks, Sigs, Smiths, Rugers, Berettas, Walthers, Springfields and more than a dozen different brands of 1911's, however I've finally narrowed my collection to 4. S&W M&P for the boat, a S&W model 51 .41 Mag for protection during hunting season, (though, that may be going away soon...) a S&W model 1917 from WWI that was a gift from a friend, and my Ed Brown 1911 for carry.

I'm not claiming to be some kind of mall ninja. I'm just saying I'm not some irrational 1911 fanatic.

Phil, as I've said earlier I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest over who shoots better or has more credentials. Not that it matters either way, but I'm a NRA Instructor as well. I see students with a huge variety of pistols in class, so I tend to stick with the idea of "any gun that is reliable, is chambered in a proven caliber and works for you can serve the purpose" and avoid caliber/brand debates (in class anyway ).

Here is my takeaway from your posts that I wanted to address from the get go (and that I apparently addressed poorly)...to quote you:

quote:

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Again, just my philosophy. Not saying you're doing it wrong or that others should do as I do.

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Cool, makes sense to me and if it works for you I have no problems with it. As I said earlier, your complaints about Glocks are due to your philosophy and training, not due to inherent design deficiencies....which was the problem I had with your original statement about overcoming design flaws.

We drifted a little bit there with defense/competition, but I think that sums up the root of my issue with your statement. Glocks don't work for you or in your philosophy of use. That is fine. That doesn't mean the design is poor or deficient, which is what you said in the other thread and what I wanted to address.

For the record, I wasn't saying I thought the Glock was deficient for Bullseye or target shooting, just that I could understand why someone else would choose a different pistol. Sorry if that wasn't communicated effectively... I'm much better at communicating face to face than online, unfortunately. So no, there is no logical fallacy in my post, just a very poor and unorganized explanation of my point.

Hope this makes my position slightly more clear than mud.

Indeed and I don't think we disagree as much as it may appear.

Though, I feel like my philosophy is the right philosophy, (don't we all?) so I still stand by my claim that the Glock design is sub-optimum.

This is worse than reading the Nerdery.

Here you go Sarge...

NRH, as for 1911s being more or less likely to run from the box, that is more about manufacturing than design.

GLOCK does an incredible job running their manufacturing operations - I've never picked up a new stock Glock, and had the trigger feel different than any other.

This contrasts with, say, S&W's M&Ps, which have almost no consistency - but plenty of other manufacturers also have problems.

I was reading... and got scared and ran to safe.



Whew... everything is ok... i was worried they had hurt each other.

NRH, you still a cop? B/C you are sure as hell living up to the stereotype...

NRH- which 1911 manufacturer are you specifically talking about? I would argue that the answer is HIGHLY dependent on specifics as you cannot logically put one manufacturer against several manufacturers. You also need to account for when production occured as well.

You are moving the target again on trigger control. In your scenario, yeah, probably a poor shooter, but that also does not negate the fact that regardless of platform, a good trigger is going to enhance the shooter's capability and your initial blanket statement of "if you need a good trigger to shoot well then you suck as a shooter and need to go practice" (or thereabouts.)

You dislike 1911's, we all get it. But regurgitating inaccurate information about them does not make you correct, nor does it relegate the platform to some antiquated or strictly showpiece status. That is all I am getting at. We are lucky we have as many choices in pistols as we do.

NRH, there used to be guy who would post on the politics board all the time that Lincoln was a fascist. Not as opinion, but as fact. I used to see him post on
other boards around here and I would post in reply to remind people that they were dealing with a guy whose starting point on facts was unreasonable.

I'm just doing the same for you. You don't say that Sigs suck for you, you say they suck in an objective fashion, as if you hold the one truth as to pistol ergos and that if some one likes a Sig (or a 1911) for that matter they are simply wrong and stupid for their choice.

I'm just trying to let everyone else know you use your own set of facts and reasoning with you is a waste of time.

You probably do shoot better than me, but I never commented on your shooting abilities, so I don't know why you commented on mine.

By the way, you sound like a mall ninja. I bet you wear all your 5.11 gear you picked up at GT to your USAPA matches and your AR is covered in useless accessories.

[This message has been edited by squirrelhunter (edited 2/25/2013 9:33p).]

[This message has been edited by squirrelhunter (edited 2/25/2013 9:34p).]

Schmellba: I'm moving the target? You've gotta be kidding me. I've been saying the same thing all along, you keep changing what's being discussed RE: trigges.

As for brands, RIA, Colt, Kimber, SA, I don't care. Pick a brand, run a few k through ten or so of their pistols, and I bet you'll average more malfunctions than a sample from most polymer pistols that would be considered for carry or defensive use. Throw in the requirement that the gun has to run a variety of JHPs and the results will probably skew even more in the favor of polymer guns.

Deats: get in on the dogpile earlier next time.

Squirrel: Your dedication to being thoroughly wrong is impressive, good job. Why would you take a a statement on ergos as anything other than opinion? The stock grips on sigs hinder my ability to get a proper high thumbs grip. They suck. Throw on hogue aluminum grips or VZ grips and they get drastically better.

5.11? **** son, I go all out with BLACKHAWK!. You know they're extreme because they put an EXCLAMATION POINT right in the name! How badass is that?

FWIW, I don't shoot handguns much in general, and I quit keeping the G21 loaded because I did not like the safeties or lack there of. If the SHTF it is my go to pistol.

NRH, are you a chick? I used to date a girl from NRH that flew off the handle all of the time and I think she became a cop. Just wondering.

If I was a chick I'd never date someone gay enough to use a crossbow. I'm pretty sure I'd throw my appletini in the face of a guy who used it as his texags handle.

I laughed out loud at your comment about BLACKHAWK! I always imagine their people have to yell their own company name out when demoing stuff.

It is my 4th or 5th handle so I ran out of better options!

It is in all caps. I wouldn't buy anything from a salesman with poor grammar, would you?

I will admit to being a near full on tactical timmy in the past. I have since since turned into a terrible troll who no one should want anything to do with.

MIND BLOWN!!!!!

I can't believe someone hasn't posted this already.

NRH, tell me when someone shows up on the Glock forums and says they have a new G34 and want to start shooting USPSA what does every one tell them to do with that pistol?

I don't know. I don't go to glock talk because I'm not going to expose myself to that level of stupidity on a regular basis and the only USPSA forum I use is Doodie. If you go there for help you are stupid.

My guess would be sights, non captured guide rod/11lb recoil spring, and maybe trigger parts.

quote:

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I don't know. I don't go to glock talk because I'm not going to expose myself to that level of stupidity on a regular basis

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I got news for you... You've already been exposed... You're a carrier...

Maybe one day I'll be able to come up with a bunch of sciencey soundings BS to back up my inability to simply align the sights of a pistol on the target and pull the trigger.

One can dream.

I have a Glock 21, she was my first purchase and you never forget your first. I love mine, I've put 300 down the barrel at a single session with no problems to my arms, wrist, or shoulder, the pumpkin and targets on the other hand didn't fair so well.
I have done a few upgrades over the years to mine, a tungsten guide rod with upgraded spring, a KKM Precision barrel, and a 3# trigger. All these have made this one of my favorite guns in the collection and it occasionally is my CHL gun (I'm 6'5" so I can carry a full size with no problems).