Not sure if this is the right place but looking for any feedback/suggestions....

I joined a company about 1.5 years ago and worked all of 2022 in business development (I'm still an employee). I had left another company to take this position as they enticed with what I thought was a good total package $ beyond the number I told them I needed to be at to join. They offered me a base salary, annual bonus, and annual stock. It's a relatively new company (for their US market at least) and they did not have a formal bonus structure in place but my offer said "year-end bonus up to 25% of base salary will be determined based on individual and company's performance". I was told it would be split between my personal sales performance, my US team sales performance, and then the global sales performance. I know I definitely should have had them put better language on the offer on the bonus or got the first year guaranteed, but over the phone it was verbally expected from both my future boss and HR lady that I would receive a bonus each year and my total package was worth $X amount. The exact percentage of the bonus would just depend on revenue.

Well for 2022 the revenue increased by 35% globally (roughly a 50 million dollar increase) over 2021. My teams revenue (just 3 of us) increased 300% in 2022 over 2021 (approximately $2.5 million increase).

However the company stock got absolutely HAMMERED last year for various reasons as it's more of a startup industry and they are burning through a lot of cash on a multi million dollar plant they are building. Apparently profit margins aren't as high as they wanted due to raw material costs but that's not my fault as we are given the prices to sell.

They let us know about a month ago they aren't paying any 2022 bonuses. So they are basically using the stock price as an excuse. Not a dime. The boss that hired me resigned last week (he didn't get a bonus either but claims he left for other reasons). They have several hundred million dollars in cash on their books from investors so they can't say they don't have the money to pay bonuses. This is upwards of $30k cash of my package they are not paying which I never would have even considered taking this position if there was even a remote chance they weren't going to pay any bonus. I ended up making less last year than I have in 10 years because of this.

I won't be staying with this company much longer but I'm wondering if I should fight for this money somehow or if I should avoid burning the bridge as I know they aren't going to pay it because if they pay me they have to pay others.

Run.

There's not much you can do here, a bonus is just that, a bonus. A company isn't legally required to pay out a target bonus for its employees. Just like a company can lower your pay at anytime, suspend 401k/pension, basically whatever they want.

Lesson learned, never count the bonus as part of your total compensation package unless its deposited into your bank account. I've seen too many examples of bonuses not being paid out or only paid out partially. I was expecting a $15k bonus in March + additional stock options, but got laid off in January, and received nothing.

Being overpromised things while interviewing. Story of my life.

Yep, I used to work at company A and my target bonus was like 35%. We never got close, more than half was off the table every year I worked there because of company wide metrics.

Company B had a target of 10%. Every year I was at B I received a higher bonus than I ever received at A.

If someone tries to include bonuses in their total comp calculations I ask HR for historical performance for that roll. I also find any mutual connections I can at the company and ask them (among other things).

htxag09 said:

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Yep, I used to work at company A and my target bonus was like 35%. We never got close, more than half was off the table every year I worked there because of company wide metrics.

Company B had a target of 10%. Every year I was at B I received a higher bonus than I ever received at A.

If someone tries to include bonuses in their total comp calculations I ask HR for historical performance for that roll. I also find any mutual connections I can at the company and ask them (among other things).

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Spot on, and I've had similar experiences. My first year bonus at my last company was supposed to be 10%, and I ended up getting 5% due to company performance. Bonuses are at the company's discretion and can never be counted on.

My last role as a Director had most of its total comp tied up in bonus and stock. The difference in a Manager and Director salary was pretty minimal. I got the bonus 3 years straight but then COVID hit and nada. But the company had the money for things like super bowl commercials, jets, billboards in stadiums and other necessary things.

ea1060 said:

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htxag09 said:

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Yep, I used to work at company A and my target bonus was like 35%. We never got close, more than half was off the table every year I worked there because of company wide metrics.

Company B had a target of 10%. Every year I was at B I received a higher bonus than I ever received at A.

If someone tries to include bonuses in their total comp calculations I ask HR for historical performance for that roll. I also find any mutual connections I can at the company and ask them (among other things).

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Spot on, and I've had similar experiences. My first year bonus at my last company was supposed to be 10%, and I ended up getting 5% due to company performance. Bonuses are at the company's discretion and can never be counted on.

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While I tend to agree, salesman bonuses are a lot different that bonuses for regular employees. In the fifteen previous years I've done sales, I have always received my bonus/commissions and this is through four different companies. It's pretty unheard of to me for a company to not pay their salesman their "bonus". This isn't portrayed as gravy on top of salary, it is part of a salesman's expected pay as long as they perform, which I did.

There's a difference between a bonus and commission....

IDaggie06 said:

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ea1060 said:

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htxag09 said:

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Yep, I used to work at company A and my target bonus was like 35%. We never got close, more than half was off the table every year I worked there because of company wide metrics.

Company B had a target of 10%. Every year I was at B I received a higher bonus than I ever received at A.

If someone tries to include bonuses in their total comp calculations I ask HR for historical performance for that roll. I also find any mutual connections I can at the company and ask them (among other things).

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Spot on, and I've had similar experiences. My first year bonus at my last company was supposed to be 10%, and I ended up getting 5% due to company performance. Bonuses are at the company's discretion and can never be counted on.

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While I tend to agree, salesman bonuses are a lot different that bonuses for regular employees. In the fifteen previous years I've done sales, I have always received my bonus/commissions and this is through four different companies. It's pretty unheard of to me for a company to not pay their salesman their "bonus". This isn't portrayed as gravy on top of salary, it is part of a salesman's expected pay as long as they perform, which I did.

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Like what Htxag said, sounds like you are just getting a normal target bonus, not commission. Im sure there is some legal verbiage in your offer letter that says the bonus is discretionary and not guaranteed. I agree that it sucks the company promised you all of this verbally and you are getting nothing, but it happens and there's not much you can do about it.

Again, a company is not legally required to pay out target bonuses. If you feel differently, then maybe consult an employment attorney and see what they say.

IDaggie06 said:

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Not sure if this is the right place but looking for any feedback/suggestions....

I joined a company about 1.5 years ago and worked all of 2022 in business development (I'm still an employee). I had left another company to take this position as they enticed with what I thought was a good total package $ beyond the number I told them I needed to be at to join. They offered me a base salary, annual bonus, and annual stock. It's a relatively new company (for their US market at least) and they did not have a formal bonus structure in place but my offer said "year-end bonus up to 25% of base salary will be determined based on individual and company's performance". I was told it would be split between my personal sales performance, my US team sales performance, and then the global sales performance. I know I definitely should have had them put better language on the offer on the bonus or got the first year guaranteed, but over the phone it was verbally expected from both my future boss and HR lady that I would receive a bonus each year and my total package was worth $X amount. The exact percentage of the bonus would just depend on revenue.

Well for 2022 the revenue increased by 35% globally (roughly a 50 million dollar increase) over 2021. My teams revenue (just 3 of us) increased 300% in 2022 over 2021 (approximately $2.5 million increase).

However the company stock got absolutely HAMMERED last year for various reasons as it's more of a startup industry and they are burning through a lot of cash on a multi million dollar plant they are building. Apparently profit margins aren't as high as they wanted due to raw material costs but that's not my fault as we are given the prices to sell.

They let us know about a month ago they aren't paying any 2022 bonuses. So they are basically using the stock price as an excuse. Not a dime. The boss that hired me resigned last week (he didn't get a bonus either but claims he left for other reasons). They have several hundred million dollars in cash on their books from investors so they can't say they don't have the money to pay bonuses. This is upwards of $30k cash of my package they are not paying which I never would have even considered taking this position if there was even a remote chance they weren't going to pay any bonus. I ended up making less last year than I have in 10 years because of this.

I won't be staying with this company much longer but I'm wondering if I should fight for this money somehow or if I should avoid burning the bridge as I know they aren't going to pay it because if they pay me they have to pay others.

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Is the entire company not getting their bonus, or just the sales team?

ea1060 said:

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Is the entire company not getting their bonus, or just the sales team?

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I'm not sure if non-sales people in the company have bonuses listed in their offers (highly doubt it). I work remotely so I don't know their situation, just the sales teams. This bonus was supposed to be correlated to sales performance (at least it was verbally).

IDaggie06 said:

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ea1060 said:

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Is the entire company not getting their bonus, or just the sales team?

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I'm not sure if non-sales people in the company have bonuses listed in their offers (highly doubt it). I work remotely so I don't know their situation, just the sales teams. This bonus was supposed to be correlated to sales performance (at least it was verbally).

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Every company I've ever worked for, every bonus eligible employee (including non-sales staff) had the bonus verbiage listed in their offer. I work in HR so I've created tons of offer letters throughout my career. In fact, I just got an offer from a different company and my bonus info was in the offer.

Tell the company that if they don't honor their bonus promise (absent bull**** excuses from corporate) tell them you will alert every local, state, and federal employment authority/agency to investigate the shenanigans. Be sure to tell them that it is in their best interest to pay you out... or pay everyone.

Sure... no one may get paid. However, the thought (threat?) of an agency/authority snooping around for wrongdoing may inspire them to pay up.

Strong-arming an employer? I don't care. They're people screwing other people.

Make some noise.

No way that verbal offer of a bonus payout is binding right?

If it's not in your contract I would assume you are SOL.

Why is there an expectation that a bonus should be guaranteed?

Millions in the bank for a startup is meaningless.

If the company isn't as profitable as projected, investors who are also board members aren't going to be giving out bonuses.

That cash is company runway (ie. remaining days of operation).

aggie_wes said:

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No way that verbal offer of a bonus payout is binding right?

If it's not in your contract I would assume you are SOL.

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Even if the bonus is in your offer letter, the company isn't legally required to pay it out.

..

Did they atleast enroll you in the jelly of the month club? You have a crazy cousin that can go round up that scumbag ceo?

Keep quiet but start actively looking for a job. Once you find one, quit. It's always a bad sign, when an executive just ups and leaves

Story of my life for every company I've worked for.

This is just the last few years:
2017 - $20m (1st year with company and a new territory) - I was given a couple hundred dollars
2018 - $40m (2nd year with new territory for company) - Again a couple hundred dolalrs
2019 - $55m (1st year with new company. Goal was $15m initially and it was changed to $60m in September of that year) - I got a couple hundred bucks.
2020 - covid year, a lot of transitions in the compnay and I didn't have a goal
2021 - $101m - goal was $100m, They adjusted the bonus up a little after I had an adverse reaction to their first offering. I still left soon after.

Started something similar with some old colleagues and we're on our own. My advice is to work out a high salary and forget about bonuses or work on commission. I've been ****ed every year out of what they promised me for every company I've been with. It's just what it is. They do their financial wizardry and come up with a new reason or move the goal posts every year.

I went ahead and put in my notice this week to my boss that I'm resigning. He is trying to get me to stay (none of this bonus issue is his fault as he just came on board several months ago). They would have to come back with something magical for me to consider it.

Good for you. **** them.

aggie_wes said:

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No way that verbal offer of a bonus payout is binding right?

If it's not in your contract I would assume you are SOL.

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I suppose if someone is a softy... has no balls... is immune to broken promi$es... is too weak to stand up for what is theirs... sure... I can see someone pussing out on that.

Not me.

JamesPShelley said:

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aggie_wes said:

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No way that verbal offer of a bonus payout is binding right?

If it's not in your contract I would assume you are SOL.

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I suppose if someone is a softy... has no balls... is immune to broken promi$es... is too weak to stand up for what is theirs... sure... I can see someone pussing out on that.

Not me.

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IDaggie06 said:

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I went ahead and put in my notice this week to my boss that I'm resigning. He is trying to get me to stay (none of this bonus issue is his fault as he just came on board several months ago). They would have to come back with something magical for me to consider it.

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Hope you've got something firm lined up already. As satisfying it is to give the company the middle finger, pride and ego can't pay your bills. And no matter how big of a badass you are, the adage that it's much easier to find a job when you already have one is true, especially in the current environment.

In the future, right before you resign, you should of asked for a retention bonus since the performance bonus was not paid out. I still would have left in your situation however that could of soften the blow for you if the retention language was favorable to you.

HeightsAg said:

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IDaggie06 said:

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I went ahead and put in my notice this week to my boss that I'm resigning. He is trying to get me to stay (none of this bonus issue is his fault as he just came on board several months ago). They would have to come back with something magical for me to consider it.

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Hope you've got something firm lined up already. As satisfying it is to give the company the middle finger, pride and ego can't pay your bills. And no matter how big of a badass you are, the adage that it's much easier to find a job when you already have one is true, especially in the current environment.

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Yea I have ajob lined up. New contract guarantees I will make more per year than current company even if current company paid my bonus in full. I didn't want to change jobs but they financially forced my hand.

What line of work are you in?

Once the trust is permanently broken then there is no point in remaining any longer than you need to.

100%

Even if they paid you, you might be in the same position next year. So if it is important to you, leave,
But I have had no bonus years, as have most people with a bonus structure. It sucks, but the more important question is whether it's one bad year or common practice there.

oragator said:

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Even if they paid you, you might be in the same position next year. So if it is important to you, leave,
But I have had no bonus years, as have most people with a bonus structure. It sucks, but the more important question is whether it's one bad year or common practice there.

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I think the difference here is that I told them when I was interviewing that I was currently making $X amount and would of course need to make more than that each year. They came back saying I would definitely be making more than that but they needed to structure it as a salary and end of year bonus in order for them to get me to my number (yes I'm a dummy for believing them). With them not paying any bonus, I ended up making about 25% less than I did with my previous employer I left them for.