His tweet was over the top for sure but the guy has more knowledge on the topic than most everyone here. That's all I was pointing out.
Dolphins - Tua looks bad. Prayers
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Last: 2 yr ago by AgBQ-00
Yet he knows more about concussions than the docs the nfl and dolphins are using.
Tua should've never been allowed back in after the hit last week.
Stuff like this will destroy this game.
Tua should've never been allowed back in after the hit last week.
Stuff like this will destroy this game.
I'm not familiar with the exact procedure...are team doctors evaluating concussion protocols or is it a league doctor?
Someone from the league has to be making the calls or there is always a chance the teams will do what it takes to win
Someone from the league has to be making the calls or there is always a chance the teams will do what it takes to win
All the teams have an Unaffiliated Neurotrauma Consultant (UNC) on the sideline and there is also a spotter/video reviewer.
If you undergo an evaluation in-game then you are required to be re-evaluated the following day even if you were cleared to return to the game.
This from an NFL.com article and seems like what should have kept him from returning last week, they literally had to argue it was his leg/back that made him stumble. Or the sun got in his eye.
"Required an evaluation for all players demonstrating gross motor instability (e.g., stumbling or falling to the ground when trying to stand) to determine the cause of the instability. If the team physician, in consultation with the sideline UNC, determines the instability to be neurologically caused, the player is designated a "No-Go" and may not return to play.
Further reading:
https://www.nfl.com/_amp/concussion-protocol-return-to-participation-protocol
https://theathletic.com/3631317/2022/09/27/nfl-concussion-protocol-facts/?amp=1
If you undergo an evaluation in-game then you are required to be re-evaluated the following day even if you were cleared to return to the game.
This from an NFL.com article and seems like what should have kept him from returning last week, they literally had to argue it was his leg/back that made him stumble. Or the sun got in his eye.
"Required an evaluation for all players demonstrating gross motor instability (e.g., stumbling or falling to the ground when trying to stand) to determine the cause of the instability. If the team physician, in consultation with the sideline UNC, determines the instability to be neurologically caused, the player is designated a "No-Go" and may not return to play.
Further reading:
https://www.nfl.com/_amp/concussion-protocol-return-to-participation-protocol
https://theathletic.com/3631317/2022/09/27/nfl-concussion-protocol-facts/?amp=1
Dolphins messed up so bad.
You didnt need an academic certification to know if Tua had a concussion last week.
And releasing him early from
Hospital? Come on.
You didnt need an academic certification to know if Tua had a concussion last week.
And releasing him early from
Hospital? Come on.
We’ll fight like hell to keep QBs who sexually assault women from getting suspended for too long but when one of the good guys has concussive symptoms, returns to the game, doesn’t enter concussion protocol, and is allowed to play 4 days later, “our investigation is ongoing.” https://t.co/2tvIyICxJz
— Mitchell Schwartz (@MitchSchwartz71) September 30, 2022
Scary and sad. You will see replays of that play for years. Guarantee you football lost some future players after parents witnessed that last night.
I get your line of thinking and tend to agree. However, I'd hope that the Doctors releasing him from a hospital in Cincinatti are completely independent from the NFL or any of the teams and objectively determined he was good to at least fly back with the team. Maybe I'm being naive though.W said:this may be part of the problem.Daddy-O5 said:
Tua to be discharged and fly back with the team.
just let him spend the night there under supervision...and stay away from the team & facility for a couple of days
Assuming the local doctors weren't pressured by the team to let him go home sooner.Daddy-O5 said:I get your line of thinking and tend to agree. However, I'd hope that the Doctors releasing him from a hospital in Cincinatti are completely independent from the NFL or any of the teams and objectively determined he was good to at least fly back with the team. Maybe I'm being naive though.W said:this may be part of the problem.Daddy-O5 said:
Tua to be discharged and fly back with the team.
just let him spend the night there under supervision...and stay away from the team & facility for a couple of days
I don't know what to think. To my layman eyes, both of the events look bad and it seems like he was rushed back into playing. Moreover, the league does not have a good track record with health issues generally and concussions specifically.
Having said that, the number of people that would need to be involved for this to be a cover up is difficult for me to wrap my head around. Beginning with last week, it's my understanding that, in addition to the team's medical personnel, the league now requires an independent neurologist to clear them. I also assume that the Dolphins coaches, front office personnel, etc. probably like Tua as a person and don't want to see him permanently disabled anymore than the rest of us do. For all of them to risk the health of someone they presumably like and their own careers is somewhat tough to square. This wasn't the Super Bowl. Throw in Tua being released last night and now people are suggesting doctors in Cincy are apparently in on it too. That's a ton of people that are being charged with extremely reckless disregard for Tua's well being. Maybe that is what happened, but when that many people have to act that nefariously, for limited gain (Tua playing in a single random game) and an enormous downside (loss of medical license for doctors and permanent ostracism from football for the coaches), that doesn't make much sense.
Having said that, the number of people that would need to be involved for this to be a cover up is difficult for me to wrap my head around. Beginning with last week, it's my understanding that, in addition to the team's medical personnel, the league now requires an independent neurologist to clear them. I also assume that the Dolphins coaches, front office personnel, etc. probably like Tua as a person and don't want to see him permanently disabled anymore than the rest of us do. For all of them to risk the health of someone they presumably like and their own careers is somewhat tough to square. This wasn't the Super Bowl. Throw in Tua being released last night and now people are suggesting doctors in Cincy are apparently in on it too. That's a ton of people that are being charged with extremely reckless disregard for Tua's well being. Maybe that is what happened, but when that many people have to act that nefariously, for limited gain (Tua playing in a single random game) and an enormous downside (loss of medical license for doctors and permanent ostracism from football for the coaches), that doesn't make much sense.
BenFiasco14 said:
Hard to speculate now. If he was forced to play - woof. What if he insisted? Don't want to jump to conclusions yet BUT if he was FORCED to play, this might get interesting.
Can players insist if not cleared? Was Tau ever deemed to have a concussion prior? I read somewhere they said it was a back injury. BS
KidDoc said:
I just caught up with this story on TNF. Im my professional opinion the mechanism and stumble last week were nearly 100% a concussion. I'm very interested to know what specific tests were done to allow him to get out of the concussion protocol. Between the head shake and stumble just hard to say that was just back and ankle pain.
The hand clenching with neurotrauma is common and basically a mini seizure. If he indeed didn't have a concussion last week likely no biggie. If he was still in recovery from Sunday, which is what I believe to be true, this is a 2nd severe concussion in under a week and very high risk of cerebral edema and severe health risk.
Is this a situation where the player is at such a high risk now that they might retire for fear of permanent damage?
It really depends on the details of his neurological exam. Most NFL teams should be using computerized testing where they have pre-injury baselines for balance, recall, path finding, reaction time then they can test for small neurological problems post injury and determine when they can return to play.ApachePilot said:KidDoc said:
I just caught up with this story on TNF. Im my professional opinion the mechanism and stumble last week were nearly 100% a concussion. I'm very interested to know what specific tests were done to allow him to get out of the concussion protocol. Between the head shake and stumble just hard to say that was just back and ankle pain.
The hand clenching with neurotrauma is common and basically a mini seizure. If he indeed didn't have a concussion last week likely no biggie. If he was still in recovery from Sunday, which is what I believe to be true, this is a 2nd severe concussion in under a week and very high risk of cerebral edema and severe health risk.
Is this a situation where the player is at such a high risk now that they might retire for fear of permanent damage?
Impact is the program I have used some as they also have enough data to generate age based norms if you don't have preinjury testing on a specific person.
ImPACT Test | Baseline Concussion Testing | UPMC Sports Medicine
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
I agree. And that's why I worded my statement in the manner I did; I'd hope that's not the case and they have no reason to succumb to pressure from an entity that has no authority over their medical decisions. One would hope.Know Your Enemy said:Assuming the local doctors weren't pressured by the team to let him go home sooner.Daddy-O5 said:I get your line of thinking and tend to agree. However, I'd hope that the Doctors releasing him from a hospital in Cincinatti are completely independent from the NFL or any of the teams and objectively determined he was good to at least fly back with the team. Maybe I'm being naive though.W said:this may be part of the problem.Daddy-O5 said:
Tua to be discharged and fly back with the team.
just let him spend the night there under supervision...and stay away from the team & facility for a couple of days
Pisses me off.
We don't know with 100% certainty he had a concussion against the Bills. Sure, medical experts reviewed him and maybe its possible there's a very unusual situation here. Doubtful but possible.
But we do know with 100% certainty that it should have been impossible to definitively rule out a concussion against the Bills!
Somewhere along the way of Tua getting cleared to return to the Bills game, there was a failure. And that failure is why everyone is upset now.
We don't know with 100% certainty he had a concussion against the Bills. Sure, medical experts reviewed him and maybe its possible there's a very unusual situation here. Doubtful but possible.
But we do know with 100% certainty that it should have been impossible to definitively rule out a concussion against the Bills!
Somewhere along the way of Tua getting cleared to return to the Bills game, there was a failure. And that failure is why everyone is upset now.
You don't remember this one just last season?kyledr04 said:
Scary looking. Never seen that.
this is terrifying pic.twitter.com/fElYYe74ku
— Warren Sharp (@SharpFootball) December 17, 2021
Don't forget that the Dolphins didn't want Tua. They tried to get Deshaun Watson and Tom Brady but couldn't so Tua was what was left.JCA1 said:
I don't know what to think. To my layman eyes, both of the events look bad and it seems like he was rushed back into playing. Moreover, the league does not have a good track record with health issues generally and concussions specifically.
Having said that, the number of people that would need to be involved for this to be a cover up is difficult for me to wrap my head around. Beginning with last week, it's my understanding that, in addition to the team's medical personnel, the league now requires an independent neurologist to clear them. I also assume that the Dolphins coaches, front office personnel, etc. probably like Tua as a person and don't want to see him permanently disabled anymore than the rest of us do. For all of them to risk the health of someone they presumably like and their own careers is somewhat tough to square. This wasn't the Super Bowl. Throw in Tua being released last night and now people are suggesting doctors in Cincy are apparently in on it too. That's a ton of people that are being charged with extremely reckless disregard for Tua's well being. Maybe that is what happened, but when that many people have to act that nefariously, for limited gain (Tua playing in a single random game) and an enormous downside (loss of medical license for doctors and permanent ostracism from football for the coaches), that doesn't make much sense.
Know Your Enemy said:Don't forget that the Dolphins didn't want Tua. They tried to get Deshaun Watson and Tom Brady but couldn't so Tua was what was left.JCA1 said:
I don't know what to think. To my layman eyes, both of the events look bad and it seems like he was rushed back into playing. Moreover, the league does not have a good track record with health issues generally and concussions specifically.
Having said that, the number of people that would need to be involved for this to be a cover up is difficult for me to wrap my head around. Beginning with last week, it's my understanding that, in addition to the team's medical personnel, the league now requires an independent neurologist to clear them. I also assume that the Dolphins coaches, front office personnel, etc. probably like Tua as a person and don't want to see him permanently disabled anymore than the rest of us do. For all of them to risk the health of someone they presumably like and their own careers is somewhat tough to square. This wasn't the Super Bowl. Throw in Tua being released last night and now people are suggesting doctors in Cincy are apparently in on it too. That's a ton of people that are being charged with extremely reckless disregard for Tua's well being. Maybe that is what happened, but when that many people have to act that nefariously, for limited gain (Tua playing in a single random game) and an enormous downside (loss of medical license for doctors and permanent ostracism from football for the coaches), that doesn't make much sense.
That doesn't explain the medical staff. And not wanting him as your starting QB is completely different than not wanting him to be a vegetable. You really think because they would rather have a starting QB, they are ok killing him? And that sets aside the self preservation angle, since they will be crucified (and rightly so) if it comes out they covered this up.
And, again, I have no idea what happened. Just pointing out the crazy number of people who have to be willing to see a man be permanently disabled for a cover up to be true. Doesn't mean it's not, but that's what it requires.
Dat Nguyen calls it going Cricket- the drama over this one is laughable
Is it though??MookieBlaylock said:
the drama over this one is laughable
I'm stating that they don't seem to think of him as the long term solution so they may be willing to take more risks with his health than someone they do see as the future.JCA1 said:Know Your Enemy said:Don't forget that the Dolphins didn't want Tua. They tried to get Deshaun Watson and Tom Brady but couldn't so Tua was what was left.JCA1 said:
I don't know what to think. To my layman eyes, both of the events look bad and it seems like he was rushed back into playing. Moreover, the league does not have a good track record with health issues generally and concussions specifically.
Having said that, the number of people that would need to be involved for this to be a cover up is difficult for me to wrap my head around. Beginning with last week, it's my understanding that, in addition to the team's medical personnel, the league now requires an independent neurologist to clear them. I also assume that the Dolphins coaches, front office personnel, etc. probably like Tua as a person and don't want to see him permanently disabled anymore than the rest of us do. For all of them to risk the health of someone they presumably like and their own careers is somewhat tough to square. This wasn't the Super Bowl. Throw in Tua being released last night and now people are suggesting doctors in Cincy are apparently in on it too. That's a ton of people that are being charged with extremely reckless disregard for Tua's well being. Maybe that is what happened, but when that many people have to act that nefariously, for limited gain (Tua playing in a single random game) and an enormous downside (loss of medical license for doctors and permanent ostracism from football for the coaches), that doesn't make much sense.
That doesn't explain the medical staff. And not wanting him as your starting QB is completely different than not wanting him to be a vegetable. You really think because they would rather have a starting QB, they are ok killing him? And that sets aside the self preservation angle, since they will be crucified (and rightly so) if it comes out they covered this up.
And, again, I have no idea what happened. Just pointing out the crazy number of people who have to be willing to see a man be permanently disabled for a cover up to be true. Doesn't mean it's not, but that's what it requires.
Mike McDaniel is that you?MookieBlaylock said:
Dat Nguyen calls it going Cricket- the drama over this one is laughable
Know Your Enemy said:I'm stating that they don't seem to think of him as the long term solution so they may be willing to take more risks with his health than someone they do see as the future.JCA1 said:Know Your Enemy said:Don't forget that the Dolphins didn't want Tua. They tried to get Deshaun Watson and Tom Brady but couldn't so Tua was what was left.JCA1 said:
I don't know what to think. To my layman eyes, both of the events look bad and it seems like he was rushed back into playing. Moreover, the league does not have a good track record with health issues generally and concussions specifically.
Having said that, the number of people that would need to be involved for this to be a cover up is difficult for me to wrap my head around. Beginning with last week, it's my understanding that, in addition to the team's medical personnel, the league now requires an independent neurologist to clear them. I also assume that the Dolphins coaches, front office personnel, etc. probably like Tua as a person and don't want to see him permanently disabled anymore than the rest of us do. For all of them to risk the health of someone they presumably like and their own careers is somewhat tough to square. This wasn't the Super Bowl. Throw in Tua being released last night and now people are suggesting doctors in Cincy are apparently in on it too. That's a ton of people that are being charged with extremely reckless disregard for Tua's well being. Maybe that is what happened, but when that many people have to act that nefariously, for limited gain (Tua playing in a single random game) and an enormous downside (loss of medical license for doctors and permanent ostracism from football for the coaches), that doesn't make much sense.
That doesn't explain the medical staff. And not wanting him as your starting QB is completely different than not wanting him to be a vegetable. You really think because they would rather have a starting QB, they are ok killing him? And that sets aside the self preservation angle, since they will be crucified (and rightly so) if it comes out they covered this up.
And, again, I have no idea what happened. Just pointing out the crazy number of people who have to be willing to see a man be permanently disabled for a cover up to be true. Doesn't mean it's not, but that's what it requires.
I understand what you're saying. And I can't say it's out of the realm of possibility. But we're talking about a brain injury, not a high ankle sprain. You really think the Miami doctors, coaches, front office all agreed to expose Tua to life altering injuries if not death because they don't think he's their longterm QB and the Thursday night game against Cincy was just that important?
Doubtful, neurologists (mds) are THE experts at diagnosing TBIs, its easy for a researcher who has superior knowledge of the basic sciences of a subject and disease process to criticize clinicians (neurologists), as he is calling to jail them.... When in reality you put the neuroscientist in a neurology clinic and he will miss TBIs left and right. Also, he is showing a clear lack of objectivity which real clinicians who do not have an agenda have.redag06 said:
Yet he knows more about concussions than the docs the nfl and dolphins are using.
Tua should've never been allowed back in after the hit last week.
Stuff like this will destroy this game.
YesJCA1 said:Know Your Enemy said:I'm stating that they don't seem to think of him as the long term solution so they may be willing to take more risks with his health than someone they do see as the future.JCA1 said:Know Your Enemy said:Don't forget that the Dolphins didn't want Tua. They tried to get Deshaun Watson and Tom Brady but couldn't so Tua was what was left.JCA1 said:
I don't know what to think. To my layman eyes, both of the events look bad and it seems like he was rushed back into playing. Moreover, the league does not have a good track record with health issues generally and concussions specifically.
Having said that, the number of people that would need to be involved for this to be a cover up is difficult for me to wrap my head around. Beginning with last week, it's my understanding that, in addition to the team's medical personnel, the league now requires an independent neurologist to clear them. I also assume that the Dolphins coaches, front office personnel, etc. probably like Tua as a person and don't want to see him permanently disabled anymore than the rest of us do. For all of them to risk the health of someone they presumably like and their own careers is somewhat tough to square. This wasn't the Super Bowl. Throw in Tua being released last night and now people are suggesting doctors in Cincy are apparently in on it too. That's a ton of people that are being charged with extremely reckless disregard for Tua's well being. Maybe that is what happened, but when that many people have to act that nefariously, for limited gain (Tua playing in a single random game) and an enormous downside (loss of medical license for doctors and permanent ostracism from football for the coaches), that doesn't make much sense.
That doesn't explain the medical staff. And not wanting him as your starting QB is completely different than not wanting him to be a vegetable. You really think because they would rather have a starting QB, they are ok killing him? And that sets aside the self preservation angle, since they will be crucified (and rightly so) if it comes out they covered this up.
And, again, I have no idea what happened. Just pointing out the crazy number of people who have to be willing to see a man be permanently disabled for a cover up to be true. Doesn't mean it's not, but that's what it requires.
I understand what you're saying. And I can't say it's out of the realm of possibility. But we're talking about a brain injury, not a high ankle sprain. You really think the Miami doctors, coaches, front office all agreed to expose Tua to life altering injuries if not death because they don't think he's their longterm QB and the Thursday night game against Cincy was just that important?
Wrighty said:Mike McDaniel is that you?MookieBlaylock said:
Dat Nguyen calls it going Cricket- the drama over this one is laughable
Very good, level headed article here
https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/09/30/tua-tagovailoa-concussion-protocol-loophole-exposed
Big picture: NFL covid protocol has 4 components. Tua should have failed the first one due to the significant stumbling and that failure should have been a "no go" call. That was clearly a head injury.
As far as the rest, players that want to get back on the field can fake their way thru a certain amount of the protocol. It's possible he did gather his wits quickly enough to get thru the rest of the tests.
Once a player exits protocol, there's no going back. So nothing on the rules required further evaluation after the game. Very questionable process
https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/09/30/tua-tagovailoa-concussion-protocol-loophole-exposed
Big picture: NFL covid protocol has 4 components. Tua should have failed the first one due to the significant stumbling and that failure should have been a "no go" call. That was clearly a head injury.
As far as the rest, players that want to get back on the field can fake their way thru a certain amount of the protocol. It's possible he did gather his wits quickly enough to get thru the rest of the tests.
Once a player exits protocol, there's no going back. So nothing on the rules required further evaluation after the game. Very questionable process
Know Your Enemy said:YesJCA1 said:Know Your Enemy said:I'm stating that they don't seem to think of him as the long term solution so they may be willing to take more risks with his health than someone they do see as the future.JCA1 said:Know Your Enemy said:Don't forget that the Dolphins didn't want Tua. They tried to get Deshaun Watson and Tom Brady but couldn't so Tua was what was left.JCA1 said:
I don't know what to think. To my layman eyes, both of the events look bad and it seems like he was rushed back into playing. Moreover, the league does not have a good track record with health issues generally and concussions specifically.
Having said that, the number of people that would need to be involved for this to be a cover up is difficult for me to wrap my head around. Beginning with last week, it's my understanding that, in addition to the team's medical personnel, the league now requires an independent neurologist to clear them. I also assume that the Dolphins coaches, front office personnel, etc. probably like Tua as a person and don't want to see him permanently disabled anymore than the rest of us do. For all of them to risk the health of someone they presumably like and their own careers is somewhat tough to square. This wasn't the Super Bowl. Throw in Tua being released last night and now people are suggesting doctors in Cincy are apparently in on it too. That's a ton of people that are being charged with extremely reckless disregard for Tua's well being. Maybe that is what happened, but when that many people have to act that nefariously, for limited gain (Tua playing in a single random game) and an enormous downside (loss of medical license for doctors and permanent ostracism from football for the coaches), that doesn't make much sense.
That doesn't explain the medical staff. And not wanting him as your starting QB is completely different than not wanting him to be a vegetable. You really think because they would rather have a starting QB, they are ok killing him? And that sets aside the self preservation angle, since they will be crucified (and rightly so) if it comes out they covered this up.
And, again, I have no idea what happened. Just pointing out the crazy number of people who have to be willing to see a man be permanently disabled for a cover up to be true. Doesn't mean it's not, but that's what it requires.
I understand what you're saying. And I can't say it's out of the realm of possibility. But we're talking about a brain injury, not a high ankle sprain. You really think the Miami doctors, coaches, front office all agreed to expose Tua to life altering injuries if not death because they don't think he's their longterm QB and the Thursday night game against Cincy was just that important?
You do realize a healthy Tua at the end of the season is probably worth at least 1 first round and probably some 2nd or 3rd picks as well. Which would make the dolphins better. Put a simpler way, Tua as a human capital asset is worth way more than an increased winning chance on a Thursday night game with 3-0 record. This whole he isn't their guy so they don't care is a pretty poor take.
DannyDuberstein said:
Very good, level headed article here
https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/09/30/tua-tagovailoa-concussion-protocol-loophole-exposed
Big picture: NFL covid protocol has 4 components. Tua should have failed the first one due to the significant stumbling and that failure should have been a "no go" call. That was clearly a head injury.
As far as the rest, players that want to get back on the field can fake their way thru a certain amount of the protocol. It's possible he did gather his wits quickly enough to get thru the rest of the tests.
Once a player exits protocol, there's no going back. So nothing on the rules required further evaluation after the game. Very questionable process
It should not be questionable if they are using a tool like impact. That article mentions outdated and subjective concussiom tools. You can't fake balance and vestibulo ocular reflex and reaction times. Especially choice reaction times.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
I am sitting in a Neuro ICU room with my daughter who just had brain surgery a few days ago. She is doing good.
This story about Tua makes me feel sick to my stomach. I can't believe no one stepped in on his behalf. The kid has a huge heart but he career may be over. I think these are not his first concussions but haven't checked.
This story about Tua makes me feel sick to my stomach. I can't believe no one stepped in on his behalf. The kid has a huge heart but he career may be over. I think these are not his first concussions but haven't checked.
Everyone in the country knew they screwed up.
Yeah we all knew it. Sometimes it is as clear as day. https://t.co/dPXqz8bYah
— uSTADIUM (@uSTADIUM) October 1, 2022
I'm not surprised. I'm no neurologist but I've managed a lot of concussions and have been a high school football doc in the past. No way I would have cleared him last week just from the on the field video.redag06 said:
Everyone in the country knew they screwed up.Yeah we all knew it. Sometimes it is as clear as day. https://t.co/dPXqz8bYah
— uSTADIUM (@uSTADIUM) October 1, 2022
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Anyone who thinks Doctors can be fully trusted ain't been paying attention
that doc was just following orders
he's a patsy
he's a patsy
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